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Thread: The Roman Catholic Church

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    Default The Roman Catholic Church

    Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church demands that Mary be a co-Redeemer even though she was born into sin and was a sinner? How can a sinner be a substitute? I find these statements problematic for not keeping separate the Word from the Church, which causes the latte to be exalted to a higher place than it belongs or was intended:

    "To make it in any sense an infallible revelation, or in other words a revelation at all to us, we need a power to interpret the testament that shall have equal authority with that testament itself." (The Question Box, p. 95)
    "An infallible Bible is no use without an infallible interpreter..." (My Catholic Faith, p. 145).
    "...The Scriptures can never serve as a complete Rule of Faith and a complete guide to heaven independently of an authorized, living interpreter." (The Faith of Our Fathers, p. 68).
    "The Church is the only divinely constituted teacher of Revelation. Now, the Scripture is the great depository of the Word of God. Therefore, the Church is the divinely appointed Custodian and Interpreter of the Bible. For, her office of infallible Guide were superfluous if each individual could interpret the Bible for himself...God never intended the Bible to be the Christians' rule of faith independently of the living authority of the Church." (Ibid., p. 77).
    "We must, therefore, conclude that the Scriptures alone cannot be a sufficient guide and rule of faith...because they are not of themselves clear and intelligible even in matters of the highest importance..." (The Faith of Our Fathers, p. 73).
    Catholic officials follow up this claim by stating that one can get the true meaning only from the Catholic Church. A Catechism for Adults on page 10 says, "How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church."
    "How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church. 'This, then, you must understand first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is made by private interpretation' (2nd Peter 1:20)." (A Catechism for Adults, p. 10).
    "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit..." (From the footnote on 2 Pet. 1:20, Douay- Rheims Version, p. 582).
    "...St. Peter...declared against private interpretation of the Scriptures (2 Pet. I, 20..." (Father Smith Instructs Jackson, p. 53).

    We call your attention to the fact that they want you to make a private interpretation of the above verse. What kind of rule is it that says we can make a private interpretation of a verse which says we can't make a private interpretation! Catholics are always inconsistent on this point. They quote Scripture to support their doctrine expecting us to understand and to make a private interpretation. However, when we quote a passage which refutes their doctrine, they tell us that it is wrong to make private interpretations!

  2. #2
    Razor Guest

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    Greetings Troy,

    Should we not be discussing common ground that we have in Jesus Christ with Roman Catholics instead of Judging them?
    After all Faith in Christ is the only righteousness in the sight of God...

    What each denomination does physicaly as it goes about having Faith in Christ Jesus spiritualy means nothing to God after all is said and done.

    Peace

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    We should not judge the Roman Catholic Church, but nor should we accept their confusion.

    After all is said and done, having faith in Christ makes all the difference in the world to receive the gift of eternal life by the grace of God, to be rewarded for overcoming in that faith, and to be with God in the new city.

    What denominations do has a bearing on deceiving people, and helping people, so we need to be aware of not being deceived. After all, what Christ did on the cross for us, flows to us who are in Him to abide in the truth.

    Since you are a universalist and not a Christian, what I have said here can not reach your conscience because your spirit is dead to God in which you need to yet be born-again.

    Love and truth is peace.

  4. #4
    stray bullet Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church demands that Mary be a co-Redeemer even though she was born into sin and was a sinner? How can a sinner be a substitute?
    I think there may be a little confusion here on what the Catholic Church means. Mary could not be a substitute for Christ, as the Church teaches, her salvation was dependent on the sacrifice of Christ.

    When the Church refers to Mary as a co-redeemer, it means co-redeemer of mankind. What this means is that Mary, like all the elect, the saved, are co-deemers in humanity. At the fall, humanity was condemned, but by Christ's sacrifice, humanity is redeemed. However, humanity can not be redeemed unless individuals accept that salvation. If Jesus died and no one accepted His salvation, then humanity would not be redeemed- that's all co-redeemer means. Each of us, by accepting salvation and especially helping others are helping to redeem mankind.


    I find these statements problematic for not keeping separate the Word from the Church, which causes the latte to be exalted to a higher place than it belongs or was intended:
    Catholics do not believe in keeping the word separate from the Church, as the Church is made up of the successors of the apostles who created the NT with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, it was the original teachings, actions and instructions of the apostles, of the Church that make up our New Testament. The Gospel that was preached orally was the teaching of the apostles and was separate from the 'word' at that time- the Old Testament. When the apostles wrote Acts, they wrote the actions of the apostles, of the Church, which later became the word. When Paul and the other apostles, the hierarchy of the Church, instructed the Christians at Corinthians, Rome, et cetera, these letters, became the word. The Church is not based on the bible, but rather the bible is based on the Church.

    We call your attention to the fact that they want you to make a private interpretation of the above verse. What kind of rule is it that says we can make a private interpretation of a verse which says we can't make a private interpretation! Catholics are always inconsistent on this point. They quote Scripture to support their doctrine expecting us to understand and to make a private interpretation. However, when we quote a passage which refutes their doctrine, they tell us that it is wrong to make private interpretations!


    As far as I could tell you were not quoting from official sources, so I wouldn't categorize the Catholic Church by these individuals' responses. A better source to quote from on the beliefs of Catholics would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am not aware that the Catholic Church holds as an official belief that you must have private revelation regarding any verse. Rather, you are briefly quoting non-official sources who are arguing, from a biblical basis, the problems in sola scriptura and private interpretation of scripture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stray bullet
    I think there may be a little confusion here on what the Catholic Church means. Mary could not be a substitute for Christ, as the Church teaches, her salvation was dependent on the sacrifice of Christ.
    Since what I said does not indicate I claimed the RCC said that Mary is a substitute for Christ, why speak such words as though I had? How odd that Mary would be the substitute for Christ and Christ the substitute for mankind. I know this is not what the RCC believes.

    When the Church refers to Mary as a co-redeemer, it means co-redeemer of mankind. What this means is that Mary, like all the elect, the saved, are co-deemers in humanity. At the fall, humanity was condemned, but by Christ's sacrifice, humanity is redeemed. However, humanity can not be redeemed unless individuals accept that salvation. If Jesus died and no one accepted His salvation, then humanity would not be redeemed- that's all co-redeemer means. Each of us, by accepting salvation and especially helping others are helping to redeem mankind.
    I find this inappropriate still since others should be called co-redeemers as much as Mary, but you don't find this. There is what you say and then there is practice. The practice does not agree with what you say. Only when the RCC can refer to everyone as co-redeemers as much as Mary will your answer be acceptable. Even so, it places too much on man and not on Christ when saying man is a co-redeemer. This word is particular to the cross work of Christ as the Redeemer without any co-redeemers.

    Catholics do not believe in keeping the word separate from the Church, as the Church is made up of the successors of the apostles who created the NT with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, it was the original teachings, actions and instructions of the apostles, of the Church that make up our New Testament. The Gospel that was preached orally was the teaching of the apostles and was separate from the 'word' at that time- the Old Testament. When the apostles wrote Acts, they wrote the actions of the apostles, of the Church, which later became the word. When Paul and the other apostles, the hierarchy of the Church, instructed the Christians at Corinthians, Rome, et cetera, these letters, became the word. The Church is not based on the bible, but rather the bible is based on the Church.
    I'll have to refuse your claim since this statement I do find unacceptable, "shall have equal authority with that testament itself." Man will never have equal testimony with the testament itself. The Word is unparalleled.

    The Bible which is the Word was foreknown by God and compiled in the 66 books that sums of Jesus the Word. God foreknew because The Godhead held a council between the Father, Son and Spirit the Son would be obedient unto the Father as expressed in the Word to erect authority on man. The RCC adds to those books which can be shown why they do not belong. The church does not come before the NT if the NT was in God's heart before it was recorded for the church. Ergo, this statement is false: "The Church is not based on the bible, but rather the bible is based on the Church". The Church is based on the Bible for the Bible was foreknown by God, thus, producing the Church. The RCC believes in non-OSAS having no confidence God has the foreknowledge to give eternal life at new birth. These two false teachings agree with each other as being not of God.

    Also, the church does not have what you call a heirarchy of 10 or 12 different levels like a corporation. There are the apostles and the elders, that's it. This is the extent of the levels in the Church. Apostles operate regionally while elders take care of a Biblical locality. The corporations of the world come from the RCC system, but no such system is found the NT.

    As far as I could tell you were not quoting from official sources, so I wouldn't categorize the Catholic Church by these individuals' responses. A better source to quote from on the beliefs of Catholics would be the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am not aware that the Catholic Church holds as an official belief that you must have private revelation regarding any verse. Rather, you are briefly quoting non-official sources who are arguing, from a biblical basis, the problems in sola scriptura and private interpretation of scripture.
    You would be agreeing then that the problem with the RCC is that they believe "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit..." when you said "I am not aware that the Catholic Church holds as an official belief that you must have private revelation regarding any verse." What you say and what the RCC says is indeed the problem! You both agree that the Holy Spirit does not give personal revelation. And the list of this thought goes on, "Catechism for Adults on page 10 says, 'How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church.'"

    This is of course Judaized Christianity of intermediary priesthood that should be rejected in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

  6. #6
    stray bullet Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troy
    Since what I said does not indicate I claimed the RCC said that Mary is a substitute for Christ, why speak such words as though I had? How odd that Mary would be the substitute for Christ and Christ the substitute for mankind. I know this is not what the RCC believes.
    via: "How can a sinner be a substitute?"

    I find this inappropriate still since others should be called co-redeemers as much as Mary, but you don't find this. There is what you say and then there is practice. The practice does not agree with what you say. Only when the RCC can refer to everyone as co-redeemers as much as Mary will your answer be acceptable. Even so, it places too much on man and not on Christ when saying man is a co-redeemer. This word is particular to the cross work of Christ as the Redeemer without any co-redeemers.
    Co-redeemer has been used to describe Mary and all mankind. I certainly didn't think up "Oh, everyone is a co-redeemer too". If you read about the Church, this is the position. It does not take away from Christ, but draws us to the death and resurrection. It emphasizes, rightly, our dire need to bring others to the faith. In realizing we are 'co-redeemers' we understand the importance not only of our salvation, but of mankind.


    I'll have to refuse your claim since this statement I do find unacceptable, "shall have equal authority with that testament itself." Man will never have equal testimony with the testament itself. The Word is unparalleled.
    Man is not equal with the word of God, because he is fallible. However, anything that comes from God is infallible. The apostles were men, but wrote the bible. Thus the Church, the successors of the apostles, when led by the Holy Spirit, teach infallibly, as all that comes from God is infallible.

    The Bible which is the Word was foreknown by God and compiled in the 66 books
    66 books according to whom? I don't see anything in the bible that states there are 66 books of revelation and that is all there will ever be.

    that sums of Jesus the Word. God foreknew because The Godhead held a council between the Father, Son and Spirit the Son would be obedient unto the Father as expressed in the Word to erect authority on man. The RCC adds to those books which can be shown why they do not belong.
    The Catholic Church teaches what comes from the Holy Spirit. They did this in 33AD when there was no NT, only Holy Tradition. Much of Holy Tradition was written down as scripture, the Gospels, the Acts, the Epistles. However, much of apostolic teach still remains and that is what the Church continues to teach.

    The church does not come before the NT if the NT was in God's heart before it was recorded for the church. Ergo, this statement is false: "The Church is not based on the bible, but rather the bible is based on the Church". The Church is based on the Bible for the Bible was foreknown by God, thus, producing the Church. The RCC believes in non-OSAS having no confidence God has the foreknowledge to give eternal life at new birth. These two false teachings agree with each other as being not of God.
    OSAS is unbiblical. The NT refers to the actually writing of the apostles. While the truth of the NT is as eternal as God, the documents themselves come to us from the Holy Spirt and via the Church. Since the Church is the pillar and protector of truth, the bible comes from the Church. The Catholic Church predates the bible and the texts found in the bible.

    Also, the church does not have what you call a heirarchy othe levels in the Church. Apostles operate regionally while elders take care of a Biblical locality. The corporations of the world come from the RCC system, but no such system is found the NT.
    That is not how the early Church worked. The early Church taught inter-regionally. The seven catholic letters of the NT, for example, confirm this. These letters were instruction for the whole Church, not merely from one source to a location, but to all locations.


    You would be agreeing then that the problem with the RCC is that they believe "No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
    This is what is said in the bible. That's not a problem, but the truth. Prophesy comes from God, not private (man) interpretation.

    This shows plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one's private judgment or private spirit..." when you said "I am not aware that the Catholic Church holds as an official belief that you must have private revelation regarding any verse." What you say and what the RCC says is indeed the problem! You both agree that the Holy Spirit does not give personal revelation. And the list of this thought goes on, "Catechism for Adults on page 10 says, 'How can you get the true meaning of the Bible? You can get it only from God's official interpreter, the Catholic Church.'"
    Private interpretation is not the same as Holy Spirit revelation. When private interpretation is led by the Holy Spirit, it is no longer private interpretation, but a revelation.

    "Catechism for adults" is not a official source from the Catholic Church. However, it is correct in that the Catholic Church, when acted upon by the Holy Spirit, offers interpretation of scripture for us, from God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stray bullet
    via: "How can a sinner be a substitute?"
    How can a sinner be a substitute? Not via. Not at all! Mary does not substitute for she was born into sin.

    Co-redeemer has been used to describe Mary and all mankind. I certainly didn't think up "Oh, everyone is a co-redeemer too". If you read about the Church, this is the position. It does not take away from Christ, but draws us to the death and resurrection. It emphasizes, rightly, our dire need to bring others to the faith. In realizing we are 'co-redeemers' we understand the importance not only of our salvation, but of mankind.
    Those whom I fellowship with in the church would never call man the redeemer or co-redeemer. This debases Christ. There is only one substitute. The church, in history, at least those who were spiritual Christians, never think of themselves as redeemers. This is solely Christ's work. I am drawn to Christ not because I am a redeemer, for I am not, but because I believe in Christ that He is true. Satan is the author of confusion. Christians say we have a relationship and responsibility to God's grace, but never do we use the same word applied solely to the Son of God, our Redeemer, Lord andSavior. God does not think of us as Redeemers, so why do you? You go too far, and does not help mankind. When you speak, you should think of the little brother, or those who are weak in their flesh. If they hear about themselves as redeemers they will take their eye off Christ a little more. It would not give reverence to God. You lack reverence and love man too much for man is a sinner who wants to be co-redeemer on par with God.

    Man is not equal with the word of God, because he is fallible. However, anything that comes from God is infallible. The apostles were men, but wrote the bible. Thus the Church, the successors of the apostles, when led by the Holy Spirit, teach infallibly, as all that comes from God is infallible.
    Yes, and still it is false to say that man is equal with God: "shall have equal authority with that testament itself". If you don't believe this quote from the RCC minions, then you should stand up and reject it, but if you can't repent, know why - you are possessed by the demon of the roman catholicism.

    66 books according to whom? I don't see anything in the bible that states there are 66 books of revelation and that is all there will ever be.
    According to the Holy Spirit. If you read the Bible you find additional books are not in harmony with God's Word. Mistakes are easily found. Ergo, God's Word is 66 books. I know you need a legalistic declaration but God will not cater to your fleshly demands.

    The Catholic Church teaches what comes from the Holy Spirit. They did this in 33AD when there was no NT, only Holy Tradition. Much of Holy Tradition was written down as scripture, the Gospels, the Acts, the Epistles. However, much of apostolic teach still remains and that is what the Church continues to teach.
    The Roman Catholic Church did not come about until the 5th and 6th centuries. The Constantine church preceded it in the 4th century.

    The Scriptures are not tradition but the very Word of God you despise so much that you call it tradition. God is not a tradition. He is God and Jesus is the Word, the 66 books of the Bible which are His fullnesss. They are not deemed holy tradition, but the compiled Word.

    The RCC does not abide in the teaching of the apostles appointing elders to take care of Biblical localities, for the RCC denies Biblical locality in addition to the RCC relishing in its other false teachings.

    OSAS is unbiblical. The NT refers to the actually writing of the apostles. While the truth of the NT is as eternal as God, the documents themselves come to us from the Holy Spirt and via the Church. Since the Church is the pillar and protector of truth, the bible comes from the Church. The Catholic Church predates the bible and the texts found in the bible.
    I understand you have no faith to believe God can give eternal life because you are not a Christian and have no faith in God's all-knowing infinite foreknowledge of when to give eternal life. The documents of God's Word do not come from the church, but are given unto the church. This is proper cause and effect. You can't have church+Holy Spirit as the source. There is only one source = Holy Spirit. Satan is the author of confusion. Since the church is the protector of the truth it must abide in the Holy Spirit which gives the Bible.

    The Roman Catholic Church came after the Word of God in its beginnings in the 4th or 5th century. The Word was eternally existing for the Word is the Son of God. See John 1.1.

    The Word of God even predicted the coming of the great harlot RCC in describing the Thyatira church period.

    http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/7churches.htm

    That is not how the early Church worked. The early Church taught inter-regionally. The seven catholic letters of the NT, for example, confirm this. These letters were instruction for the whole Church, not merely from one source to a location, but to all locations.
    I know this is not how the early church worked, that's why I brought up the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church. The early church taught there were indepedent Biblical localities taken care of by elders appointed by regional apostles. It is that simple. There is no control beyond the center for a region of apostles alone. No heirarchy and power control system of the RCC popery. Most popes, if not all popes are going to hell because they were never born-again and love the way of the world too much.

    Nothing in the NT even remotely suggests power control above regional centers inter-regionally. The 7 church letters to the 7 churches in Rev. 2 & 3 where written to indepdent Biblical localities to show forth the church age these past 20 centuries in the 7 church periods. These 7 local churches were all part of a region which had a regional center of aposles, and the Work of the Ministry for the Church did not expand beyond this. These 7 church letters are for the universal church.

    This is what is said in the bible. That's not a problem, but the truth. Prophesy comes from God, not private (man) interpretation.
    God speaks privately to individuals in their spirit by the Holy Spirit. The veil is rent and we all have access to God's Spirit. This does not mean we go on our own way from the Church, for we still need agreement in the body of Christ as well.

    Your rejection of this truth produces the judaized Christianity of intermediary priesthood (levitical) and paying for indulgences, and confessing to a priest. Today we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Private interpretation is not the same as Holy Spirit revelation. When private interpretation is led by the Holy Spirit, it is no longer private interpretation, but a revelation.
    Revelation from the Holy Spirit is done privately in the spirit of the believer. It is not done with a loud cry or by approval of the senate of the RCC. God speaks personally to people privately in revelation. It is no longer revelation if it demands the consultation of the mind of the senate of the Roman Catholic Church. Thank God for this the veil is rent.

    "Catechism for adults" is not a official source from the Catholic Church. However, it is correct in that the Catholic Church, when acted upon by the Holy Spirit, offers interpretation of scripture for us, from God.
    The Roman Catholic Church is without authority for its intepretations have shown to be false: e.g. intermediary preisthood, paying for indulgences, purgatory, goddess idolatry, and hierarchy structure beyond the call the of the Scriptures of Biblical locality.

    May you yet come to Christ to receive new birth and enter into the new creation so that you may no longer stray like a warped bullet.

    You're banned for creating confusion, mindless repetition and belligerency, as one of the tares, trying to look like the wheat, whom God will put His sickle to.

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    All Christians are saints, not just those the Roman Catholic Church designate for sainthood.

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    Saint2300 Guest

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    Protestand might not be right.
    I always feel confused with denominations.:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint2300
    Protestand might not be right.
    I always feel confused with denominations.:)
    As you should since God did not ordain denominations. Satan is winning with dominations.

    God said do not divide the church by denominations: don't say "I am of Cephas" or "I am of Apollos"; don't even say "I am of Christ" which akin to non-denominationalism, when compared to denominations.

    What is the solution? It is already disclosed on the forum under "Church and the Work", repeating the clarity of the Word. God's way is according to Biblical locality wherein the apostles apoint elders to take care of Biblical localities, that is, whole towns, cities or remote areas.

    Thus, whatever differences arise in a locality are contained within, and do not spread beyond to other localities or regions. We should never divide the church based on persons, doctrine, regions or countries; not even time!

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