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Thread: Evidence for God

  1. #11
    DD2014 Guest

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    You contradict yourself because you said you "understand" these are not the same kinds of slavery yet you take issue that there was slavery in Israel.
    slave
    –noun 1.a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.2.a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug. 3.a drudge: a housekeeping slave. 4.a slave ant.5.Photography. a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.6.Machinery. a mechanism under control of and repeating the actions of a similar mechanism. Compare master (def. 19).
    –verb (used without object) 7.to work like a slave; drudge.8.to engage in the slave trade; procure, transport, or sell slaves.
    –verb (used with object) 9.to connect (a machine) to a master as its slave.10.Archaic. to enslave.

    I can understand there may be certain degrees of slavery, just like there are certain degrees of murder. So do you justify lesser degrees of murder because one is not as brutal as the last? (do not confuse with manslaughter)

    But the fact remains the same: a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant. = SLAVE (not farm hand)

    I don't care if the Hebrews were enslaved for 430 years. It is wrong
    I don't care if you enslave someone for a day. It is wrong

    God, if anyone should know the difference and not subject anyone to slavery (if indeed it is a sin). Just because the Hebrews have a jubilee every 50 years and let some slaves go, it does not justify the fact that these people were forced to work for them. You claim we practice slavery here today but that is not the case. Slaves are made to work, they don't have a choice. I can quit my minimum wage job, a slave can't.

    You are the one who told me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork
    The human condition has not changed. Remember, these are not words for a particular time or place, but these are eternal words. God has it set in His mind to provide one book for the ages so how will He express it?
    So are we allowed to keep slaves because the human condition has not changed and Gods words are eternal?

    If God expresses his eternal words by enslaving [Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-6, Luke 12:47-48], ordering the deaths of people for expressing their "god given" free-will [Leviticus 21:9, Leviticus 20:10, Leviticus 20:9, Proverbs 20:20, Exodus 21:15], God talking about killing children in and out of the womb. (Prolife?) [Hosea 9:11-16, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Leviticus 26:21-22] More killing and rape [Isaiah 13:15-18, Judges 21:10-24, Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 22:23-24, 2 Samuel 12:11-14]

    I can go on and on but it makes me tired looking for murder, rape and death sentences all day. I think the above proves my point. It is not realistic to put someone to death for adultery or having other gods. So the bible is not "one book for the ages". It was intended for use 2000+ years ago. After all Jesus didn't even full fill his own prophesy in [Matthew 24:25-34] ~34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened~. So the bible was never meant to reach our ears, Jesus was meant to come back around 1920 years ago.

  2. #12
    DD2014 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork
    God does abolish slavery, that is, oppressive slavery.
    Actually its ratification by the requisite three-quarters of the states, the 13th Amendment is formally adopted into the U.S. Constitution on Dec 18, 1865 (not by God, but the amarican people). ensuring that "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude... shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction but not untill 1865.

    If Israel did what you wanted them to do, they would actually lose land and crops because of the Pagan intrusion and confusion. Satan is the author of confusion. Your approach is not progressive but regressive, falling back into darker ages, because Israel would have been overwhelmed and taken advantage of.
    You assume too much. Mabey if the Hebrews didn't kidnapp any of the other pagans to take as slaves they could get along with the them. Instead of putting them to death for worshiping their gods, they could have practiced diplomacy and tolorence. After diplomacy and tolorence comes peace and after peace comes trade. There is more then one way to skin a cat. You don't need to resort to slavery under a supposed "just" God. If he can create everything you would think he could find a peaceful way to help his "chosen" people that does not involve slavery.

    Today you can be a fortune teller and a medium, but you won't be put to death for it, though this sin leads to death, for it is a lie and a lie is not healthy for your spirit, soul and body.
    First, you have no evidence that supports your claim that sin is bad for your health. Life leads to death. Not sin. Even Jesus (who is claimed to be without sin) died. You could go your whole without sinning and you will still die.
    Example: A person who is a murderer walks across the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
    Now a one year old child (who does not know what sin is) walks into the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
    Now who lived longer? obviosly the criminal and it had nothing to do with what sins he has commited.
    Your claim does not hold water.

    It is illogical to apply today's standards to then, and I think that is disingenuous of you. If I may say, it is like you are sitting on a pedestal judging how God is dealing with difficult times in history from an improved conscience today
    If it is illogical then don't claim:
    ...these are not words for a particular time or place, but these are eternal words. God has it set in His mind to provide one book for the ages so how will He express it?
    Do you see now that it is illogical to follow a book that is out dated by over 2000 years?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD2014 View Post
    So are we allowed to keep slaves because the human condition has not changed and Gods words are eternal?

    So the bible is not "one book for the ages". It was intended for use 2000+ years ago. After all Jesus didn't even full fill his own prophesy in [Matthew 24:25-34] ~34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened~. So the bible was never meant to reach our ears, Jesus was meant to come back around 1920 years ago.
    Slavery of the kind in Scripture under Israel is not for today, for that was under the Old Covenant, under the law. It ended with Christ when He came to fill up the law. Read Matthew 5-7 on how this filling up works.

    Matt. 24.25-34 is fulfilled at the end of this age and when Christ returns. Obviously this generation still exists. The problem is how you are reading the word "generation".

    v.25 “Behold, I have told you beforehand”—How precious are these words, because the Lord foretells to us the things at the end. Is it not great to know future things? We may thus escape the unexpected. Unfortunately, saints fail to treasure these words. Whenever the Scriptures use the term “Behold” it suggests that something important will follow. Accordingly, we know the significance here of this Olivet prophecy. The word of prophecy, we are told, is likened to a lamp shining in a dark place (2 Peter 1.19). Neglecting it, one may easily fall into darkness. Many nowadays look upon society, nation, or the world with great expectation and hope. How misplaced is such hope. And this is because they lack the shining lamp. The Lord has told us beforehand. If we suffer at the end, we ourselves will be held responsible.

    v.26 False Christs (and false prophets) have already been mentioned or alluded to several times (see verses 5,11,23,24). Here they are again alluded to in order to show how serious the situation is. “The wilderness” speaks of any place that is separated from the general intercourse with the world. While John the Baptist was in the wilderness he was asked if he were the Christ. “Inner chambers” denote a secret place, that which is not open to the public. Human psychology is such that it attaches great power and attraction to anything secretive. Yet the moment something becomes open, it loses its power. Did not the Corinthian believers, for example, despise Paul, saying that “his bodily presence is weak, and his speech of no account” (2 Cor. 10.10)?

    v.27 “Lightning” flashes in the sky and everybody sees it, whereas by contrast “the wilderness” is hidden from many eyes. The Lord’s appearing is absolutely open. He shall come in the cloud. If anyone suggests that the Lord will come to the earth stealthily, do not believe him. Nevertheless, the first rapture does happen secretly, and the Lord’s coming from the throne to the air is also in secret. Just as the lightning is first hidden in the clouds until the time of its flashing in the sky, so Christ will hide himself in the cloud until the right moment for His appearing (see Rev. 1.7, Acts 1.11). According to the record of the book of Acts, at His ascension the Lord was first taken up without any cloud, and only then was He received by a cloud. Even so shall be His coming again, except the order will at that time be reversed. First, He will be hidden by the cloud (which will include the rapture), and next will He appear publicly (by that time all the saints will have been raptured before His appearing). So that what we are waiting for in parousia is not the coming but the going.

    v.28 “Carcase” and “eagles”—The word “carcase” is commonly interpreted as representing “Christ” and the term “eagles” as symbolizing Christians. According to this interpretation, this has reference to the breaking of bread, in that after the death of Christ the Christians eat His flesh. But such interpretation is not only untrustworthy, it is also absurd; it even borders on blasphemy. For the Scriptures speak of the life of the Lord as well as the death of the Lord. The One in whom we believe is the Lord who was dead and has been resurrected: for “if Christ hath not been raised,” says Paul, “then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain” (1 Cor. 15.14). Furthermore, a “carcase” (or corpse) decays and stinks (see John 11.39). Thus this word cannot point to Christ.

    How, then, should this word be explained? (a) A corpse plus life equals a living person; a living person minus life equals a corpse—so that “carcase” here represents that which has no life, which in other words stands for all who are in Adam (see 1 Cor. 15.22). Believers are no longer in Adam; having received new life, they cannot be called by this term “carcase”: instead, they are called the body of Christ. When they break the bread, they are not dividing up the Lord’s corpse; for the Lord says, “This is my body” (and where there is life, such is not a corpse). (b) A corpse stinks as it decays (John 11.39 mg.; 1 Cor. 15.50,53 ). That is why a man is buried after he dies (see Gen. 23.4). Hence “carcase” here also signifies the decay of those dead in Adam.

    The word “eagles” has several applications in the Bible: (a) The people of God. See Isaiah 40.31 and Deuteronomy 32.11. These two passages lay stress on the flying of the eagles. (b) In Leviticus, an eagle is classified as an abomination among the birds (11.13), for it devours dead flesh (see Rev. 19.17-18, 21b). The devouring of corpses by eagles (“all the birds that fly in mid heaven”) as told in Revelation signifies God’s judgment; so too is it here in Matthew. Wherever the corruption of the dead in Adam is, there also is the judgment of God. (Both the words “eagles” and “carcase” are interpreted spiritually here because the word “lightning” in the preceding verse is used in parabolic fashion too).

    v.29 The words “immediately after” are most important in fixing the time. The sun and the moon and the stars should be taken literally. Some try to explain them symbolically as kings, princes and chief captains being shaken; but such an interpretation is unacceptable; because were this the case, the sun and moon and stars would have had to have been shaken before the appearing of the Lord.

    The distress mentioned here in Matthew 24.29 is the same as that spoken of in Revelation 6.12-13—except that the time is different. In Revelation we notice that all seven seals (of which these celestial phenomena are the consequences of the sixth seal) are broken at the beginning of the Tribulation, with the seals then followed by further and greater trials in the trumpets and bowls; but here these same celestial things occur after the Tribulation: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days”; hence at the beginning of the Great Tribulation there is a change in these celestial bodies, and likewise at the end of the Tribulation there is still another celestial catastrophe. What we find stated in Joel 2.31 is the same as the sixth seal in Revelation 6, for Joel plainly mentions that these things will occur “before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh” (2.31b). Matthew, though, clearly states that such phenomena will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (24.29). These changes in celestial bodies must therefore happen twice.

    v.30 “Then” is the time after what is described in verse 29 has happened. We do not know what will be this sign of the Son of man. The familiar views are: (a) the Lord himself—but this is unacceptable since the Lord declares explicitly “the sign of the Son of man” and not the Son of man himself; and (b) the cross—with this being based on the sign of Jonah which the Lord gave to the scribes and the Pharisees as noted in Matthew 12. Although this is a definite possibility, we do not have a full conviction that it is so. Consequently, we will reserve our judgment on this view. One thing we do know, however, is that this sign must be something supernatural and mysterious.

    “In heaven”—Since the sign appears in heaven, all the tribes of the earth shall see it. “All the tribes of the earth” refers to the twelve tribes of Israel. They shall mourn and weep (see Zech. 12.10-14).

    “With power and great glory”—At His first coming, the Lord manifested both great authority (in that He cast out demons and healed the sick) and glory. At His second coming, He will manifest power and glory. At His first coming, people marveled at His teaching and authority (Matt. 7.28). The Pharisees questioned Him as to the source of His authority (Matt. 21.23). A centurion believed in His authority (Matt. 8.8-9). But at His second coming, He will not only manifest authority but also power. He will not ride on a colt (as the Prince of Peace) but will ride instead on a white horse. Power is used in executing the judgment of God. In the future Satan will greatly increase his lawless works; so the Lord will destroy him with power. The difference between power and authority may be illustrated by the driving of a car (power) in contrast to the directing given by a policeman (authority). At His first coming our Lord healed the sick, cast out demons, and calmed the storm—all these being demonstrations of authority. Even when He overturned tables and drove out sheep and oxen with a scourge of cords, He did not use the whip on men. Only at His second coming will He exercise such power.

    v.31 This verse is the fulfillment of Matthew 23.39: “Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”—After the Great Tribulation, the Lord will “gather together His elect”: the “elect” or “chosen” are the Jews who are scattered among the nations. “From the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”—This does not denote rapture, for here it is the idea of erchomai, not parousia. Here is a gathering together (see Deut. 30.3-5). After the destruction of Jerusalem, the Jews were either killed or captured. They were scattered to the nations. Now, the Lord begins to call them back (see Is. 43.5-7). They shall return from the east, the west, the north, and the south. Some shall even come from the land of Sinim (Is. 49.9-13). Now Sinim means China, and in Hunan province there is a large number of Jews, who, incidentally, take the family name of Tsan. See also Isaiah 49.22-26, 51.11, 56.8, 60.4, 62.10-12, 27.13; Ezekiel 34.13, 37.21, 28.25. “From the four winds”—Wind is moving all the time: the Jews have no settled place in which to live but wander all over the world.

    The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews.


    Jesus’ End-Time Prophecy, Part Two: Concerning the Church 24.32-25.30

    A. LESSONS FROM THE FIG TREE AND THE DAYS OF NOAH, 24.32-42

    v.32 The word “now” marks the beginning of the second part. Since the Lord gives this part of His prophecy on the Mount of Olives—a place where there are many fig trees —He quite naturally could use the fig tree as an illustration. “When her branch is now become tender”—This speaks of the return of life. “And putteth forth its leaves”—This means the manifestation of life. The fig tree represents the Jews (Jer. 24.2,5,8). Earlier the Lord had cursed the fig tree which possessed only leaves but had no fruit. In reality the curse was upon the Jews who possessed the outward rituals but had no reality. “Summer” is the season of growth as winter is the season of withering and death. In the summer, life shows its greatest vigor, the air is warm, and the days are bright. It is a golden season, and therefore it stands for the kingdom. The Jews today are in the winter time. Winter points to tribulation, particularly the Great Tribulation. Spring speaks of rapture (see S.S. 2.10-14); summer speaks of the kingdom (see Luke 21.30-31). In Luke 21.29-30 we have the words “and all the trees”—which phrase represents the nations (see Daniel 4.10-17 and Judges 9.8-15). When “all the trees ... now shoot forth” (Luke 21.29-30), this is a signifying that nationalism will have been greatly developed among many peoples and nations.

    v.33 Let us understand that the preceding verses 4-31 form a part and are not a break with what follows; and hence the thoughts in the earlier part are continuous into the next. The major difference between 24.4-31 and 24.32-25.46 lies in this: that the one part speaks about the Jews while the other part speaks about the church.

    “All these things”—Such words should be connected with 23.36 (“All these things shall come upon this generation”), with 24.6 (“these things”), and with 24.8 (“all these things”). “All these things” have reference to the beginning of tribulation, as reflected in such things as false Christs, wars, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, and so forth.
    “He is nigh”—“It is nigh” (mg.) is the more accurate rendering of this phrase in the Greek text. The “it” points to the kingdom. The kingdom is near, “even at the doors”: this agrees with Luke—“Even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh” (21.31).


    v.34 “This generation”—The Greek text is genea, not aion. The Chinese deem 30 years to be a generation; the West reckons 40 years as such. Neither calculation is applicable here, for had it been either case, all these things would have had to have been fulfilled in the lifetime of those living at the time of Matthew and thus all would have become past history. On the basis of such an interpretation (that is, that the meaning of “generation” is in terms of a given period of years) the historians maintain that Matthew 24 is already past: they argue that Titus destroyed Jerusalem exactly 40 years after the Lord had spoken these words recorded here in verse 34 and that therefore the word “generation” is here used in its most general sense.

    Some try to avoid the problem by changing “generation” into “race”—the race of the Jewish people. But this is unlikely because (1) Matthew 1.17 says, “So all the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations”; (2) we must not alter a word simply because of a difficulty, and (3) had this word been “race” in its translation, then such an explanation would mean that the Jewish race has the possibility of being destroyed since the Lord in fact declares that “this generation shall not pass away till all these things be accomplished” (v.34).

    How, then, should genea be explained? We should try to find the clue from the Old Testament:

    “Thou wilt keep them, O Jehovah, thou wilt preserve them from this generation for ever” (Ps. 12.7). This is a generation not in terms of a physical, but a moral, relationship.

    “They are a perverse and crooked generation” (Deut. 32.5). The genea (Hebrew, dor) here is not 30 or 40 years or even a lifetime. As long as perversity and crookedness last, just so is the duration of that generation.

    “For they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faithfulness” (Dent. 32.20). The generation continues as long as unfaithfulness persists.

    “There is a generation that curse their father, and bless not their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet are not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, oh how lofty are their eyes! And their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men” (Prov. 30.11-14). Obviously, such a generation is not limited to a few decades or a lifetime; rather, it points to a period marked by certain immoral characteristics.

    We may receive further light from the Gospel of Matthew itself:

    “But whereunto shall I liken this generation. . .?” (11.16-19).

    “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet . . . The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here” (12.39,41).

    “The queen of the south shall rise in the judgment with this generation . . . Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation” (12.42,45 ).

    “All these things shall come upon this generation” (23.36).

    This evil generation will last just as long as evil and adultery remain. Hence the meaning of genea in 24.34 is a period of time characterized by evil, adultery, perverseness, and crookedness. Such a period has not yet passed away, and will pass away only after all these things are accomplished.

    “This generation” includes three classes of people: (1) the Gentiles who worship idols and reject God; (2) those Jews who reject Christ; and (3) the apostates—the so-called modernists. Before all these people pass away, all these things will be accomplished. The Lord will come and destroy them. Before the coming of the kingdom, all these things shall be fulfilled.
    We should thus see the distinction among these three Greek words used in the Bible: kosmos is the world, aion is the age, and genea is the generation.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DD2014 View Post
    You assume too much. Mabey if the Hebrews didn't kidnapp any of the other pagans to take as slaves they could get along with the them.
    It's hard to get along with these tribes when they are always attacking you and practicing human and child sacrifices. Suffice it to say you lose, because Israel remains, and your no longer existent nations you are defending have ceased to exist permanently.

    First, you have no evidence that supports your claim that sin is bad for your health. Life leads to death. Not sin. Even Jesus (who is claimed to be without sin) died. You could go your whole without sinning and you will still die.
    Example: A person who is a murderer walks across the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
    Now a one year old child (who does not know what sin is) walks into the street and is hit by a bus. He dies.
    Now who lived longer? obviosly the criminal and it had nothing to do with what sins he has commited.
    Your claim does not hold water.
    If you smoke too much, drink too much, for example, the probability of you dying increases. No human being has not sinned which is the cause of your death. Jesus didn't die for the same reason you will die. He died for your sins. The person who hits another person and the latter dies is sin related. Since no human being is sinless, however that death comes about ultimately is irrelevant to prove the point sin leads to death. Some people do get hit the crossfire, but that death will not prevent them from being saved, for God would not let anyone die a premature death who could have been saved. He accounts for all things even every last hair on your head.

    While Christians have already died in Christ and shall be resurrected at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.15-17) together with the Saints of Old, you will die in your sins and be resurrected a thousand years after to be judged by God at Great White Throne and to be cast into eternal damnation, an eternal separation from God and awareness of your wrong choice for forever.

    "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20.5).

    "And death and hades [place of timeless unawares where you await resurrection and where the Rich Man is in the bad side of Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.14-15).

    If it is illogical then don't claim: Do you see now that it is illogical to follow a book that is out dated by over 2000 years?
    It's all in how you are reading with a fleshly mind, missing the original intent. You can still learn spiritual principles from the Old Covenant even though we are no longer under the law. Understand the principle behind circumcision, for example, for it is representing the flesh being irredeemable, and its only verdict is death. That is why you die on the cross with Christ to put to death your old man and having put to death the old man in you, you have true power over the flesh to put to naught the deeds of the flesh. But of course, to die on the cross with Christ, you must believe in what He did for you to receive forgiveness of sins; otherwise, you surely will go to Hell which speaks of your person.

    Do you see how it is illogical to misread the original intent? At the very least never think the Bible was written just for a time, but it was clearly for the ages. All 66 books. The reason for 66 books is because Isaiah had 66 chapters and he was the greates prophet of the OT, but also because 6 is the number of Satan and it is also the number of man (shown in various ways through Scripture), and the Bible is the Redemptive Design showing how to break this union you share with him.

  5. #15
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    It's hard to get along with these tribes when they are always attacking you and practicing human and child sacrifices.
    So did the Hebrews;)

    Jephthah Burns His Daughter

    "At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

    "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

    Burn Nonbelievers

    "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

    God Commands Burning Humans

    [The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

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    This particular sacrifice was a sin, an improper vow, that was lamented. It was a turning away from the standard of that day of human sacrifices. Like Isaac was to be sacrificed then spared to show a better way, while the tribes surrounding Israel kept on sacrificing their children into the fiery mouth of the Molech god.

    Israel was assigned to wipe these Nations out because God knew they would not stop that practice. Their evil was so great, the question that comes to my mind is, Why do you defend them? They don't even exist anymore.

    [The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
    What was to be set apart for God was stolen by some people in Israel with grave consequences. Criminal behavior is dealt with. If they were not killed, the problem would get worse and Israel could not be preserved for God's purposes to bring in the Messiah. It always comes back to the Messiah who is our burnt offering. Of course, we deal with things differently today because we are no longer under the law but the Spirit of the law. I think it would help you a lot to realize God's response is commensurate with the condition of man's heart. The exponential progression of conscience is increasing so there is a different response by God under the New Covenant. Can you see that?

    Quote Originally Posted by DD2014
    Well I guess I am what you would call Anti - Religious. I belive in looking at the facts and not in blind faith. I left the Church because of many reasons but the big 3 I guess would be, (1) All the inconsistencies in the bible (2) Intolerance (3) The lack of Evidence for the existence of God.

    I really want to understand what drives people to belive the things that are in the bible, and in the people that teach them.
    I believe you don't like to look at the facts, nor are you coming to the table with an honest heart (it's a dishonest heart), but rather seek only to rationalize your own blind faith which is a religiosity of self, hostility and independency to God, and effectively eternal separation from God. You never were in Church, for the Bible teaches once-saved-always-saved. You ought to know this already since it is clearly stated in Scripture. Realize when you are contradicting yourself. If you were genuine, you would admit you never were in the Church. Here is your problem:

    1) Everything that you thought was an inconsistency has been shown to be consistent which you present no challenge with any reply.
    2) You haven't shown any Christians being intolerant to you. However, you must appreciate a certain distance a Christian should keep themselves from you, because you are unhealthy to be around, just like it is unhealthy to let a rapist near his potential victims. God said don't be unequally yoked with non-believers. In the end you are going to Hell, already condemned (John 3.18), for if you were to die this moment, you would surely be resurrected for Hell at the end the 1000 years.
    3) You could not refute the evidence given for God that nothing in nature happens all by itself, nor present any challenge to the exponential progression of conscience, disallowing an eternity of the past of cause and effects in the 4 Step Proof for God.

    Therefore, all you have is your blind faith which brings you to Hell. How sad for you.

  7. #17
    DD2014 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    You never were in Church, for the Bible teaches once-saved-always-saved. You ought to know this already since it is clearly stated in Scripture.
    Their is a problem with that 'cause If I no longer belive in "God", the Bible or Jesus then why would I still belive once-saved-always-saved? That is stupid. Look if it makes you feel better then you are right I NEVER WAS IN ANY CHURCH AND NEVER WILL BE.

    But you still must realize the contradiction you made. If I did once belive then I must always be saved. So please stop being a hyopcrite and telling me I'm going to hell. Because according to your "God" I WON"T

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    The problem is you are being inconsistent. By saying you once believed in God you would have to admit you believed in once-saved-always-saved, but actually you did not otherwise you would never leave, for true salvation is a choice for forever. Therefore, whatever you were involved in was false to begin with. You said you were in the Church and you said you never were in any Church. You are a never ending contradiction all the way to Hell.

    You are going to Hell because you were never saved and never want to be apparently. According to God you will, therefore, go to Hell. You're just a bad guy, that's all, on his way to Hell. Nothing new under the son. But how sad for you to be eternally separated from God. The life you live now is a foretaste of Hell.

    Remember, to believe in Christ, once-saved-always-saved, is not to then deny Christ and think you are still saved so you won't go to Hell. How absurd! Rather, you never believed in the Christ to begin with, but it was a false Christ. Do you see that?

  9. #19
    onlytruth Guest

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    dd2014
    you are asking the right questions...God is not offended or scared(organized religion is)
    seek him out he will show himself
    blessings:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlytruth View Post
    dd2014 you are asking the right questions...God is not offended or scared(organized religion is) seek him out he will show himself blessings
    Whether the organized religion of atheism or Christendom is scared or not, I believe DD2014 is not asking the right questions because he gives a list of 42 alleged contradictions elsewhere, avoids the response given by Crispus then lists a bunch more in other threads jumping around like a banshee. What makes you think the 1000th or 10,000 alleged contradiction is going to make a difference when to prove Jesus is God by His resurrection does not depend on demanding inerrancy, so to attack inerrancy in no way refutes the resurrection accounts by the eyewitnesses.

    Since Paul said he met James, Peter and John who said they saw Jesus resurrected also, let this be the proof, for people don't die for something they know to be a lie and group hallucinations are impossible.

    This is called the Minimal Facts Approach I first learned about by Gary R. Habermas. In other words, you only need concern yourself with what Jesus said would be the best proof of Him being God. You can worry about other issues later.

    Since the Bible warns about greater Christendom in Matt. 13 and Rev. 17 and against denominations, it really should not be an issue for you there are many false Christians. Just as the evil spirit works in the world so he tries to work within the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven. That's no reason to reject Christ.

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