Im sorry but he doesn't. Theres so much evidence that backs earth and all the other planets hundreds of millions of years. I have yet to see any evidence of god. Good bye.
Evidence for God
Im sorry but he doesn't. Theres so much evidence that backs earth and all the other planets hundreds of millions of years. I have yet to see any evidence of god. Good bye.
Apostle for a region
There is no evidence for a god, I do agree. But God is proven. How? By the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself. If nothing in nature can happen all by itself, then nature can't cause itself and must be caused by the only remaining possibility that which is uncaused. God is the uncaused creator and intelligent designer. Take for example a cell that is so complex scientists are still amazed by all its different working components like a very complex piece of machinery that needs to be put together.
The Bible simply says look at the mountains and the stars and ask yourself, did you do that? No of course not. God did it!
Since the earth and all the other planets have developed over 13.7 billion years, this agrees completely with Gen. 1.1 that God created perfectly. It doesn't say how long God took to create only that it did take.
God is impossible
Proving a Universal Negative
It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.
Defining "God"
Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.
Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
Perfection Begets Imperfection
But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
The Freewill Argument
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering
God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born, and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
Belief More Important Than Action
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
Perfection's Imperfect Revelation
The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.
No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
Contradictory Justice
One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.
Contradictory History
The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?
The Omniscient is Surprised
A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.
We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.
The Conclusion of the matter
I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.
Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:
"You are a fool for denying the existence of the invisible pink unicorn. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."
If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.
As for me, I shall choose reality.
Apostle for a region
Most Christians I know don't make this claim.Originally Posted by DD2014
Then an atheist ought not to take the position they need to know everything to know if God exists, but simply accept the overwhelming evidence for God's existence and realizing their own contradictions for believing in atheism.In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.
To do nothing, desire nothing, need nothing is a standard you place upon God that is less than for us, for we do things, desire and need. A false god perhaps would claim to just exist and need nothing, but a perfect God can't help but create out of His glory as He is a personal Being who wants fellowship which He has with Himself in the 3 Persons, but even more with man created in His image. It is His prerogative when to create, what to create and how. You can place no demands on God as to creating for He is infinitely greater and wiser than you.Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
You can raise your own children perfectly and they can still refuse that perfect treatment. If they didn't have the choice to rebel, they would not be made in God's image. God doesn't create robots, for He can do better than that. Your mistaken assumption is the perfectly created human cannot become imperfect. That he did shows if anything he is not God, so he needs God's redemptive design God so mercifully provides.Perfection Begets Imperfection
What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
To not have free-will is not to be made in God's image and God will not do lesser than creating man in His image. If you can bake a 5 layer cake for a wedding, but only build a 2 layer cake, the bride and groom won't be very happy with you, nor will you be satisfied in falling short of what you could have accomplished. Furthermore, you can't have authentic relationship with robots. God is not a dullard like atheists. There is the additional problem that since we do exist and we do have free-will, the atheist has a doublestandard because he is blaming naturalism, nonetheless, for the human condition.The Freewill Argument
The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Then it is not true free-will with the full gambit of options.Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Because this shows they are not God. This takes humility to accept though.Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
The point remains: imperfections can occur in a perfectly created being because of their own free-will.The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
God will never prevent the creation of a soul He wants fellowship with who shall be saved because of another soul who eternally damns himself by his own volition.All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering
Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born, and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
The sin to eternally reject God is not a finite sin. You are beginning to see all your assumptions are presumptuous.Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
A person doesn't actually have to read the Bible to be saved. For example, a person on a remote island who rejects the idols of worship of his people, but believes in the God who created those stars and mountains would surely accept Jesus Christ. God provides this common grace, but also His special grace through the Scriptures.Belief More Important Than Action
Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
My prayer is you begin to see how your misreading of the Bible is your downfall. Mistaken assumptions are keeping you separated from God.
If these books are indecipherable, how come I understand them so easily? The Holy Spirit has amalgamated all 66 books. Praise the Lord! God has graced you with a spirit of God-consciousness to know God exists, so you ought to believe in Him. But because He is so gracious, He provides His clear Word even more, so you have no excuse in your assumptions.Perfection's Imperfect Revelation
The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.
To disallow someone the choice to want to be eternally separated from God is coercion and that would be evil. God is not responsible for your choice to go to Hell. You are. He is just giving you what you want and provides you that abode.
I don't know any Christians who disagree with the meaning of the essential doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I find no self-contradictory statements or obscurity or symbols that are not explained at least somewhere. So there is no paradox. Yes, there are some complexities, but would you expect anything less from an eternally great God? Since you can find no perversion and imperfection, what's the problem? God has revealed Himself directly to you, because you know the universe can't create itself; hence, it was created by that which is uncreated, God Almighty.No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
Satan deals in vagaries, but I would be happy to discuss where you think you are reading into Scripture these beliefs of yours to show if they are assumptions.Contradictory Justice
It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.
You realize Christian scholars have done a through investigation of all alleged contradictions to show there are none. Have you studied up on this one to know their answer given? Could there be something you overlooked?Contradictory History
The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?
You can have emotions in response to events that are yet to take place that you know will happen. What do you think God is surprised about?The Omniscient is Surprised
A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.
Just like God can't make a circle square, He cannot do many alleged things. That God lacks nothing doesn't remove Him from His desire to solve problems. You could be a perfectly satisfied at some job, but that doesn't mean you don't desire to solve other matters. Since we are made in God's image with emotion, why would God be any lesser than us by being without emotion? Surely, God's standards are higher than ours.We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.
But that would be a contradiction on your part because you said it is "impossible...the existence of...invisible pink unicorns." Remember what you said before about contradictions? Why do not you abide in your own claim against contradictions?I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn
You pink invisible unicorn being both pink and invisible is a contradiction. Seems sorta dumb to me to invoke a contradiction for your arguments.
Perhaps you should consider choosing reality and not contradictions.
I am merely stating that in a logical universe something that is self-contradictory cannot exist.Then an atheist ought not to take the position they need to know everything to know if God exists, but simply accept the overwhelming evidence for God's existence and realizing their own contradictions for believing in atheism.
And what contradictions do I belive in, or were you just assuming?
Exactly, he wants. He had an infinite eternity with Himself in the 3 Persons, and yet all of the sudden he wants more. To me it sounds like he is lacking something, and if you want or need something that you do not have, you don't sound very perfect. It sounds more like boredom to me. If you are bored, you are lacking something, if you are lacking something you are not perfect....but a perfect God can't help but create out of His glory as He is a personal Being who wants fellowship which He has with Himself in the 3 Persons, but even more with man created in His image. It is His prerogative when to create, what to create and how.
I don't belive that a person could raise "perfect" children. You may belive that you did, but it is not the case, because you are not perfect and you children will pick up on your imperfections which makes your parenting imperfect (If you have raised perfect kids let me know, that info is priceless).You can raise your own children perfectly and they can still refuse that perfect treatment. If they didn't have the choice to rebel, they would not be made in God's image. God doesn't create robots, for He can do better than that. Your mistaken assumption is the perfectly created human cannot become imperfect. That he did shows if anything he is not God, so he needs God's redemptive design God so mercifully provides.
I did not assume that perfectly created humans cannot become imperfect. It is illogical for a perfect God to create humans that are imperfect (ie: genocide, rape, sickness).
True. But he could have not created evil options for us to choose. Its like putting a plate of cookies in front of a 3 year old and telling her "don't eat the cookies or I'll spank you" and then leave the room for an hour. What will happen? 3 year old eats cookies, you spank and it was all for nothing. You could have eliminated the stupidity of hitting your kid by not putting cookies in front of her (even imperfect parents know this, but not God?).Then it is not true free-will with the full gambit of options.
I guess your right. If God did not give us the free-will then we wouldn't have had the pleasure of watching Hitler kill 11 million people or the atom bomb killing tens of thousands of civilians ect.To not have free-will is not to be made in God's image and God will not do lesser than creating man in His image. If you can bake a 5 layer cake for a wedding, but only build a 2 layer cake, the bride and groom won't be very happy with you, nor will you be satisfied in falling short of what you could have accomplished.
But if God had made a 10 layer cake we wouldn't be having this discussion.
No offence or anything. But if God can accomplish anything, he could have done a much better job with us.
That makes sense.Because this shows they are not God. This takes humility to accept though.
Kind of off topic but, if we are made in Gods image what is God? Black, white, asian ect.
Which would make them imperfect. After Adem and Eve we are supposedly born imperfect because of the "original sin" we did not make that choise but we are still imperfect by no choise of our own. If our soul's are created by God and they are imperfect then God has created something imperfect.The point remains: imperfections can occur in a perfectly created being because of their own free-will.
Again he could have eliminated evil from the universe and skiped the whole suffering on earth dilemma. Or he also could have just created us in heaven, his son would never have to die and no one would go to hell.God will never prevent the creation of a soul He wants fellowship with who shall be saved because of another soul who eternally damns himself by his own volition.
So you are assuming that when he rejected his native God/Gods he will just magically belive in your God? Someone who does not know of God obviously does not share your "common grace", if they did missionarys would not be needed....a person on a remote island who rejects the idols of worship of his people, but believes in the God who created those stars and mountains would surely accept Jesus Christ. God provides this common grace, but also His special grace through the Scriptures.
Well if you understand the bible and Gods word is so clear, perhaps you could explain some of it for me. (will PM you, getting tired)If these books are indecipherable, how come I understand them so easily? The Holy Spirit has amalgamated all 66 books. Praise the Lord! God has graced you with a spirit of God-consciousness to know God exists, so you ought to believe in Him. But because He is so gracious, He provides His clear Word even more, so you have no excuse in your assumptions.
Actually the 66 books of the bible were amalgamated first by Jewish rabbis and scholars, and then later by early Christians. I donno about the whole God-consciousness thing as I cannot speak for everyone, but I can tell you for sure I do not have it or we would not be having this discussion.
(Again, I will PM you)I don't know any Christians who disagree with the meaning of the essential doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I find no self-contradictory statements or obscurity or symbols that are not explained at least somewhere. So there is no paradox. Yes, there are some complexities, but would you expect anything less from an eternally great God? Since you can find no perversion and imperfection, what's the problem?
Satan deals in vagaries, but I would be happy to discuss where you think you are reading into Scripture these beliefs of yours to show if they are assumptions.
And I'll cover the rest tomorrow. G'nite
Apostle for a region
Since you can find no contradictions about God then you shouldn't have an issue. Furthermore, you can't resolve the contradiction of believing in atheism while the universe can't cause itself nor have always been existing. Why don't you abide in your proclamation not to contradict? That is a doublestandard, not treating others as you would like to be treated.
You're questioning God's prerogative, which you can do, but you certainly can't doubt, for God is working outside of time. When you ask the question why when, it is a false question, because there is no "when" outside of time. The Pharaoh tried to make an excuse for why Moses was trying to get the Hebrews to go on a 3 day journey to worship their God. The Pharaoh said the reason was because "they are slackers" (Gen. 5.8) and accused Moses of "deceptive words" (v.9), but was Moses being deceptive? Of course not. Slavery is wrong and the Jews were in slavery for 430 years no less. The Pharaoh even admitted, "I do not know the LORD, and what's more, I will not let Israel go" (v.2). Even the Hebrews accused Moses, "may the LORD take note of you and judge" (v.21) you Moses, for making their lives even more difficult because now they had to find straw to build bricks. But guess what? Before all was said and done, the Pharaoh did know who the LORD was just as you will, and the Hebrews did worship their God greater than ever before. Don't you know that God will keep His promise to the Jews (Gen. 2.24), they will be the center of all nations one day? From here the Son of Man will reign on earth for a 1000 years. Man can't see very far ahead at all. He is always whining like a 3 year old from his limited view, just like you do. You're blaming God for having the prerogative to create, but you falsely accuse Him for His timing when there isn't even any time outside of time. How silly is that?He had an infinite eternity with Himself in the 3 Persons, and yet all of the sudden he wants more. To me it sounds like he is lacking something, and if you want or need something that you do not have, you don't sound very perfect. It sounds more like boredom to me. If you are bored, you are lacking something, if you are lacking something you are not perfect.
But I never said God created human beings imperfectly, so your argument fails you. However well one raises their kids, try to understand the point that the child should live at a minimum in accordance with that, but there would not be free-will if they didn't have the choice not to.I don't belive that a person could raise "perfect" children. You may belive that you did, but it is not the case, because you are not perfect and you children will pick up on your imperfections which makes your parenting imperfect (If you have raised perfect kids let me know, that info is priceless). I did not assume that perfectly created humans cannot become imperfect. It is illogical for a perfect God to create humans that are imperfect (ie: genocide, rape, sickness).
The problem with your argument is you are not a 3 year old child but a fully grown person who has reached the age of accountability made in God's image. You don't get to play innocence, for that is false humility. The evil option is not created but naturally flows from first disobedience. Adam and Even did not first kill each other, but simply ate of a fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Just that simple act of disobedience and independency against God opened up a whole can of worms as sin begets sin.Realizing God is infinitely greater than you it is easy to see how this can transpire as you read Scripture with an open heart. That evil existed because it was first brought in by that fallen angel Lucifer who tempted Eve. It was only the next generation that killed, that being Cain killing his brother Abel. You may want to pat a murderer on the back and say it is not his fault, he is innocent, but that is just evil of you.But he could have not created evil options for us to choose. Its like putting a plate of cookies in front of a 3 year old and telling her "don't eat the cookies or I'll spank you" and then leave the room for an hour. What will happen? 3 year old eats cookies, you spank and it was all for nothing. You could have eliminated the stupidity of hitting your kid by not putting cookies in front of her (even imperfect parents know this, but not God?).
Realize how evil your heart is that it gives you "pleasure watching Hitler kill 11 million people or the atom bomb killing tens of thousands of civilians ect." If no 10 layer cake then you fall short of God's glory and ultimate reality. There is no offense then because nobody can be offended, because nobody is really made in God's image who can have such emotion, but are just robots. You think robots is a better job (a zombie world), whereas people who accept reality think otherwise. Your blaming is destroying you. And you still contradict yourself even though you say you shouldn't, for you keep accusing God for this existence when it happens, nonetheless, anyway according to atheism. Why don't you blame atheism also? You are a walking contradiction. It shows, if nothing else, you are not being genuine, and you are a few bricks short of a load.I guess your right. If God did not give us the free-will then we wouldn't have had the pleasure of watching Hitler kill 11 million people or the atom bomb killing tens of thousands of civilians ect. But if God had made a 10 layer cake we wouldn't be having this discussion. No offence or anything. But if God can accomplish anything, he could have done a much better job with us.
No, it is on topic because you blame God for imperfect human beings, but God didn't create imperfect human beings. Rather their imperfection flows from the fact they are not God as only someone who is not God can rebel against God. God is Spirit. You may be white, but God is spirit. You have a spirit also which is conveyed to you through your intuition, communion and conscience. The life of the Father and the Son is the Spirit. Don't be confused by this.That makes sense. Kind of off topic but, if we are made in Gods image what is God? Black, white, asian ect.
To have a choice doesn't make you imperfect, nor does being born into sin from the sin of the perfect man Adam. You are still perfectly made in God's image with a spirit, soul and body (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23), but since you are a child of Adam, you are born with a sin nature. This is unavoidable and inescapable, because procreation takes place through the flesh. All that is born of the flesh is flesh. Your problem is you keep accusing reality. It happens, therefore it is. The nature of the unsaved man is to blame reality even though it has happened, and by so doing, he passes off responsibility to the evil spirit to control his life instead of God being the guiding principle of his life by the Holy Spirit through regeneration of his inner man.Which would make them imperfect. After Adem and Eve we are supposedly born imperfect because of the "original sin" we did not make that choise but we are still imperfect by no choise of our own. If our soul's are created by God and they are imperfect then God has created something imperfect.
That's not reality, for then there is no choice to rebel or be independent. You'd be just a robot. Surely God can do better than that.Again he could have eliminated evil from the universe and skiped the whole suffering on earth dilemma. Or he also could have just created us in heaven, his son would never have to die and no one would go to hell.
Missionaries are needed because God is most gracious and merciful. It is in keeping with His nature. Someone who believed in God would surely accept Jesus as God, because there is the same nature of being uncreated and effectively dealing with sins according to reality. It is not magic but every person has a spirit of God-consciousness. We all know God exists but many people choose to shut their minds down, preferring their selfish nature. And it is not enough to just know God exists but to prostrate yourself before Him for forgiveness of sins. But this takes a willingness to be selfless and give up control of self you so desperately cling to, letting the evil spirit maintain control over you through strongholds in your mind.So you are assuming that when he rejected his native God/Gods he will just magically belive in your God? Someone who does not know of God obviously does not share your "common grace", if they did missionarys would not be needed.
Because this God I speak of trumps all others by comparison, you know He is the One True God. How many more times must He prove Himself to you that He is right, to know that He is right? It is approaching absurdity now don't you think after all this time and all these years?
Don't pm me, just keep talking in the forums. The problems you are going through can help others also. It was the Holy Spirit who amalgamated the Scriptures and brought men to combine them into the Bible. It is quite true you have a spirit of God-consciousness for all you need do is look at the nations through history which all worship what they deem to be God. Such a common condition of humanity is overwhelmingly obvious. You know God exists. Stop fighting it.Well if you understand the bible and Gods word is so clear, perhaps you could explain some of it for me. (will PM you, getting tired) Actually the 66 books of the bible were amalgamated first by Jewish rabbis and scholars, and then later by early Christians. I donno about the whole God-consciousness thing as I cannot speak for everyone, but I can tell you for sure I do not have it or we would not be having this discussion.
Don't be a hypocrite. Here are just a few passages in the bible advocating slavery.Slavery is wrong and the Jews were in slavery for 430 years no less.
The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
The bible also says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.
The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
Apostle for a region
You are being a hypocrite if you don't understand this as follows, because if you willingly don't, then you have a doublestandard. All I can do is show you how you are misreading.
In the day, there were two kinds of slavery. One was downright wrong, which is to be enslaved as a race of people for 430 years oppressively (Israel enacted a Jubilee every 50 years letting any slave depart if he wished), like enslaving blacks in United States, and the other was the norm of most nations, like today's lower class or middle class which still exists today, but with more physical punishment. To understand this, think in these terms. As you go back in history you find people to be more barbaric, therefore, a greater physical response is needed as well as enslavement. They go hand in hand. Where in antiquity slaves would be killed or maimed among the nations, God didn't do away with this second kind of slavery by Israel, but treated these individuals respectfully in that economic system with dignity and a higher standard than the norms of the day of the surrounding peoples.
Today, you may think it is not right that someone gets paid minimum wage and can't even pay their rent, but the fact remains this is a form of slavery that is still going on today. Does God say raise the minimum wage 500%? No, because the economic system would collapse. God is maintaining a certain sense of order by not creating outright anarchy in the face of so much sin.
God is a realistic God. He knows even this second kind is wrong, but to buck the trend so immediately will do more harm than good. In time, there will not even be a middle class or lower class of workers. However, while Israel did not completely change this second form of slavery, they did handle it with better care and greater consideration as you can see by the various verses you provided. God moves sometimes quickly, but others times slowly through the generations.
What then happens when Christ returns? The overcomer believers will return with Christ to reign over the nations for a 1000 years with an "iron rod" mentioned 3 times in Revelation. There will still yet be some unsaved and sinning going on and selfishness, but to a lesser degree. If God is still applying a rod of iron in the millennial kingdom, then how much more under the Old Covenant! Rewards are not done away with during the millennial kingdom, but they are done away with after the 1000 years in the New City and New Earth. Christians and Saints of Old who were carnal or fleshly will lose the reward of reigning during the 1000 years, though having been disciplined will be made ready for the New City and New Earth. A 1000 years or great length of period is a long time to lose what was rightfully yours.
I hope you can at least understand a little of my explanation. My explanation makes sense of all these verses so it clearly makes sense to me by the Holy Spirit indwelling my spirit. May it make sense to you one day too. Praise the Lord for this discernment.
Where you have a doublestandard is not realizing most nations practiced some form of slavery, even today, but you fail to appreciate the higher standard of the day that Israel held among the nations, yet you pick on Israel or Jesus, when it would make more sense to pick on those who are doing a worse job at treating slaves. In atheism, for example, the oppression is far greater than most forms of slavery as we see in communism by dictators and other socialist regimes. Your Stalin killed 40 million people and Mao 60 million. In the 20th century alone, 200 million people were killed under atheistic agendas. May you sincerely think about that.
I think it is quite unethical to apply a standard of then to now, for times have changed. All the while not examining how the Israel standard of the day was higher than surrounding peoples. We are under a New Covenant. To give an example, in antiquity it was quite the norm to have multiple spouses, but less so today. By the way Jesus was just giving an illustration from their understanding to point to the kingdom. The point being there is punishment for sin. Don't think there isn't. No sin goes unpunished. Your sin is eternally rejecting God so God eternally separates you from Him by sending you to Hell.
I understand how you can justify this "less opressive" type of slavery with bronze age economics and traditions. The only problem I see with this is God. A truly just and loving God should not kill every firstborn of Egypt for enslaving Hebrews, then turn around and let the Hebrews take slaves of their own, that is a doublestandard.I hope you can at least understand a little of my explanation. My explanation makes sense of all these verses so it clearly makes sense to me by the Holy Spirit indwelling my spirit. May it make sense to you one day too. Praise the Lord for this discernment.
But if God wanted to be truly just, loving and actually helpful to his chosen people, he would abolish slavery, and reward the Hebrews obedience with larger harvests. Then the "slaves" would be able to work as farm hands, leaving as they please while making more money/food/whatever in the process. Also the improved harvest would boost trade with local peoples. This makes more sense and is economically progressive....to buck the trend so immediately will do more harm than good.
Apostle for a region
You contradict yourself because you said you "understand" these are not the same kinds of slavery yet you take issue that there was slavery in Israel. Furthermore, there is the element of the fact that God first revealed Himself to the nation of Israel so there is a certain separation there which Israel has to maintain or preserve that cleanliness or privilege to bring in the Messiah so to maintain its identity. You must accept the fact that if God is going to reveal Himself to a nation, then what He has done is perfectly reasonable. Thinking of God working in small degrees over great lengths of time. A little here, a little there. See the gradients in His working from one generation to the next, slowly but surely. In a way, you can say you are moving ahead of God and being unrealistic, because you want Him to have no slavery at all during those times when that would be too jerky of a movement, nor does sin dissipate that quickly. There is even slavery now to a degree. So you could even blame God now, but it is not God's fault. It is man's fault, for it is man's sin. Eventually there will be no slavery, though men, such as as yourself, are presently enslaved to Satan, the god of this world maintaining your hostility towards God. Eventually, God will have no choice but to put in you Hell to be consciously aware of your wrong choice for forever. You will know you belong there because you want to be there.
God does abolish slavery, that is, oppressive slavery. Slavery of the kind we are talking about, rather, is effectively farm hands. You can give the name slavery to it, but it is really not so much different than farm hands today. Let's say God even outlawed the second kind of slavery then the nation of Israel would not maintain its identity commingling with Pagans and their idols in their own homes even. This loses what God is trying to do in an otherwise oppressive time. Therefore, God would not truly be just, loving and actually helping if He abolished the second kind of slavery. Think of it this way. The proper kind of medicine is needed for the proper kind of symptoms. The prescription you would administer doesn't properly deal with the problem of the day. Therefore, a certain degree of slavery was allowed for a time, just like today, a certain amount of low paying workers are allowed for a time until better times. If Israel did what you wanted them to do, they would actually lose land and crops because of the Pagan intrusion and confusion. Satan is the author of confusion. Your approach is not progressive but regressive, falling back into darker ages, because Israel would have been overwhelmed and taken advantage of. It's the same with when Israel entered the land of milk and honey in Canaan, surrounded by 10 Pagan nations which engorged themselves in child sacrifices thrown into the fiery mouth of their god Molech. These nations or tribes of people were so evil, God's objective was to stop their growth and finish them off unless they were willing to stop their ways. You are still making the mistake of not putting yourself in their shoes and appreciating what it was like for them back then. Ultimately, that is selfish and narrow minded of you. Think of your mind living in its closed box with a certain independency to it. And you view the universe as a closed box to. God is trying to get you to see "outside the box" you restrict yourself to. Perhaps God will show you a miracle one day to show you it's possible for God to create, incarnate and resurrect, for if you can believe in one miracle, perhaps you can believe in another. It is a miracle than Israel was dispersed for 2500 years and of all those nations present, only Israel remains and even became a nation 2500 years later in 1948. Just a few decades ago a person would consider it a miracle you could hold so much information in such a small space on a computer chip. But it isn't really so surprising when you look at our DNA. Is it really so hard for God to create and and enter His creation and resurrect? For man can create a computer, a computer game, enter in as a player character, die, and resurrect also. Your problem is this: how do you explain how mindless forces could give rise to minds, knowledge, and sound reasoning.But if God wanted to be truly just, loving and actually helpful to his chosen people, he would abolish slavery, and reward the Hebrews obedience with larger harvests. Then the "slaves" would be able to work as farm hands, leaving as they please while making more money/food/whatever in the process. Also the improved harvest would boost trade with local peoples. This makes more sense and is economically progressive.
To go back is regressive, not progressive. Today you can be a fortune teller and a medium, but you won't be put to death for it, though this sin leads to death, for it is a lie and a lie is not healthy for your spirit, soul and body. Israel had to preserve its identify as was said in brutal times. These mediums and psychics would corrupt the very fabric of Israel society and prolong the coming Messiah. It is illogical to apply today's standards to then, and I think that is disingenuous of you. If I may say, it is like you are sitting on a pedestal judging how God is dealing with difficult times in history from an improved conscience today of mankind to reject God when this exponential improvement in conscience actually points to the existence of an uncreated Creator, because we are approaching near sinlessness; thus, we wouldn't still be sinning to the extent we still do if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Acknowledge the law under the Old Covenant that no man could keep the law points to the fact they are sinners (we all have the law written upon our hearts), and also acknowledge Matt. 5-7 how Jesus came to fill up that law under the New Covenant. Don't you ask yourself why there are these two covenants? For example, take the 10 commandments. There is one that you do not need to keep which is the ceremonial law which was just for Israel, that is, to keep the Sabbath. But the other 9 moral laws you should keep. God deals differently for different dispensations. The dispensation you are in is not under the law but under grace and God reveals Himself through the Church. The Church is God's voice today. For what you should keep from the OT just look to the NT for it explains it all. It is not selective but guided by the Holy Spirit. The Bible says not one tittle of the law shall pass till all these things are finished. Think of it like the DOS programming that operates under Windows. It is still there, and it doesn't go away until these things are finished, that is to say, the Windows based system is done away with, but you working with the upgraded version. And so this continues even when Christ returns to the end of the millennial kingdom. The millennial kingdom begins after the Great Tribulation. The New City and New Earth after the millennial kingdom does away the DOS programming altogether.So we should go back to killing people for being able to think freely? A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB). Because that does not make sense in todays society. Many rules in the bible are similer to this one. So does that mean we follow all of them, or just some? If we must follow all of the biblcal rules then people would be walking around eye's and teeth missing, half of us dead and the rest scared shitless. And if you only follow some of the biblical rules you are using selective morality which is stupid (no explanation necessary)
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