The Roman Catholic Church

[prophecystudent]

I am new here having been referred here by a person from another forum.

I have read with some interest this thread. While I have a problem with wholesale condemnation of a complete denomination, I have to agree with some of the statements regarding the RCC.

RCC claims that the popes are infallible. Not true as we are all fallible.

RCC places far too much emphasis on ritual and tradition. The bible specifically warns against such activities.

RCC prays to Mary for intervention. Christians should pray only to God/Christ as it says in the bible. As one author put it (AIR) there is only one route to Heaven and it is not thru Mary.

RCC places far too much emphasis on relics, which lead to worship of such things.

There is no purgatory, there is no limbo and no biblical proof for such concepts.

There are many others, but this will suffice to make the example.

In truth, I do not judge individual members of RCC. I find a number of things the RCC does to be unscriptural, and which could lead people in the wrong direction. I know there are many true Christians who are members of the RCC. Indeed I met quite a number of them when I was working in a counselling center for 100 Huntley Street some years ago.

I would venture that we should be cautious about judging individuals, but not be shy about judging institutions that teach things not of the bible.

Fred

[Evanescence]

RCC claims that the popes are infallible. Not true as we are all fallible.

The church believes that the Pope's teachings are infallible, which makes sense if you believe in a magisterium of the church.

RCC prays to Mary for intervention. Christians should pray only to God/Christ as it says in the bible. As one author put it (AIR) there is only one route to Heaven and it is not thru Mary.

We only 'intercess' through Mary just like you would pray for your friend, we ask Mary to pray for us, of cause we still aknowledge that we are saved through Jesus christ, the one mediator to God.

Oh and welcome, I am new here as well :)

Evanescence

[Churchwork]

While I have a problem with wholesale condemnation of a complete denomination, I have to agree with some of the statements regarding the RCC.

Since God never ordained denominations, and He has expressed as much in the Scriptures, then it is final!

In truth, I do not judge individual members of RCC.

You have in fact judged, by listing various things you say they are wrong about, which they are. When you are even partially condemning them instead of as you say "wholesale condemnation" you are still condemning. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

I find a number of things the RCC does to be unscriptural, and which could lead people in the wrong direction. I know there are many true Christians who are members of the RCC.

I don't think you know this, you only think you do.

I would venture that we should be cautious about judging individuals, but not be shy about judging institutions that teach things not of the bible.

Judging has two sides to a coin. You can also judgingly overassume someone to be a Christian that is not. To overassume either way is not being cautious.

[Churchwork]

The church believes that the Pope's teachings are infallible, which makes sense if you believe in a magisterium of the church.

We only 'intercess' through Mary just like you would pray for your friend, we ask Mary to pray for us, of cause we still aknowledge that we are saved through Jesus christ, the one mediator to God.

Oh and welcome, I am new here as well Evanescence

This does not make sense at all. Just because someone claims to have authority does not make their teaching infallible. The Bible considers the RCC not the church today but the great harlot of religious Rome, that woman that sits on the beast of nations to make them drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8).

Most popes were never born-again since there is no popery in the church. If they were saved they could never have tried to become popes or add to God's Word, the 66 books of the Bible. Authority does not do this.

When you pray for a friend, you do not pray through Mary, nor do you pray for your friend to pray for you, since this is self-centered. The comparison is not the same at all. To intercess through Mary is the worship of a goddess that sinned. This if false interecessory prayer of the evil spirit since you depend on sin as your intermediary just as intermediary priesthood is judaized Christianity, yet the levitical priesthood has passed.

Mary is asleep in Hades. She can not interceed for you. You should not ask dead people to pray for you. This is spiritism and necromancy.

You know not what you do.

[prophecystudent]

Since God never ordained denominations, and He has expressed as much in the Scriptures, then it is final!

I agree that nothing I have read in the bible declares that there are/should be denominations. I agree that the "real" church is the body of those who believe in Christ.

Because a group of people, of like understanding of scripture, get together and study or worship is not necessarily bad. Nor does the fact that they may define their group with a title.

What makes denominationalism bad is when it leads to "warfare" between the groups of believers. To say that a group believes, for example, in pre-trib rapture makes them wrong or less than believers is, in my opinion wrong.

To claim that one's own interpretation of scripture is infallible or perfect presumes too much. That is not to say that all/every group or individual that may have a different interpretation of scripture is correct. We have to weigh what they say against scripture and make the determination.

You have in fact judged, by listing various things you say they are wrong about, which they are. When you are even partially condemning them instead of as you say "wholesale condemnation" you are still condemning. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

As I see it, there is a difference between judging practices and policies of an organization or individuals and judging the individuals themselves. Perhaps describing things that are wrong with the RCC could be considered to be judging the individuals who continue to support or perpetuate such errors.

I draw a distinction between judging the sin, and judging the sinner. As Christ said, we should hate the sin and love the sinner.

I don't think you know this, you only think you do.

I have personal knowledge from association with numbers of Catholics, long discussions with them regarding their beliefs. They believe as I do regarding the gospel of Christ, salvation, etc. Including some of their priests. They referred to themselves as charismatic Catholics.

To claim that someone who is a member of the RCC is not saved, or is not a believer is, IMO, wrong. Perhaps we are missing each other's point due to semantics. When I say I "know" something, that means I have observed or studied, and reached what I consider to be an informed opinion. When I observe a person and discuss at length their beliefs regarding salvation, and those beliefs are in accordance with my understanding and beliefs, then I can say that I know they are believers.

Judging has two sides to a coin. You can also judgingly overassume someone to be a Christian that is not. To overassume either way is not being cautious.

Again, perhaps we are "talking past each other". However, as stated above, when I find a person who professes the same beliefs as I have regarding salvation I assume that person is a Christian in what you and I appear to consider the true sense of the word. Thus I do not consider such a conclusion to "over assume".

My belief is quite simple, I guess.

I believe that Christ is the Son of God. That He was born in human form with the sole purpose of dying as God's perfect Lamb, as sacrifice to pay for the sins of all mankind. There is one requirement for us to receive that salvation, accepting the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION by recognizing Christ and His sacrifice.

The bible is the inerrant word of God. Unfortunately, humans are not inerrant and we make mistakes. Some of those mistakes are when we interpret the Word of God. Until we receive full knowledge from God, when we receive our glorified bodies, we cannot assume that our interpretation of scripture is perfect.

Fred

[Churchwork]

To claim that one's own interpretation of scripture is infallible or perfect presumes too much. That is not to say that all/every group or individual that may have a different interpretation of scripture is correct. We have to weigh what they say against scripture and make the determination.

Of course, I would disagree with you on this because God has given the Word to know it, not to not know something particularly. John 3.16,18 for example is clear, to be saved you must come through Christ and those who do not believe are condemned already.

As I see it, there is a difference between judging practices and policies of an organization or individuals and judging the individuals themselves. Perhaps describing things that are wrong with the RCC could be considered to be judging the individuals who continue to support or perpetuate such errors.

Of course, since men make organizations. That's why God said do not say you are of Cephas, or you are of Apollos or don't even say you are of Christ to divide denominationally or non-denominationally.

I have personal knowledge from association with numbers of Catholics, long discussions with them regarding their beliefs. They believe as I do regarding the gospel of Christ, salvation, etc. Including some of their priests. They referred to themselves as charismatic Catholics.

I would not presume this as you do, because just because someone says they believe the gospel, and yet they manifest all types of strange teachings and false fruit, would suggest they in fact in their heart of hearts do not accept the gospel at all, e.g. Mary idolatry or paying for indulgences or intermediary priesthood or popery not found in the Scriptures or mistreatment of women not allowed to be apostles and so forth.

To claim that someone who is a member of the RCC is not saved, or is not a believer is, IMO, wrong. Perhaps we are missing each other's point due to semantics. When I say I "know" something, that means I have observed or studied, and reached what I consider to be an informed opinion. When I observe a person and discuss at length their beliefs regarding salvation, and those beliefs are in accordance with my understanding and beliefs, then I can say that I know they are believers.

To overassume people are saved is wrong when they manifest so much false fruit. Who made you God and saved these people in poor conscience? Is there no end to which you will go to call people saved? Was Hitler saved? He said he was a Christian in placing himself with the RCC. This is the problem with making nothing count. God will very often show someone who is not in the body of Christ by their affiliation and words. I do not think we are missing each others points by semantics. I think you really believe what you do.

I believe the reason you make this mistake of overassuming people to be Christians is because you do not understand Matthew 13 of the teaching of the tares, where God said they look like the wheat, but in fact they are unsaved. You should study this matter deeply (I will pray that you do):

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_13.htm

I believe that Christ is the Son of God. That He was born in human form with the sole purpose of dying as God's perfect Lamb, as sacrifice to pay for the sins of all mankind. There is one requirement for us to receive that salvation, accepting the FREE GIFT OF SALVATION by recognizing Christ and His sacrifice.

Remember again, many who make this very claim you just made are in fact not born-again at all. Why? It is because they are able to say it in their unrenewed heads, while their spirits remain unquickened by the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to study the Scriptures mentally, but to truly be regenerated is something else. The former does not produce new life, but the latter is entrance into the new creation. This would help explain why some alter the Word of God and claim Biblical tongues means gibberish babble, when there is no gibberish babble in the Bible.

The bible is the inerrant word of God. Unfortunately, humans are not inerrant and we make mistakes. Some of those mistakes are when we interpret the Word of God. Until we receive full knowledge from God, when we receive our glorified bodies, we cannot assume that our interpretation of scripture is perfect. Fred

Sin is not our guiding principle so it does not determine our knowing. Our knowing is in our new spirit, and though it can not be completely correct on all things it certainly can be right before God and knowing on a great many things revealed in the Word and by revelation.

This is definitely a false teaching you produce and it is not of God when you say you can not know. I know this for a fact, for God has given us the Scriptures to know objectively and subjectively. There is no doubt about this. The reason you believe that you can not know while at the same time saying you know certain people to be Christians that are roman catholics (but that indicate they are not Christians by their false fruit by what they truly believe) is being doubletongued.

I have pointed out this doubletalk of yours because I come across it too many times in Pentecostals as they use it to rationalize their position for their false tongues. I believe this is what you are undergoing to rationalize your not knowing your gibberish babble. God did not give gibberish babble, but it is man's alteration of God's Word. I know this and impart this truth to you so that you may repent, because you have definitely altered God's Word when you say in your profile "No" to "Biblical tongues are languages only". This false teaching you have needs to die on the cross for tongues are known, not unknown.

This unknowing is a passivity induced by the evil spirit to control you in which you have unwittingly received into your life by your own volition. God wants you to know. The evil spirit says you can not know. You favor the teaching of the latter.

[prophecystudent]

Of course, I would disagree with you on this because God has given the Word to know it, not to not know something particularly. John 3.16,18 for example is clear, to be saved you must come through Christ and those who do not believe are condemned already.


Of course, since men make organizations. That's why God said do not say you are of Cephas, or you are of Apollos or don't even say you are of Christ to divide denominationally or non-denominationally.


I would not presume this as you do, because just because someone says they believe the gospel, and yet they manifest all types of strange teachings and false fruit, would suggest they in fact in their heart of hearts do not accept the gospel at all, e.g. Mary idolatry or paying for indulgences or intermediary priesthood or popery not found in the Scriptures or mistreatment of women not allowed to be apostles and so forth.


To overassume people are saved is wrong when they manifest so much false fruit. Who made you God and saved these people in poor conscience? Is there no end to which you will go to call people saved? Was Hitler saved? He said he was a Christian in placing himself with the RCC. This is the problem with making nothing count. God will very often show someone who is not in the body of Christ by their affiliation and words. I do not think we are missing each others points by semantics. I think you really believe what you do.

I believe the reason you make this mistake of overassuming people to be Christians is because you do not understand Matthew 13 of the teaching of the tares, where God said they look like the wheat, but in fact they are unsaved. You should study this matter deeply (I will pray that you do):

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_13.htm


Remember again, many who make this very claim you just made are in fact not born-again at all. Why? It is because they are able to say it in their unrenewed heads, while their spirits remain unquickened by the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to study the Scriptures mentally, but to truly be regenerated is something else. The former does not produce new life, but the latter is entrance into the new creation. This would help explain why some alter the Word of God and claim Biblical tongues means gibberish babble, when there is no gibberish babble in the Bible.


Sin is not our guiding principle so it does not determine our knowing. Our knowing is in our new spirit, and though it can not be completely correct on all things it certainly can be right before God and knowing on a great many things revealed in the Word and by revelation.

This is definitely a false teaching you produce and it is not of God when you say you can not know. I know this for a fact, for God has given us the Scriptures to know objectively and subjectively. There is no doubt about this. The reason you believe that you can not know while at the same time saying you know certain people to be Christians that are roman catholics (but that indicate they are not Christians by their false fruit by what they truly believe) is being doubletongued.

I have pointed out this doubletalk of yours because I come across it too many times in Pentecostals as they use it to rationalize their position for their false tongues. I believe this is what you are undergoing to rationalize your not knowing your gibberish babble. God did not give gibberish babble, but it is man's alteration of God's Word. I know this and impart this truth to you so that you may repent, because you have definitely altered God's Word when you say in your profile "No" to "Biblical tongues are languages only". This false teaching you have needs to die on the cross for tongues are known, not unknown.

This unknowing is a passivity induced by the evil spirit to control you in which you have unwittingly received into your life by your own volition. God wants you to know. The evil spirit says you can not know. You favor the teaching of the latter.

I think I have found the answer I was looking for. It has been interesting to view your responses, and what appear, to me, to be rather presumptive ideas.

Your presumption that you are infallible in your interpretatation of scripture leaves me unsettled, and concerned.

I think the best course of action is for me to drop out of this forum. I have read and studied at some length prophecy, especially the end times.

I am fully aware of the prostitute that sits on the beast, who she is, what she will do to the real church when she comes to power. I also know what will happen to her. It is told very clearly in Revelation.

As I said, it has been interesting.

Good by and God bless you.

Fred

[Churchwork]

prophecystudent (Fred),

What I have told you is not presumptive, since what you claim can not be found in the Scriptures, so you ought not to presume and overassume them, just as I do not, i.e. particularly your false tongues gibberish babble and overassuming people to be believers yet they have 4 or 5 or more absolute false teachings which are not fruit of the Spirit. This is a contradiction you wield in your heart that needs to die on the cross if you are a Christian.

My knowing this about you, naturally instead of repenting, you look to find excuse and blame anything but yourself. This is why you accuse then falsely to say things that I don't say of myself, when you said "Your presumption that you are infallible in your interpretation of scripture leaves me unsettled, and concerned".

Since I did not say I know all things, but that what I have said is true and proven and provable in the Word specifically, where do you come with this accusation out of nowhere by claiming I know all things or that what I have said could not be true when you have NO reason or basis for saying so? Your reaction is not humble at all, but like that great vague accuser that is not fond of specifics. Just like the birds of the air land in the tree of faith, this accusation you lodge in the tree of faith accusing Christians, comes from evil spirits which you accept willingly.

What we know is that roman catholicism has several extremely aberrant teachings, and that if one were born-again they would walk away from. For you to overassume their salvation is like Satan declaring something without basis and yourself playing God. Secondly, your own false teaching of gibberish babble is equally aberrant and Pharasaical since you have no way to justify it in the Word your false tongues; and it requires, even demands, you to alter the Scriptures in your own self-induced gibberish babble to open you up to evil entry by passivity. Just like you can't know your gibberish babble, 5 interpreters give 5 different answers, so you think you can not know the Scriptures, and that when one does, you accuse them vaguely as possible of maybe being wrong. This is immature!

I agree with you the best course of action for you is "to drop out of this forum", because you can not repent in your overassuming people to be saved when they have all kinds of horrible teaching including your own in false tongues. This forum is not for you.

You may say you know who the "prostitute" is who sits on the beast, but your self-declaration they are Christians is a bit much. You are contradicting yourself. Just as they can not repent, you can not repent from your own false tongues. And as result what is coming to pass, are those lost such as yourself, in the Three Wave Movements not of God:

- Pentecostalism (or montanism) first wave movement of false tongues 100 years ago.
- 50 years ago the Charismatic antics and their false tongues.
- today, the Charismatic RCC with all her false teachings as the great harlot, to be married to the first two wave movements in the same false tongues.

Do you get the picture? What is the common denominator here? False tongues in all three cases! If Penetcostalism today was to be one of the main portions of the 7 church periods in Rev. 2 & 3, God would have indicated it and He would have indicated gibberish babble was a in important element, yet there is not one instance of gibberish babble in the Bible. So why do you do it? Evil spirits have a hold on you. God is against psychic gibberish and mediums babble that you strive for.

I will ban you so you do not have to worry about not having the self-control to avoid this forum. This is this is not a gibberish promoting babble forum, nor is it an ecumenical RCC forum where so many are saved as you presume. What you teach is not found in the Word.

[saint]

Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church demands that Mary be a co-Redeemer even though she was born into sin and was a sinner?

I'm not Roman Catholic, but I am a big Church history student.

Your statement here that the RCC demands that Mary be a co-Redeemer is totally false. While there is a movement within the RCC that would like to make it true-- it is not their official teaching and never has been.

It would be nice if you retracted such a false statement.

[Churchwork]

saint,

This is the problem you have to deal with. Roman Catholics say to me personally Mary is the co-redeemer today, now. You say otherwise. I say they are wrong and you are misrepresenting what roman catholics say today since they have said it over and over. You should not ask me to retract what sins are issued forth from the mouths of the sinning roman catholocists. You should speak to them, not me.

They respond by saying they don't mean Mary is the Savior, but she is a co-redeemer in the sense that she gives her life to Christ so she played a role in redemption. I say to them, why don't you often speak of all Christians as co-redeemers then, and inordinately point out Mary is a co-redeemer? And doesn't this also confuse Christ as our Redeemer if you are always calling Christians redeemers or usually just Mary? Isn't Satan the author of confusion? They give no answer coyly. You can see how this behavior pattern by Roman Catholics is wrong because they are trying to rationalize Mary being sinless when she is not.

Suffice it to say the problem with the Roman Catholic system as the great harlot of religious Rome is in claiming Mary is sinless, which creates this confusion so that a segment of roman catholicism teaches Mary is a co-redeemer.

I pray this will help you.