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Thread: What's Wrong With Gnosticism and Deism?

  1. #11
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    The Demiurge is evil in the gnostic world as gnostics believe this creator is evil who was given this right to create by the ultimate Creator. It is assumed Sophia created the evil Demiurge; I didn't say it was true, but that it can't be true, since God does not create evil.

    The uncreated Creator is the only one who can create sentient beings. And man who is created is not evil. Moreover, the ethereal beings you cite are unsubstantiated, but Jesus walked the earth.

    Things are very specific in God's design, which you call black and white while you live in greyness and vagaries. They say the devil is in the details, but he is also in vagaries and lack of clarity. That is when his deceptions arise.

  2. #12
    Apoche Guest

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    The Demiurge is evil in the gnostic world as gnostics believe this creator is evil who was given this right to create by the ultimate Creator.
    The Demiurge was never given any right to create anything. He (for it is the God of the Old Testament) acted out of arrogance and. Sophia did not give Him the right to do whatever He wanted.
    It is assumed Sophia created the evil Demiurge; I didn't say it was true, but that it can't be true, since God does not create evil.
    Yes, but by your logic, I can say God created Hitler. Sophia might have created the Demiurge, but the Demiurge acted on its own accord, and thus did evil. Sophia did not create an evil being; it created a being that did evil because it had free will and chose to do so.
    And man who is created is not evil. Moreover, the ethereal beings you cite are unsubstantiated, but Jesus walked the earth.
    So did founders of many religions: Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius, et cetera.
    Things are very specific in God's design, which you call black and white while you live in greyness and vagaries.
    And this makes God very dangerous as a person. A political system that cares not for the scales of grey between the white and black ends is one akin to Soviet Russia. If people didn't love communism, they hated their countries and wished for US-style capitalism, or so the leaders of the Soviet Union reasoned. Likewise, if someone doesn't like Jesus, he is immediately seen as an affront to all that is good. That is a dangerous attitude, for it incites wars.

    The Demiurge is evil in the gnostic world as gnostics believe this creator is evil who was given this right to create by the ultimate Creator.
    Sophia 'birthed' the Demiurge, but the Demiurge acted on its own accord and was never given any right to create anything. I have said this so many times, and yet you ignore it.
    The uncreated Creator is the only one who can create sentient beings.
    Gnostics would agree.
    And man who is created is not evil.
    Nor is the Demiurge. He is mistaken, incompetent and arrogant, but not evil.
    Things are very specific in God's design, which you call black and white while you live in greyness and vagaries.
    You make God sound like some dictator in the vein of Stalin. Either you're with him or you're against him is not really that different from either you're a communist or you're an enemy to the state.

  3. #13
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    God of the OT (same as the NT) is not gnostic, so He is not the Demiurge you speak of. There is no arrogance in the Triune God at all. He is righteous, holy and faithful. In gnosticism the creator of the universe and people is evil, but God of the Bible, who is loving would not cause people such heartache to know they were created evilly and He would never create a being who could then create evilly. Man is not evil; man was made perfect without any evil in him whatsoever. Your Demiurge is evil whether he was made that way or chose to be that way; just like Satan is evil through and through and will never repent.

    None of these ever claimed to be the uncreated creator: Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius. Only Jesus did. He is unique.

    There is a definite improvement of democracies over communism. There is no gray area about this. Just like there is no gray area about Jesus who died on the cross for your sins. Either He did it or He didn't do it. He did it! Satan loves the gray area to create confusion (Satan is the author of confusion) and ecumenicalism and contradicts himself all the time, like you do. How could such an intelligent being be so dumb? It's a free-country. Don't blame God's precision work and excellence bar none for the evil concept of godless communism. That's insane and twisted as heck!

    The Demiurge is an evil concept because he was given the right to create even though he was evil. Only the uncreated Creator can create because only the Creator is perfect in every way. I think you are misrepresenting gnosticism, because the basis of gnostic is clearly outlined.

    God created you, you sinned, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. God loved you so much He died for you on the cross to save you from your self, but you reject Him. You call Him a dictator. You're only dictating yourself above God's loving merciful act. He did all He can do for you; it is now up to you to continue to reject His love or receive it. God is the computer program of the program we are in. He is just. Nothing He does is wrong, so when you accuse Him, you condemn yourself.

    Praise the Lord for this discernment!

  4. #14
    Apoche Guest

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    God of the OT (same as the NT) is not gnostic, so He is not the Demiurge you speak of.
    I don't care what you think, and nor does the Gnostics. According to Gnostic theology, the God of the OT is the Demiurge, and a separate being from the God of the NT, who is the actual son of Sophia.
    None of these ever claimed to be the uncreated creator: Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius. Only Jesus did. He is unique.
    The question was not if these people claimed to be the uncreated creator; I mentioned them because they walked earth and founded various religions. I brought them up because you said "none of the ethereal beings you cite are unsubstantiated, but Jesus walked Earth." By the way, would you care to tell me which ethereal beings I cited?
    There is a definite improvement of democracies over communism. There is no gray area about this.
    Yes, of course, either you're trying to avoid answering my question or you do not get what I am saying. I said that communist states often employ black and white thinking along the lines of "either you're with me or against me," not that communist states are better than democracies.
    Just like there is no gray area about Jesus who died on the cross for your sins. Either He did it or He didn't do it.
    It is black and white thinking to say that either you're with Jesus or you are his enemy.
    Don't blame God's precision work and excellence bar none for the evil concept of godless communism.
    I am not blaming God for communism. Read my post.
    The Demiurge is an evil concept because he was given the right to create even though he was evil.
    No, he went against the will of Sophia just like man went against the will of God. If man has free will and can decide to be good or evil, so does the Demiurge. Sophia did not create Him with the intention of being evil; he turned evil on his own account.
    I think you are misrepresenting gnosticism, because the basis of gnostic is clearly outlined.
    This outline is written by you, and you do not seem to understand a lot about Gnosticism.

  5. #15
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    God of the Bible conveys Himself as being uncreated, not a son of Sophia, so there is your first mistake. Jesus is the Son of God and Son of Man conveying His deity. He does this in Matt. 9.1-8. Make sure you read it to confirm for yourself.
    Mat 9:1 And he entered into a boat, and crossed over, and came into his own city. Mat 9:2 And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer; thy sins are forgiven. Mat 9:3 "Blasphemy! This man talks like he is God!" some of the teachers of religious law said among themselves. Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? Mat 9:5 For which is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and walk? Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saith he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go up unto thy house. Mat 9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house. Mat 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they were afraid, and glorified God, who had given such authority unto men.
    The Messiah in Isaiah 53 is the Christ. Jesus said He is the great "I AM" so did God of the OT. Since you have nothing to back your theology, why hold onto it? Why cling to something you have no evidence for? Just like Islam said Jesus did not die on the cross, you believe in gnosticism. You guys don't need evidence. That is illogical.

    Founding a religion is not what is in focus. For the uncreated Creator He must admit He is the uncreated Creator. That's what Jesus does. None of your other folks did that. Walking the earth is what we all do, so that is no big deal. Walking the earth and calling yourself God is unique.

    Just because an evil nation thinks black and white, does not mean black and white is not true, but that their kind of black and white is false. Jesus proved the only way to salvation is through Him and the only way to the Father is through the Son, for good reason, since only Jesus was sinless. An imperfect sacrifice will never fully atone for my sins nor yours. This clearly indicates you are going to hell for rejecting God's only begotten Son.

    Since you call Jesus a liar when He said He is God, you're definitely black and white on the subject, so you are going to hell, because there is no other name by which one may be saved under heaven. Jesus said that Himself. He told you the truth, for He is God. The Pharisees recognized Jesus was saying He is God so they accused of Him. He is the One who has the power to forgive your sins.

    I didn't say you were blaming communism, I said you were blaming God's precision work which you call black and white. You do this because your are expressing your independency and disobedience to God in your sin nature. Only hell can further address your condition.

    Though God created man perfectly and man choose to rebel, God still didn't give man the right to create sentient beings. But your evil god Sophia did.

    I did not write that link on gnosticism. It was taken out of the magazine, "Christianity". Funny. Have you noticed you are always wrong? Always assuming things you can't back up. That is what it means to be antichrist, for Christ is true and you therefore reject all truth, for all truth leads back to Him. He sums up all things. All things begin and end with Him. My prayers go out to you, for you know not what you do.

    Praise the Lord for this discernment!

  6. #16
    columbus Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Churchwork View Post
    Why does the God of the Bible trump the god of gnosticism?

    Compare God of the Bible who does not leave His creation unattended, for that would be unrighteous, unholy and evil.
    The God of the Bible does leave His Creation unattended. From A&E eating some fruit, to the Israelites being conquered by the Chaldeans, to the creation of the HIV virus, the God of the Bible has been notoriously absent. He didn't stop the Holocaust or the creation of nuclear weapons, and He didn't explain why the burning of fossil fuels is immoral. He didn't even say that slavery was immoral.
    The God of the Bible is utterly absent from human history. There are plenty of humans claiming to speak for Him, but He Himself is utterly absent.


    But the god of deism says he left his creation unattended.
    The god of deism doesn't say that. The god of deism doesn't say anything.

    I believe in God, myself. I believe in a god which is Perfect, Eternal, and Changeless.

    Such a god is more like gravity than a human being. Nothing is left unattended, but such a god isn't limited like the God of the Bible is. God doesn't "want" anything, or "plan" anything. God cannot be thwarted by sapient molecules on a little planet. God doesn't care about anything, doesn't do anything, God just Is. God doesn't need a Bible or a Resurrection or worship, God isn't even aware of such human minutae.

    The righteousness of the God of the Bible trumps the god of gnosticism for a righteous God would not let an evil god to create us.
    Gnosticism is not the same as deism.

    And while I don't claim to know what the term "gnosticism" refers to, precisely, the God of the Bible is demonstrably evil. That I can show, by quoting the Bible Itself.

    He planted a Tree in the Biblical garden of Eden that caused all the evil in Creation.

    Tom

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by columbus View Post
    The God of the Bible does leave His Creation unattended. From A&E eating some fruit, to the Israelites being conquered by the Chaldeans, to the creation of the HIV virus, the God of the Bible has been notoriously absent. He didn't stop the Holocaust or the creation of nuclear weapons, and He didn't explain why the burning of fossil fuels is immoral. He didn't even say that slavery was immoral. The God of the Bible is utterly absent from human history. There are plenty of humans claiming to speak for Him, but He Himself is utterly absent.
    These are the consequences of sin. You want to sin and not have consequences. The HIV virus permutated directly from sin. Only in Christianity does God enter His creation personally to die on the cross for the sins of the world. There is no greater love. Men killed Him, so He gives them what they want (absence in Person). He goes back up to Heaven and let's man see they can't do it on their own without Him. Then He will return to reign on earth for 1000 years in Person. Burning of fossil fuels inordinately is harmful to our own health. It causes cancer. God is showing us when we move ahead of His lead, problems occur, like Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is not that God didn't want us to have this knowledge but all in due time. Man is impatient and independent. God dwells in all of His children by the Holy Spirit. In your spirit resides the evil spirit. The Church is His body. He is here.

    The god of deism doesn't say that. The god of deism doesn't say anything.
    The dictionary disagrees with you: "belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it."

    I believe in God, myself. I believe in a god which is Perfect, Eternal, and Changeless.
    What you consider perfect in your god, we consider is evil, because he is impersonal and inaccessible, too selfish to pay for sins.

    Such a god is more like gravity than a human being. Nothing is left unattended, but such a god isn't limited like the God of the Bible is. God doesn't "want" anything, or "plan" anything. God cannot be thwarted by sapient molecules on a little planet. God doesn't care about anything, doesn't do anything, God just Is. God doesn't need a Bible or a Resurrection or worship, God isn't even aware of such human minutae.
    Your god does leave things unattended because there is the HIV virus, other disease, war, murder, rape, crime, whereas God of the Bible shows these are the consequences of sin. His redemptive design has a plan to deal with all this. Your god is limited because he doesn't have the power to enter his creation personally like Jesus did to show us how to be. Yours is a like an absentee landlord of deism and gnostic for he is evil to be that way. God is not being thwarted in anything He is doing. It is all within His divine providence. He wants out of His glory to fellowship with those who love Him. Nobody knows all the things God has planned for those who love Him. It's a plan, but not in the sense you and I plan, but His plan is intuitively mindful and pure conscience. An evil god "doesn't care about anything". God gives His word of the Bible to show us His will because He is gracious and merciful. He doesn't leave us in the dark like your god does. Just imagine what the world would be like without the Bible, the freest book in the world that has produced the most charities in the world and most martyrs in the world. People's lives are improved by when we remember the self-sacrifice in Christians to stand up for what is right as our Lord Jesus did. He fashions Himself in our image for us to be the perfect sacrifice. Since He wants to spend eternity with His elect, resurrection follows. God is aware of everything. He is all-knowing. Your god obviously doesn't have this ability, for you said he "isn't even aware". Your god is pathetic.

    Gnosticism is not the same as deism.

    And while I don't claim to know what the term "gnosticism" refers to, precisely, the God of the Bible is demonstrably evil. That I can show, by quoting the Bible Itself.

    He planted a Tree in the Biblical garden of Eden that caused all the evil in Creation.
    I never said gnosticism is the same as deism though of course, they are very similar. Gnosticism in the description of this forum you're posting in already says gnosticism is an evil god who creates like the god of deism who is an absentee landlord. That's the god Antony Flew believes in so Antony is going to Hell.

    I am glad you couldn't find God of the Bible to be evil. Praise the Lord! God did not cause man to sin, that was man's choice. God did not cause Lucifer to fall, that was Lucifer's fault. God did not cause 1/3 of the angels to follow Satan your father, that was their and your choice. You keep blaming God for your own choices. How childish.

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