A Question for All of Islam

[Parture]

The Bible says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). That settles it. This is my experience too. The reason a person has to get saved is because they are unsaved. You're never saved first. Otherwise, there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross for your sins. Being born into sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell.

What happens is you are born into sin. God abides in the age of accountability to save that person if they lose their life before that moment because God is a just and fair God. At that very moment of the age of accountability, different for each person, a death sentence is accorded to you and the second death which is Hell unless you respond to God's grace that is sufficient for all which can save you. Jesus said there is no way to the Father accept through the Son, speaking of Himself since He is God.

Nobody is saved [automatically] at the age of accountability. To be saved you must be born-again. If by the end of your life you still have not repented and believed in the Lord Jesus as Savior, you will be eternally separated from God. You've basically said you want to be eternally separated from God, so you send yourself to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. That's very sad. But if that is what you want by rejecting Christ, God will let you have your wish. He must respond righteously. He lets you have your free will. He won't coerce you into loving Him back.

What's interesting to me is that God will not prevent the creation of those who will be saved and love Him on account of those who will refuse His love, mercy and grace. That's an amazing statement to me according to Molinism.

[rakovskii]

PARTURE,

Thanks for your reply. Alot of times we are shy to discuss our Christian faith, so your discussion is special.

You are right that "the Bible says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)." But it seems that this only settles it if one is already sure that the Bible is true.

I am glad if you have had such an experience like you said, but then I think whether you have had such an experience might depend on what you mean by the phrase "they shall never perish."

It makes sense as a matter of simple reason that: "The reason a person has to get saved is because they are unsaved. You're never saved first. Otherwise, there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross for your sins."

On the other hand, I doubt that: "Being born into sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. What happens is you are born into sin."

I highly doubt that humans are born into sin and that original sin is inherited. Such an idea was invented by St Augustine, God Bless him, in Western Christianity in the 4th-5th century. But Ezekiel specifically says that children don't inherit the guilt from their fathers.

Further, it seems like you are simply trying to deal with the moral problems caused by the invented idea that Original Sin is inherited to everyone, even babies who are incapable of understanding basic Christian doctrine, and your view that acceptance of such doctrine is necessary for salvation, when you propose about being "born into sin":

God abides in the age of accountability to save that person if they lose their life before that moment because God is a just and fair God. At that very moment of the age of accountability, different for each person, a death sentence is accorded to you and the second death which is Hell unless you respond to God's grace that is sufficient for all which can save you. Jesus said there is no way to the Father accept through the Son, speaking of Himself since He is God.

I think it is a mystery who God will save, although the Bible does promise that at least those who believe in Christ and do God's Will will be saved at the Judgment.

I also doubt that: "Nobody is saved at the age of accountability." I think it could be that someone could be baptized as a baby and be raised in a Christian family and be in communion with Christ at such an age, assuming that such an age exists.

And while it sounds similar to Christian,, Biblical ideas when you write:

To be saved you must be born-again. If by the end of your life you still have not repented and believed in the Lord Jesus as Savior, you will be eternally separated from God. You've basically said you want to be eternally separated from God, so you send yourself to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. That's very sad. But if that is what you want by rejecting Christ, God will let you have your wish. He must respond righteously. He lets you have your free will. He won't coerce you into loving Him back.

I still think that God's judgment is a mystery. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan, He gave the parable of servants who told the Master that they wouldn't work but did, and He said that He who does the will of His Father in heaven is Christ's relative. Plus, St Paul wrote that the gentiles were a law unto themselves, apparently referring to non-Jewis nonChristians, and made similar statements in the Letter to the Romans.

Also, I am confused when you write: "What's interesting to me is that God will not prevent the creation of those who will be saved and love Him on account of those who will refuse His love, mercy and grace. That's an amazing statement to me according to Molinism."

Wikipedia says "In basic terms, Molinists hold that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creature would freely choose if placed in any circumstance." Well, that makes sense, I am not sure what is new about that, with all due respect.

In conclusion, thanks for writing. After reading your messages and reading articles on the web I have come to believe that the scriptures do prophecy the Messiah's resurrection. I wrote about it on my website rakovskii.livejournal.com and invite you to come and see at your desire and convenience.

Health, Happiness, and Inspiration to you, brother.

[Parture]

You are right that "the Bible says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)." But it seems that this only settles it if one is already sure that the Bible is true.

If you want to alter the preserved word of God then you are not a Christian.

I am glad if you have had such an experience like you said, but then I think whether you have had such an experience might depend on what you mean by the phrase "they shall never perish."

The phrase is as plain as can be those who are saved shall never perish so the saints have confidence in the God we gave our lives will never let us go. You would not have this experience if you didn't give your life to the God who says "they shall never perish." Instead you would always be in doubt and rely on self-strength.

It makes sense as a matter of simple reason that: "The reason a person has to get saved is because they are unsaved. You're never saved first. Otherwise, there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross for your sins."

Obviously.

On the other hand, I doubt that: "Being born into sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. What happens is you are born into sin."

Being born into sin leads to death, as well as the second death if you refuse the grace God has given you to respond to His solution. Calvinists, erroneously, think God provides irresistible grace to force people into salvation and all the rest are not given an opportunity to be saved. what love is that?

I highly doubt that humans are born into sin and that original sin is inherited. Such an idea was invented by St Augustine, God Bless him, in Western Christianity in the 4th-5th century. But Ezekiel specifically says that children don't inherit the guilt from their fathers.

You are not a Christian so you would not believe humans are born into sin and original sin is inherited, but Jesus and disciples and the Old Testament saints said it, so you are not with us. It's easy to figure out, for what human being has never not been selfish or sinned? Augustine was not saved, but he didn't bring about original sin. It is preserved in God's word from the first century. What Augustine invented was the evil Calvinist teachings of irresistible grace, limited atonement and unconditional election. Sounds like you are misreading Ezekiel. What passage are you looking at? "I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children of the their fathers' sin to the third and fourth generations" (Deut. 6.9). We are born into sin: "all flesh born of the flesh is flesh". "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Rom. 15.22).

Further, it seems like you are simply trying to deal with the moral problems caused by the invented idea that Original Sin is inherited to everyone, even babies who are incapable of understanding basic Christian doctrine, and your view that acceptance of such doctrine is necessary for salvation, when you propose about being "born into sin".

Babies are saved and the choice is afforded to them when they reach the age of accountability. However, this is not non-OSAS, but God's justice that babies if they were to die would automatically be saved, developed to the age of accountability in the after life, and presumably be saved. Perhaps God saves them because they were going to accept Jesus anyway in due time. I trust God to work it out properly. You have a moral dilemma because everyone sins yet you don't ascribe a proper cause to this fact. Why not just accept what God's word says we are all born into sin?

I think it is a mystery who God will save, although the Bible does promise that at least those who believe in Christ and do God's Will will be saved at the Judgment.

It is less of a mystery than you think. If you reject original sin for example, you are rejecting the actual sin nature that one needs to be saved from so you remain unsaved.

I also doubt that: "Nobody is saved at the age of accountability." I think it could be that someone could be baptized as a baby and be raised in a Christian family and be in communion with Christ at such an age, assuming that such an age exists.

Nobody is saved automatically at the age of accountability, for that would be irresistible grace which is not taught in Scripture. Rather, the person is afforded the choice at the age of accountability.

And while it sounds similar to Christian,, Biblical ideas when you write:

I still think that God's judgment is a mystery. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan, He gave the parable of servants who told the Master that they wouldn't work but did, and He said that He who does the will of His Father in heaven is Christ's relative. Plus, St Paul wrote that the gentiles were a law unto themselves, apparently referring to non-Jewis nonChristians, and made similar statements in the Letter to the Romans.

The parable of Master is for those who are already saved and their commensurate rewards. Jesus is the good Samaritan. The will of the Father is to accept what He has done for you on the cross for we are all born into sin from the sin of one man. You are like the Gentiles creating laws unto yourself and reject what the word of God clearly says over and over we are all born into sin from the sin of one man. It's really just common sense. If salvation is such a mystery then why does God declare so clearly how to be saved that demystifies it?

Also, I am confused when you write: "What's interesting to me is that God will not prevent the creation of those who will be saved and love Him on account of those who will refuse His love, mercy and grace. That's an amazing statement to me according to Molinism."

Amen.

Wikipedia says "In basic terms, Molinists hold that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creature would freely choose if placed in any circumstance." Well, that makes sense, I am not sure what is new about that, with all due respect.

There is whole field of study that goes deeper into how God does this exactly because many complexities arise when you think about it more. Such terms as "middle knowledge" are used.

The Holy Spirit told me you are not born-again since in your profile you admit you are not sure about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and admit you have not given your life to the God who keeps (OSAS). That's just for starters.

[Churchwork]

You can simplify the Catch-22 for Islam by simply saying:

If Jesus didn't die on the cross then the god of Islam is a liar and a Satanic deceiver who deceived the disciples since the disciples testified about Jesus having said He died and was resurrected when they touched Him and talked with Him about it.

If Jesus didn't prophecy His death and resurrection then the original disciples lied about it, but the Koran says the disciples didn't lie.

Either way you look at it, the Koran is wrong!

People don't willing go to their deaths for what they know is a lie. The disciples were put to death for claiming they had seen Jesus resurrected and salvation is only through Him since He is God.