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Thread: Legalizing the Sabbath - Judaizers

  1. #11
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    You are not a Christian, for you are not loving God. You have replaced Him with the law of the Sabbath, and thus, you worship a false Christ.

    Realize you condemn yourself for being unsaved. You keep saying it is loving to God to keep the law, when God said if you were Christian, you would have died to the law.

  2. #12
    jerusalemcouncil Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    You are not a Christian, for you are not loving God. You have replaced Him with the law of the Sabbath, and thus, you worship a false Christ.

    Realize you condemn yourself for being unsaved. You keep saying it is loving to God to keep the law, when God said if you were Christian, you would have died to the law.
    If Christ is called the Word of God made flesh, then as a Christian, am I not alive to Christ, the Living Word, the Living Torah? So then when I love Christ, do I not then seek to obey Him?

    The very Torah that condemns sinners for their faliure to keep the law, is the Messiah that justifies saints by his obedience to the law.

  3. #13
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    You love a false Christ as much as you love yourself for the Holy Spirit indwelling is now the Sabbath. You can't have both. They are mutually exclusive.

    We are justified by faith, not by works, lest any many should boast.

  4. #14
    jerusalemcouncil Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    You can't have both.... They are mutually exclusive.
    I assume you meant you can't have both Sabbath, and Christ, that they are mutually exclusive. Excuse me then, but what is the Word of God made flesh, if not the Torah which contains the instructions concerning the Sabbath?

    We are justified by faith, not by works, lest any many should boast.
    I'm not talking about justification at all. At all. Period. End of discussion on this matter, please. You have no proof in anything that I've said that I am placing my hope for eternal life in anything other than the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, so why do you keep on approaching me in this way as if I had?

    I am simply talking about what our behavior as Christians should look like as Christians - because we are saved, justified, and sanctified; and I believe this behavior is to look like Christ. Do you agree or disagree?

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    The Holy Spirit indwells to replace Sabbath Hebrews 4 says. Because you replace the Christ with the Sabbath, you look to a false Christ and are rejected by Christians and have no communion with us in the Lord.

  6. #16
    jerusalemcouncil Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    The Holy Spirit indwells to replace Sabbath Hebrews 4 says. Because you replace the Christ with the Sabbath, you look to a false Christ and are rejected by Christians and have no communion with us in the Lord.
    Hebrews 4:1 says "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands"

    If we have already entered his rest, as you assert, then why does the author of Hebrews disagree with you when it says the promise of entering his rest "stills stands"? If it's a promise, it's not something that has been fulfilled. If it was fulfilled, it wouldn't be a promise, but rather it would be something we have.

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    You can still be born-again (Matt. 11.28; Heb. 4.1,3,8-11) which has not yet been fulfilled and may neve be. It's up to you. That's His promise. And Christians have our eternal life and future blessings with Him (Heb. 4.8-11). That's a guarantee!

  8. #18
    jerusalemcouncil Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    You can still be born-again (Matt. 11.28; Heb. 4.1,3,8-11) which has not yet been fulfilled and may neve be. It's up to you. That's His promise. And Christians have our eternal life and future blessings with Him (Heb. 4.8-11). That's a guarantee!
    That's right, it is a guarantee - one that even Moses and King David had by their faith in the Messiah the same as we, yet they kept the law even after they were saved, and they aren't apart from Christ!

    So then if they are with Christ after they had faith in him, and later kept the law, how then can you condemn one who keeps the command to "Love the LORD" through God's strength, and who keeps all His other commandments, including the Sabbath, when they too do it through God's strength?

    If you recall, it was the Pharisees who claimed that Jesus operated in the power of Satan when he was obedient to God. Don't make the same mistake and call all those who claim to keep God's commandments through His strength, as really somehow doing it in their sinful nature, or in Satan's strength. Last I checked, the sinful nature, and Satan want nothing to do with the Law of God, let alone keep it.

  9. #19
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    You are not loving the Lord when you try to keep the Sabbath, because the Sabbath has passed.

    What does Paul teach concerning the Sabbath? He maintains that the Sabbath is a thing that has passed away: “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross . . . Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s” (Col. 2.14,16-17).

    “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord" (Rom. 14.5).

    In the Old Testament time, a person who did not keep the Sabbath day was to be stoned to death. In the New Testament time, the Jews wanted to kill the Lord for His not keeping the Sabbath. They were not able to carry out their plan because miracles through Jesus were definitely being performed. In the days of Paul, the apostle maintained that “every day [was] alike.” Here must have been a change in dispensation. The Sabbath day is a shadow of things to come. There is in the law a portion which serves as type. In the Old Testament, commands to keep the Sabbath day are frequently given. Even in the millennial kingdom the Jews will still offer sacrifices. Yet in the New Testament writings of Paul he did not exhort people to keep the Sabbath day, not even once. It would really be strange if the Sabbath day was to be kept and yet was not mentioned at all. Thus we realize that the dispensation has changed.

    Discussing this is with the burden of the proof on you.

    According to Acts 15.22, at the council in Jerusalem the apostles and elders were all present. If the Sabbath day was important, surely it would have been taken up and decided on by the council. But this was not addressed. For the law and the prophets prophesied until John. Christ is now the sum of the law. Hence in the New Testament there is no command that we need to keep the Sabbath day. In Colossians we are told that the Sabbath day has passed away. Paul also maintained—in Romans 14—that to keep or esteem a day or not is something optional.

  10. #20
    jerusalemcouncil Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post

    According to Acts 15.22, at the council in Jerusalem the apostles and elders were all present. If the Sabbath day was important, surely it would have been taken up and decided on by the council.



    Um, it did talk about the Sabbath, but I'll get to that in a moment.

    If not commiting murder was important, surely it too would have been taken up and decided by the council. With all due respect, your position, though commendable that you are thinking through this, falls in on itself like leaky balloon. For if the Acts 15 judgement was a maximum list of behaviors for Gentiles to do, it is seriously lacking in the most basic of morals. Instead the decision is better understood in context, and for sake of space, I'll cut the chase: it was a decision to limit the obvious pagan behavior of Gentiles so that they COULD go to a synagogue. For Acts 15:21 gives the very reason for the giving of the judgement:

    Acts 15:21
    For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

    Obviously the Jerusalem Council expected the Gentiles to be in the synagogues on the Sabbath. Where else where they to go? The 1st Baptist Church on Main Street?

    The prohibitions given to them, then, if you even know 1st Century Judaism at all, was required for any Gentile to even be allowed in a synagogue. The rest of the Torah, the Council expected the Gentiles to eventually learn (including later Paul as he says to the Romans "I am speaking to men (Romans) who know the Torah" in Romans 7).



    But this was not addressed. For the law and the prophets prophesied until John. Christ is now the sum of the law.


    Christ always WAS the sum of the law. If he's the Word of God, forever, both before the foundation of the world onwards, then there is no "now" to this, as if to say he was somehow "not" before. God does not change. Nor does his Word.

    Hence in the New Testament there is no command that we need to keep the Sabbath day.
    There is no command in the apostolic writings that one should keep from beastiality either. So what is your point? Paul said ALL scripture is useful for doctrine, teaching, correction, and training in right living. This includes the Torah, and the Torah says to keep the Sabbath, and to not have sex with animals.

    In Colossians we are told that the Sabbath day has passed away. Paul also maintained—in Romans 14—that to keep or esteem a day or not is something optional.
    In Col, Paul says no such thing. In Romans 14, the context is food, and thus the "days" in context can only be concerning weekly fast days, not over Sabbath with is an entirely out-of-topic category to bring into the very middle of a discussion over food and eating. And since weekly fast days are not commanded anywhere in the Torah, then they are completely optional.

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