Mor(m)ons Should Feel Ashamed

[evan]

evan,

Don't accuse that I don't love you, for I do love you.

No you don't. Your actions are patantly devoid of real love. I understand that you are far from perfect, as am I. However, you do not know even the Biblical meaning of the word 'love'.

And I tell you the truth because I don't want you to go to hell. I would not wish this on my worse enemy. Presently you are on the course for hell because you have not accepted the uncreated Jesus as your Savior, but prefer to believe in a created concoction as taught by the cult of mormonism.

That's another case of MINDLESS REPETITION. That is also a 4 point infraction, as you simply repeat over and over that Jesus is 'uncreated' without providing any proof. If you do not address this issue, I will cease communication with you.

Due to your selfishness, you have done this to yourself, willingly accepted their lie and the lie of one man Joseph Smith who rejected Christ and Christianity. So you are without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated. And so, John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Because you do not have the love of the Lord, you seek to alter His loving Word by trying to make the Father, the Son and Spirit created separate beings instead of the One and Only Uncreated Triune Being. At least realize you are not Christian as Christianity has long since been conveyed in the 66 books of the Bible.

I am "without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated."????

Are you for real?????

Have you completely missed the entire point of the Bible?? You have not shown any verse from the Bible where it says that God will condemn me for not believing that Jesus is 'uncreated'.

It does say that God will condemn those who don't believe in Jesus.

The book of Revelation was written AD 95/96 which is clearly the last book of the Bible intended since it speaks of eternity future in the new city. Rev. 22.18,19 as part of the summary book of the Bible sums up any alterations one may make in all of the 66 books of the Bible. As Gen. 1 gives us eternity past, Rev. 21 gives us eternity future. Rev. 22 gives us the last warning. Gen. 3 gives us the details of Gen. 2. Rev. 12 to 19 give us the details of Rev. 6 to 11. Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age, concurrent with Rev. 6. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 5 is Lamb slain on the cross along with the first seal which shows the arrow has been shot out of the bow giving Satan a deadly wound at the cross. God seals the 66 books by the number 66 too. 6 is the number of Satan, but also the number of man because man loves Satan's ways, and the redemptive design separates these two in the 66 books. Mormons and the Roman Church and the Eastern Church seek to add books to the 66 books of God's Word. God will judge you for this sin according to Rev. 22.18,19. The millennial kingdom (Rev. 20) separates the dispensation of grace from eternity future. The 1000 years is a transition period when Christ reigns on earth before the new city and new earth commences. God works not in jerky motions, but flows from one dispensation to the next.

Revelation is the last book written for the 66 books of the Bible-the complete Word of God (John 1.1). Rev. 22.18,19 not only involves this book of Revelation, but may be extended to all the books of the Bible because Revelation sums up all the books of the Bible.

As great as that is, you have no presented any scriptural evidence to say that Revelation is the last book of the Bible. It is widely accepted that John wrote the Book of Revelation about AD 91, on the isle of Patmos. However, after that he returned to Ephesus where he wrote his three other epistles.

This alone shows that the Book of Revelation was never intended to be the final book of the Bible. Despite its contents, it never claims to be the final book, it just seems to be convenient. I have shown that the Book of Revelation is the prophecy John refers to:

Rev 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Please show other scriptural evidence that the Bible as a whole is considered to be the 'prophecy' that John speaks of in Revelation 22.

Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin

, vicarious sacrifice (Is. 53.5,6,8,10,11,12; John 1.29, 11.49-52, Acts 10.43, 13.38,39, Rom. 5.6,8).

You are quite right that the Old Testament says that the Messiah will die as a sacrifice. However, I asked you to show where in the Old Testament it says that the sacrifice of Jesus would replace the sacrifices of the Old Testament.

Have you not the faith to believe the perfect sacrifice to be uncreated?

It is not a question of faith. By the way, I am still waiting for you to offer scripture which says that God is 'uncreated'.

I am saved by His paying the eternal price for the forgiveness of my sins because He is uncreated and died for me which I have accepted freely and can never be lost, but you don't have this eternal blessing because you worship a facsimile which you make a created being in your selfish image. This is your great sin and why you will be eternally separated from God when you are judged at Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is not love that you want this.

As much as your sincereity if admirable, you are saved (if at all) because you believe in Jesus Christ and his atonement, and obey the commandments of God. You have not offered any scriptural evidence which states that God will condemn me for not believing that he is 'uncreated'.

God cannot be different beings because then you have created beings and a God that is impersonal social construct instead a personal singular Triune Being that has always existed.

That does not make sense.

My God has always existed who created you and me, so He trumps your god always because you admit your god is created.

Here we go with the "My God is better than your God" part.

Since nothing in nature happens all by itself and nothing in the supernatural happens all by itself, then the ultimate creator cannot himself be created, because if he was, then you would have to ask who created him.

You keep repeating this with no scriptural evidence to support it. Does this count as mindless repetition? Or do you only issue those to people whom you can't beat with your self-righteous ego?

By your own logic, it would seem that if nothing happens all by itself, then God must have been created, or he couldn't exist. The only other alternative is that God simply popped into existance, and is completely devoid of participation in your logic which states that nothing can exists without a cause. If nothing exists without a cause, then God too must follow that same pattern.

And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin. The exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years shows it will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved, so one knows without a doubt there was not an eternity of the past of causes and effects for you to attain sinlessness, but you were created by the uncreated creator. However, we both know your spirit is dead to God and your conscience can't accept this simple reasoning because you are hellbound and don't want to be saved.

You say that mankind has 'evolved' over 6000 years and will be sinless soon. I say that that is rubbish, as John says:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thus we see that there is no mention of mankind becoming sinless. You claim this because of one scripture alone (I can't even find your reference for it) that apparently claims that those who live in the 'new city' are sinless?

Please provide this reference.

And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin.

I chose to repeat this part of your post as it highlights some serious error on your part. You say that this is your 'proof' that God is 'uncreated'? By this rationale, you state that:
1) If God is created, then there is an eternity of gods creating gods
2) If #1 is correct, I have had an eternity to become sinless
and
3) This cannot be true as I still sin

Do I really need to point out the confusion here? I will anyway:
1) Why do you assume that I have been alive, on earth, for an eternity?

The one who is capable of doing good is the man who has accepted the uncreated Savior Jesus Christ. A man who does good by the "good self" whilst still rejecting Jesus as being uncreated and as the personal Savior in the Trinity is a man still hostile and separated from God. You are a person who still is hostile to God. You can't see God, nor will God reveal Himself to you until you accepted Jesus as being uncreated because your personal problem is rejecting the uncreatedness of God.

Please provide evidence that 'acceptence' of Jesus hinges upon believing that he is 'uncreated'.

Again, please provide evidence that God will condemn me for not believing that Jesus is 'uncreated'.

Contrary to your professed belief, I read:

Revelation 22:14 [i]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/i]

There is no mention of an belief that God is 'uncreated'.

Different people have their different things they use to reject God, but yours is that you reject Him being uncreated; therefore, all you have is hell which is a blessing to Christians to keep you eternally separated from us because you admit to us now you never want to be saved as we are saved. We will no longer shed a tear for you in the new city.

That is not a statement from someone who actually knows God, nor what real love is. Your words betray you.

Please show me how you can think that because I do not believe that God is 'uncreated' it means that I have rejected God.

I keep asking for scriptural evidence of this and you continue to fail to do this. In fact you posted me an infraction based upon:

You are still committing repetitive self-declarations in your selfishness without evidence. Since the Bible only ever has taught an all-knowing, omnipresent and omnipotent God being uncreated which continues in oral and written tradition and the writings of Paul in the history of the church unchallenged, then for you to introduce a new teaching diabolically opposed to Christianity, you would need some evidence, but you supply none, so this infraction is to warn you to stop committing this sin, because this is not a forum for such mindlessness. It is not conducive to discussion, because being a clanging bell while the burden of the proof is on you will not help your case at all. Satan does no less in proclamating things without evidence or support. Because there is not an eternity of the past of cause and effects since you would still not be sinning now if having had an eternity to be perfected, then you know the uncreated created. This is proper cause and effect. A dead conscience can't sense the uncreated.

You accuse me of being a 'clanging bell', and being 'not conducive to discussion'. I have never seen someone more oppressive nor dictatorial in suppressing discussion than you are. You issue infractions to others breaking rules that you do constantly, yet you seem to abide outside these rules.

So, what is my evidence for Jesus being 'uncreated'?

Jesus is spoken of being the 'Son of God'. This implies a relationship that is very much one of relationship. God refers to himself as our 'Father'. Indeed, LDS claim that God is our Father, as Paul says in Acts:

Act 17:28-29 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And compare with:

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

As such, being children of God, we may become like him.

Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church, once said "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be."

There is, I admit, limited scriptural evidence in the Bible that God is 'created'. I would point out that you have offered NO evidence that God is 'uncreated', and yet continue to issue me infractions for saying that this is so. However, when we examine statements surrounding this, a pattern is found.

Lorenzo's statement is clearly applicable to Christ himself, a God who became mortal for a time and yet was still and is still God. Furthermore, we are told that we can become like Christ and God - we can "put on the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-10), and we can become "like him" (1 John 3:2) and we can receive glorious resurrected bodies (Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:40-45) just as Christ has. Futher to this point, I would add that as Jesus has a physical resurrected body (Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have), and Jesus is the 'express image of his Father' In fact, the scriptures go beyond saying that we can become 'like' them to saying that we are actually "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18), which implies that we will on some level be equal with Christ, inasmuch as we too are "joint-heirs". What that practically means, I offer no speculation, merely what scripture itself states.

Again, I admit that there are no direct statements that to the effect that God is 'created'. Some have pointed to the verse from Revelation 1:5-6

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

which seems to state that it is Jesus was washed us from our sins in his own blood, and then makes us kings and priests unto God and his Father. I do not claim to know if that is what this verse is indeed saying, but it does seem to say just that.

If that interpretation is correct, then it does indeed say that God (not Jesus) has a Father. Even if you accept that 'God' refers to this 'one being', then that God has a Father too.

The distinctions of the 3 Persons are distinctions, nothing about separate beings; that is why Christianity has always believed in the distinct Persons of the Godhead and never anything about different beings. Christianity is monotheistic, not polytheistic or tritheistic.

I have provided scriptures which I claim support my beliefs. You have offered nothing in return to support yours (correct me if I am wrong). I say that such scriptures demonstrate separate individuals, you say they mean mere distinctions, however, your have nothing else to support this. I have offered scriptures which clarify the notion of 'one' god, and you offer nothing in return.

LDS theoogy claims that after the death of the apostles, Christianity fell into darkness, characterised by the loss of essential doctrines, such as baptism, church authority etc, and that this continued for many centuries. If this is indeed true, then the doctrine of separate individuals making up the Godhead is among them. I ask you to provide evidence of this doctrine - ie: that God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 'one' being.

Your cult comes along 1800 years and wants to teach polytheism, but this is overassuming, since the humility of reading the Bible is not to read more than what is there, so since you can't find anything about the Holy Spirit being a created being or Christ Jesus being another created being and the Father yet another created being, know that you create this false teaching because you do the work of the devil. My prayer for you is that you do not need to be a pawn of Satan, but God can deliver you from this demonic influence of moronical mormonism.

INFRACTION - INSULTING OTHERS - 2 points.

You have referred to me personally as a 'moron', and to my beliefs are 'moronical'. Since you are prepared to use the same term, I find that your use of the term 'moronical mormonism' is not directed solely at my faith (which may not be strictly 'insulting' of a person proper) and thus is also a personal insult directed at me, the implication of your many posts being that only a mormon would believe in the LDS faith.

I have never said God the Father and God the Son are different beings and of course there is no such evidence for this idea of Satan.

Apologies - mistype.

God the Father and God the Son are One Being in the Trinity. Rev. 22.1,3,4 talk about God the Father and the Lamb, which is Jesus, having one face as one Being. I love these verses in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible that sum up the Word of God and give the last warning which sadly you fail to heed. You won't be with us in the new city where God and the Lamb with be at the center.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

This implies that the Lamb (Christ) and the Father have different names. Here is an example that paralells the verses of chapter 22:1-4. It is the Father's name which is written in their foreheads. When we read:

Revelation 22:1-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Thus this verse is capable of being interpreted as referring to either Christ or the Father. I find this verse to be highly symbolic in nature, as is most of the Book of Revelation. It was a vision, and made much use of symbolism and imagery (the tree of life etc). As such, I find that it is a highly questionable verse to rest your entire doctrine upon, which you do. You also have provided no other scripture to support this claim.

It is sad when someone tries to interpret the Bible with their head without the Holy Spirit in their spirit. The Bible tells us we shall know them by their fruit. I know you by your false fruit by your claiming this time now, which included Hitler, Stalin and Polpot as a millennial peace.

Please tell me when I have claimed that we are now in millennial peace. I have never stated such, nor is it a teaching of my church. As such, your claim to know me by this 'fruit' is completely wrong and without basis. Thus you do not know me at all.

Since you have false teaching and false works, I know you are not saved and the Holy Spirit shows the ultimate reason, because you reject the uncreatedness of the Trinity and prefer to worship a created being Satan who convinces you to believe in polytheism and impersonal social god. Only the uncreated God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and omni-present. No created being has this power.

Again you are saying that salvation is determined upon believing that God is 'uncreated'. You have yet to support this belief from scripture. YOu also ignore the teachings of Christ when state that obedience to his commandments is what salvation is based upon (Matthew 19:17, 10:22, 24:13, Mark 16:16, Luke 7:50 (maybe), Jophn 14:15 and Acts 2:21)

Matt. 24.13 says in context regarding the Jewish remnant, "he that shall endure unto the end" referring to Israel. Who is he? He is of Israel who preaches "this gospel of the kingdom" which "shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (v. 14). It is Israel that is a witness unto all the nations by its troubles it goes through as the world comes against them. Christians do not come against Israel, but love the little brother.

But this clearly is not so: Jesus is speaking to his disciples and likewise to those of the church:

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many

Obviously this may refer to the Jews who were still waiting for the Messiah, but the fact remains that it was said to the disciples, who were to administer the kingdom of God. Since a Christian is someone who follows Christ, and we know that anti-Christs are to rise even now, this cannot be construed as being a direction to the Jewish people. Rather, it is a warning to the disciples of the challenges that they will face. The rest of the Jesus' words follow in this pattern. He tells them that many calamities will come upon them. He says:

Matthew 24:9 [i]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[i/]

This statement is also delivered to his disciples. I fail to see how you can think that this is about Israel, other than speaking of the geographical area, nor do you provide any kind of explaination. Unless you are prepared to offer actual examination of the text, you cannot just keep mindlessly repeating the same mantras over and over.

There are both rewards for Christians as well as Jewish remnant to be the center of all nations. Matt. 24.13 is speaking specifically of the Jewish remnant because Matt. 24.4-31 is referring to Israel, just as Matt. 24.32ff is referring to Christians (the body of Christ: the church). The apostles were both Christians as well as a Jewish remnant for they were all Jews.

You keep saying that, but you haven't actually examined the text. You appear to just have copied it from someone else. Please actually engage the text to support your claims. Please show how it refers to Israel and the Jewish people in order to support your (now changed) claim that 'enduring to the end' is for the Jews not the Christians.

Nothing about mormon-morons other than to say...

I find you to be a rude and offensive person. A person who was truly trying to follow God would not act this way. They would act the way Jesus commanded, not trying to prove their Christian 'credentials' by repeating a unsupported claim of condemnation for allt hose who do not believe that God is 'uncreated'.

Matt. 24.4-31 The reasons were given which you did not respond to how they are words and references to Israel not Christians. Please refer to these explanations again.

I read part of that, but it is incorrect. Matthew 24:9-13 is directed to the Christian disciples. It is spoken to them alone, not to the Jewish nation. Please engage the text yourself, and not rely upon someone else's interpretation.

Since the explanations I gave for your Infractions you did not respond to specifically as inaccurate, they stand, and since you can not say the same of me other than by self-declarations on your part, your response is considered of no account. This is the reasonable thing to do to deal with your hostility. The violations of yours stand....

That is exactly what is to be expected from someone who is more concerned with their own self-righteous pride than actual humility.

[evan]

In doing all that I can do relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to help you evan, consider these questions honestly with yourself:

Okay.

1) Instead of shutting your mind down for Satan, why don't you ask yourself what caused your god and who caused the god who caused that god and the god that caused that god? So on and on.

I have. The Lord has not seen fit to provide an answer to that. However, it does not concern me. There are many things that the Lord has not revealed, and I trust that he will in his own due time.

Likewise, have you asked where God came from? Is it enough for you to just say "He was uncreated" without understanding what that means?

2) You would come to the conclusion that there is a never ending chain of gods causing gods in your kingdom in the eternity of the past, but how can this be? And can it be disproven?

Perhaps, but you have not offered anything to disprove it at all.

]3) Christians agree before being saved we were sinners and no man is without sin. All which is born of the flesh is flesh. Even as believers we are often selfish and even sin, but to much less degree onwards towards being perfected for the new city which takes some time to reach, even through the millennial reign when Christ returns. The question becomes if we all sin and none are sinless and if there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods you suppose, then you would have had an eternity of the past to be perfected by virtue of the approximation towards infinity and the exponential progression of our conscience in just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years it will not take an infinity to reach sinlessness for the new city, yet you still sin; so, it is not possible there be an eternity of the past of your gods creating your gods as taught in moronical mormonism, but it is a fabrication of your cult, so why believe it? Why be so selfish to make us such a lie?

INFRACTION - INSULTING OTHERS - 2 points.

Your logic makes no sense. You assume that gods creating gods means that I have had an eternity to become sinless? This implies that you think that I have been around for the same eternity as the gods.

4) Since of course you can't let go of this lie, any Christian would reasonably conclude you have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are bound for hell. Thus would you not agree you will be in hell soon?

[sarcasm]Oh my gosh! You are so absolutely right![/sarcasm]

Your other false fruit which show you are not in Christ (according to your profile answers as of this date):

Considering that you got my other 'fruit' wrong, I do not trust your judgement.

- denying Christianity in the belief in the Trinity
- denying the distinction of God's 3 Persons as the Uncreated One Being, the great I AM

No comment.

- rejecting God's infinite foreknowledge to give eternal life at new birth which can never be lost (note that you believe in a created being which does not have infinite foreknowledge to be able to do this; that is, your god is impotent to be able to give eternal life at new birth which can never be lost. For example, if you think you are saved, you believe it's possible not to be saved tomorrow. Satan keeps this doubt in your mind because you were not truly saved in the first place. The glue that sticks is not a strong bonding like Christians have-once-saved-always-saved. Your god of mormonism is really just a fabricated facsimile and idol which you create for yourself to be disobedient and independent from God because you want to be saved another way and deep down inside, you are too selfish to be saved according to God's design. You reject your uncreated creator.)

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that once you are saved you are always saved. Please provide scriptural evidence of this. On the other hand, we have much that shows that we can 'lose' salvation. You also say that because 'your god' is uncreated, it has power whereas 'my god' does not, as it is created. This is without any support from scripture.

1Co 10:8-12 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Thus we see that it is very possible to 'lose' your salvation, and that the Bible does not state anywhere that people are 'once saved, always saved'.

- adding books to the complete Word of God's 66 books

Dealt with before

- altering Biblical tongues to mean gibberish babble

You obviously know nothing about LDS faith (as you have shown already), nor do you know nothing about me. I do not believe that biblical tongues are 'gibberish babble'. I responded "No" to that question because of some other part of it. The part I did not agree with is:

Do you accept that tongues are known by the speaker though may be unknown to the hearer if the latter does not know that particular language?

This to me negates the whole point of tongues. If you will supply scriptural evidence to the contrary, I will re-evaluate my answer.

- rejecting Jesus died on the cross on good Friday and resurrected on Sunday

I do not reject this. What I disagree with is your claim of the exact time of his death and date:

Do you believe when Jesus died on the cross at 3 p.m. on Friday, April 1st (Nissan 14), 33 AD,

I do not believe that you know that exact information.

- rejecting firstfruits to the harvest

I do not know what this relates to. I cannot find it in the questions.

- rejecting baptism by fire, ie the use of hell to burn off the dross of false works

I do not find the term 'baptism of fire' in the New Testament at all.

- denying Paul went to towns to appoint elders for localities which God needs to be fulfilled before His return

I agree that Paul appointed elders etc, but please show scriptural evidence that support your claim as you have written above.

- rejecting the rapture of the Saints as was Jesus raptured

I do not reject the 'rapture' as Jesus was 'raptured'. I have offered my explainations for my beliefs which you have pointedly ignored. You have not answered my explainations at all.

- rejecting the dimensions of the new city in Rev. 21 have purpose (don't believe in universalism of infinite space for all to be saved, for God says hell is vast and the new city is only a certain size)

I agree that the new city in Revelation 21 has its size described. I disagree with this:

Do you believe God discloses the size of the New City to indicate how few are actually saved which should motivate a person to receive the cross as a helpless sinner?

This will never motivate someone to come to Christ. What will motivate them is God's love. This statement shows that you indeed have a 'head salvation', not a 'heart salvation'. Your beliefs are all based on what you think, and how you see things, not on your actions which are the true indicator of living, vital faith.

Do you agree 1.2 billion souls (resurrected-saved) would be a reasonable estimated upper limit according to the space provided of 1379 x 1379 miles with walls 216 feet high? (Rev. 21.16,17)

How can anyone agree with that??? Talk about off-the-planet speculation!

- rejecting the Bible when it says the old earth will be burnt up and that there be a new city on a NEW EARTH which is also without the sea, that it be a physical earth since in the 17 point proof the new city is a physical city.

This is not what I object to and you know it. I object to your UN-BIBLICAL claim that MARS! will be the home of the new city.

I find your use of these questions to 'prove' that I am hell-bound to be highly suspect. You have not included the full statements as made in the questions, nor have you addressed my concerns with them which I have previously posted. Also, you include statements that are not supported by scripture as being indicators of faith.

[Churchwork]

evan,

The reason the Lord has not shown you who caused your god is because you reject the Lord, will not receive revelation from Him and instead prefer to believe in the assumed position of an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. The fact remains since nothing in the natural or supernatural happens all by itself, therefore know that God did it because God is uncreated. To be uncreated is just that, which means God has existed for an eternity of the past in His Triune Being of Father, Son and Spirit, and He has no cause for He is uncaused. Understand why it is wrong to say God is a social collective of beings creating each other in the eternity of the past since God is uncreated and personal, not this impersonal collection of created beings. Christians will always refuse your heresy on that point.

The proof always stands that since you still sin, know that there was not an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, for you would have had an eternity to be perfected without sin. In just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years we see it won't take long at all to reach sinlessness in the saved, let alone the need for an infinite amount of time. The eternity of the past of gods creating gods of mormonism is an assumed position brought in by Satan to reject God of the Bible and to try to alter the Word of God in your heart.

You don't understand calculus. In calculus anything approximating infinity is deemed as infinite. If there is an infinity of the past of gods creating gods as taught in mormonism then anything derived from them would also be within the realm of approximating infinity so that you would have had an eternity of the past to be without sin, yet you still sin. This shows it is not possible, and that mormonism is a lie. Based on this sound reasoning to continue to refer to mormonism as moronical due to your assumed position is most applicable; it is not an insult but your true condition. Know what you are so you can change. If you don't know what you are then you will never consider repenting.

The reason you are so sarcastic is because mormonism continues to jade you and lock you into being a moron as given by your blind faith in gods creating gods in the infinity of the past without reason. Anytime you make a self-declaration, I can't respond to it, because there is nothing to respond to. It is merely just your selfish center proclamating itself without basis or support, and all you have is the continued shutting your mind down. e.g. "no comment".

There are many verses that show once-saved-always-saved, so this should not be in dispute. Know that your god is a liar since he is impotent to give you eternal life at new birth which is eternal.

1 Cor. 10.8-12 does not say they had eternal life already, but "these events happened as a warning to us, so that we would not crave evil things as they did or worship idols as some of them did" (vv. 6-7). Anyone in Israel still needs to believe personally to be saved to receive eternal life at new birth. What God refers to saying Israel is the chosen nation is that He first revealed Himself to the nation of Israel not that everyone in Israel is saved arbirtrarily. You don't know the Word.

Heb. 6.4-6 is not referring to loss of eternal life but loss of rewards. This study shows this. Rejected (v.8)—This is the same word as the “rejected” found in 1 Corinthians 9.27. There Paul describes how he buffets his body and brings it into bondage lest by any means after he has preached to others he himself should be rejected. Naturally every Christian knows that Paul is not in danger of becoming unsaved, but that he is afraid lest he miss the crown and the kingdom. What is meant by being rejected of God? For example, you have a bicycle which was originally in good shape and fit to be used, but now it is broken and rusted and cannot be used. By saying this it does not mean that this bicycle has disappeared; it is only being rejected, put aside because useless. To be rejected by God does not mean that a person has lost eternal life or is unsaved; it only means he is set aside by God and has thus become useless. To those believers who continue in sins, God has His discipline of putting them outside of glory—in outer darkness-without any part in the kingdom. This is what Matthew 25.30 means.

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

Know why you can't believe this, because your spirit is dead to God and you are going to hell.

Know that you have not dealt with your sin of adding to the 66 books of God's Word.

The part of the question on tongues that you said you rejected was, "Do you accept that tongues are known by the speaker though may be unknown to the hearer if the latter does not know that particular language?"

This shows you do believe in gibberish babble, contrary to your claim, since if the speaker does not know what he is saying, then obviously it is gibberish babble. Therefore, you accept gibberish babble teachings. And so you answered the question correctly according to your beliefs and false teachings, but your answer is wrong since there is no indication of gibberish babble in the Bible. None whatsoever! I can provide no support for your gibberish babble in the Bible, nor have you been able to do so, so know that what you believe is a lie as popularized by Pentecostalism today and the Montanism cult of the 2nd century.

You said you rejected "when Jesus died on the cross at 3 p.m. on Friday, April 1st (Nissan 14), 33 AD". Understand this is more the nature of moronical mormonism to reject things without reason. Note that you have no reason for rejecting this time disclosed in the Bible. The Bible says 3 p.m. Friday and we know according to the calendar the only possibility is 33 AD, Nissan 14, April 1st. That is to say there is no other possibility that fits in the 3rd decade of the first century given the days and dates that can be considered. This is how I know this which becomes the proof. Realize your assumed position is to say I don't have such proof even though I do.

In the question you reject regarding advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere, name something that does not have this characteristic. So will it be at the consummation of this age, where there is a firstfruits (Rev. 14.1-5) and a later harvest (14.14-16).

In the Bible there is baptism by water, Spirit and fire. You don't know this in the Bible because you don't know the Bible. Read Matt. 3.11, "baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire".

In the millennial kingdom Christ will return with His overcomer believers. The overcomer believers will reign on earth for the 1000 years (not all believers). What do they reign over? The nations and the cities. Consequently, there needs be not a jerky transition into this reigning with Christ with an iron rod, but there most be a transition that flows reasonably from one dispensation to the next. When the church is organized into one cohesive arrangement of apostles working regionally to appoint elders of localities to a certain requirement God needs to be in place (the specific degree of this manifestation is not given exactly), then He will return. Obviously He has not returned yet because this arrangement has not yet taken place in an obviously displayed fashion. However, the aim of Biblocality is to bring this to the attention of the body of Christ to appreciate to make it happen by the grace of God and by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In your rejecting of the rapture of the saints (as was Jesus raptured), you show no reason for rejecting the rapture, but blindly reject it, to which I need not respond since the burden of the proof falls on you for your hostility against the rapture of the saints in the church. Please respond to my response to your opinion and I would be happy to reply.

True salvation is based on receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior to truly receive His uncreated and eternal life at new birth and have the love of the Lord and do His will. You don't have this because based on your actions and thoughts you show that you live in your head, and not by the spirit, because you worship a created god admittedly. Instead of receiving the atonement of the uncreated Christ, you worship an idol which you create for yourself that you call a created being in your selfish image. It is a false Christ we are warned against. The Bible disclosed the size of the new city not without reason, and you have no reason for why the new city is a certain size. Christians have the reason and revelation by the Holy Spirit why the new city is the size disclosed in Rev. 21 because it is showing it is not nearly as vast as hell is. The number of saved is far less than the number of unsaved, far less than most suspect. This is very motivating to people to understand to realize that they ought to be sure they have truly been saved and not enter into a false salvation which they claim can be lost tomorrow. Oh how deceitful the heart is!

There is no speculation in God giving the size of the new city which is about the size of India or half the size of USA and we know that population levels are overcrowded as it is so that to be conservative 1.2 billion is an upper boundary for the size of the new city. It could in fact be far less.

Mars is the only possibility for the new city since there is no other possibility even remotely considered by those hostile to God's Word. Since the old earth will be burnt up and we know this scientifically too (within 5 billion years), and the new city is a physical new city, then it must be on a physical plane. The only near possibility is future Mars which is reasonably habitable and can be terraformed during the 1000 years.

In the questions given the only ones being focused on in our discussion are the questions which you flat out reject which you do without reason or support. This shows your hostility to God's Word. My job as a Christian is to point out this bad behavior of yours and false fruit does not give glory to God. It is humble to say you are not sure, but you don't say that, for in these questions you say you reject them without valid reason, and it is my duty to show you that not only have you no basis for doing so, but there is reason given in the Scriptures for why these questions are asked. They provide a protective barrier for Christians to show a person is not a Christian, because that person rejects these questions for no good reason at all, starting with the most important questions first.

[Churchwork]

evan,

Regarding love, the difference between you and I can be proven. While you accuse of being without love, I can prove you are without the love of the Lord. Your being without God's love is shown in your rejecting God by worshiping admittedly a created idol which you make for yourself you call a created being (a false Christ) and reject the uncreated Savior that Christians have fellowship with. That's why you prefer to believe in a lie that comes 1800 years after Jesus died on the cross to make a diabolically opposite teaching to God's Word and Christianity.

Since the burden of the proof is on you to justify this aberrant teaching of moronical mormonism that pops up 1800 years later to alter God's Word, you would need something more than your selfish proclamations. The proof remains that since nothing can happen all by itself, not in the natural or the supernatural realm, therefore, the uncreated had to have created. A quickened spirit by the Holy Spirit accepts this truth and so shall we know them by their fruit of not rejecting this fact. You are not saved because you worship the created, a creation of an idol you make for yourself-a false Christ.

My prayer for you is to not cease communication because that is just putting your head in the sand, but remain on point that nothing in nature happens without a cause to know that the uncreated had to have created since you still sin. You would not still be sinning if there was an eternity of the past of gods creating gods which in that system you would have existed approximating for an eternity of the past. Let go of your polytheism as taught by eastern cults and impersonal social created group of beings you call God, but receive God of the Bible who is One Being Uncreated and Triune and personal in His 3 Persons.

The Bible says those who reject Jesus will not be saved. The only way to the Father is through the Son. You do not accept Jesus because you have made Him a created being in your own selfish desires and are unwilling to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Since Jesus is uncreated existing before the foundations of the world and the universe in the eternity of the past with the Father and the Spirit in the Trinity and you reject this truth, know that you worship a false Christ and reject the church age, not just for 1800 years but the last 200 years too. This is why you are going to hell. Don't blame me, for this is your choice. I only tell you the truth to help convince you to receive the uncreated Christ.

Scholars agree Revelation was written AD 95/96, not AD 91. And, the range of when the 1,2,3 John were written could have been before or after 95/96. It poses no problem whether they were written before or after. Nothing needs be so strict.

Revelation 21 clearly shows us the picture of eternity future. Revelation 20 - the millennial kingdom - has not started yet since obviously the nations are still deceived, which they won't be in the millennium (v.3). Nothing surpasses eternity future, so Rev. 21 is truly the farthest thing in the future and would not require more information about until Christ steps down on the mount of olives to disclose more information. The 6th seal (Rev. 6) has not been completed yet, first rapture has not yet taken place (7.9). The trumpets of the Tribulation (Rev. 8ff) have not been blown. This is truly the last book of the Bible as it sums up most precisely what must happen at the end of this dispensation of grace, the Tribulation, parousia of Christ, the millennial reign and judgment for the unsaved after the 1000 years. Only then will the new city and the new earth commence. As a book of summary it can not be any more perfect!

Please read these verses pertaining to the vicarious sacrifice (Is. 53.5,6,8,10,11,12; John 1.29, 11.49-52, Acts 10.43, 13.38,39, Rom. 5.6,8) and replacement of temporary sacrifices. Read these verses and ask yourself why the sacrifices have stopped.

The way God discloses His being uncreated is for you to interpolate the fact that He says there is no gods before Him, therefore the Father, Son and Spirit are uncreated. By rejecting this fact, you reject the ten commandments and God of the Bible. Why continue to shut your mind down to this information? It's because you have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

What you worship is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods which is what atheists teach also because they reject the uncreated creator. Again, this is shown not possible because you still sin, but you would not still be sinning if you were derived from an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. In such a scenario, you would stem from the eternity of the past and not need an eternity to be without sin. Therefore, you had to have been created by the uncreated creator Who is Christ Jesus. You reject Him because you demand He is created when no Christian believes this, nor is it in the Bible, but as I have shown you, the Bible says, place no gods before God in the ten commandments in Ex. 20.3.

Yes this makes perfect sense! "God cannot be different beings because then you have created beings and a God that is impersonal social construct instead a personal singular Triune Being that has always existed." God could not be these different beings created and impersonal in a social construct. Nor would it make sense that there could be different beings because you would have to ask where they came from and could not happen all by themselves. Whereas Christianity teaches that nothing comes before God. God is uncreated. There are no gods before God.

My God is better than your god because your god admittedly needed to be created by my God is uncreated. You lose, so you go to hell; I win, because God chose me before the foundations of the world; that is, He foreknew my free-choice that I would receive Him.

It is a mindless repetition to keep shutting your mind down to the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself. Why not respond to this fact and deal with it instead claiming there is no Scriptural support for it. Where in the Bible does something happen all by itself? Where in science is such an idea every even considered? Understand your ego can not let you let go of the idol of an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. This is what keeps you separated from God. This is a Satanic teaching of atheists. You believe exactly what they believe, for this is how they reject God of the Bible too. You can't see it can you?

It is not possible that God popped into existence because nothing happens all by itself, but anything that is created has a cause, but that which is uncreated needs no cause. Therefore, the only possibility is God had to have been uncreated. This is the God of the Bible. And it is not possible God never existed because obviously we are here are we not? We could not be here if God never decided to create. It is illogical to say because nothing can exist without a cause therefore God must be caused, because the Bible says in Ex. 20.3 that there are no gods before God, so there is only one possibility. God is uncreated. Nothing causes God. Let go of your atheist idol of an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. If you are saved you believe in the uncreated God of the Bible. If you don't, you are not saved. Simple. Your conscience is dead and insensitive to God and so you can't accept this truth. The other proof God uses of His existence is to say you still sin. This is a Biblical truth. Since you still sin, there could not have been an eternity of the past of gods creating gods of mormonism because you would be within that scheme of gods creating gods approximating the eternity of the past to have had enough time to be without sin considering in merely 6000 years the exponential progression of our conscience will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. This revelation is derived from the Scriptures since the Bible says there is no gods before God and yes, you still sin, which would not be possible if you were derived from the eternity of the past. The Bible shows us the exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years. For example, it is no longer common practice among the nations to sacrifice their children. God used Israel to annihilate those nations that did that in Canaan.

Your god is Satan so Satan teaches you might as well go with him to hell because mankind will never cease to be sinful. But God and the Lamb will be at the center of the new city and the saints will be pillars of that new city and be without sin. Your teaching of mormonism agrees with Satan.

I did not say mankind "evolved" over 6000 years, so why quote me falsely? What I have said is that there is an exponential progression in man's conscience these past 6000 years such that there will be sinlessness observed in the saved very soon.

1 John 1.8 does not say there will be sin in eternity future. Why misuse this verse? While you hold the view there will be murder and hate and jealousy in the new city, this is not the view of Christians.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21.8).

Obviously, these have no part in the new city because there is no sin in the new city.

By saying in your scheme that you exist in the approximity to eternity of the past because of your belief in an eternity of the past of gods creating gods is not to say that you have existed on earth for an eternity, for the earth is only a few billion years old. Rather, what is said is that if you are derived from the eternity of the past of gods creating gods then your existence would approximate from the eternity of the past having given you an eternity to be perfected without sin, but it would not take nearly so long since we see the exponential progression in the conscience of mankind in just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years. Know that mormonism is just another way of rejecting God as there are many ways.

I am going to have to give you another infraction for constantly asking for the proof of God being uncreated and that the Savior is uncreated to whom must be received to be saved. Having given you the proof over and over, the same way every time virtually and you refuse to respond to this evidence of the Scriptures and the verses given, what else can I more reasonably do?

Those who do His commandments (Rev. 22.14) are those who are saved. There is nothing in the Bible about a god creating God, so Rev. 20.3 says place no gods before God. Moronical mormonism comes along 1800 years later and wants to give God a creator. Satan is working hard. Silly and sad! Also, don't quote one verse that doesn't mention the uncreatedness of God to be the reason why you reject God being uncreated. Even if one singular verse does not say God is uncreated or created should be no reason for you to come to the conclusion God is uncreated. After all Christians have never believed such a thing nor have we ever had reason to believe this. Certainly just because Joseph Smith comes along and demands it is not worthy of consideration. He is going to hell because he places a god before God.

The Bible says we will no longer shed a tear for the unsaved such as you and Jesus spoke on hell more than anyone else, so when a Christian does the same, you blame us and call it without love. Know that these are real consequences and we share them with you because we don't want you to go to hell, even though you are clinging to hell tooth and nail.

You may call God your Father, but He is not your Father, because you place a god before God of the Bible. This is why you are going to hell. No other reason. Your sin of separation from God is shown with these words: "Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church [mormon cult], once said As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." But the Bible says place no gods before God. You place man as an idol because you say God was a man. The Bible never says that man will become God. Only God is uncreated. Man will never be uncreated; that is why God and the Lamb are at the center of the new city, while the resurrected-saved are the pillars of the new city.

To be "like God" (1 John 3.2) is not to say you will be uncreated, for obviously you exist and did not create yourself. God however, always was and was never created. To have His uncreated life means to have eternal life and His divine nature, but still it does not mean you always existed.

There are not limited verses which indicated that God is created; rather, there is NO verse indicating God is created. There are only verses that say God is uncreated for there are no gods before God (Ex. 20.3).

To be kings and priests means to reign and to be holy. In the millennial reign of Christ (Rev. 20) the overcomer believers who return with Christ will both reign and be holy. It does not say anything about God being created, but speaks of rewards for overcomer believers.

You are not a Christian because you say "that God (not Jesus) has a Father". Know unequivocally no Christian would ever say this. So there are only two possibilities. Every Christian that has ever lived is unsaved and only mormons are saved. Or almost all mormons are unsaved and all Christians are saved.

The Scriptures we have discussed certainly show a distinction of God's 3 Persons, but there is nothing warranted to indicated overstepping that by saying different beings of polytheism. There is not an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. Let go of this idol of mormonism.

Baptism and church authority was not lost after the apostles. The next generation of apostles had authority, continued to appoint elders of a locality and baptized by the Holy Spirit. Do you see how mindless your selfish self-declarations are? Hence, accurately we may call mormons morons. Christians would feel embarrassed to make the claims you make, because it is so far askew from reality, but your conscience does not convict you because it is dead to God. Since you are wrong on this and your conclusion that you are right about this is that God is different individuals, then according to your mindless reasoning, then God is not different individuals but one being. Crazy stuff!

Could there be others that have the belief in polytheism besides mormons? Yes. Many eastern cults believe in polytheism, so it is not solely mormons. Even eastern cults don't call God of the Bible gods like you do, but they admit their faith is not the same of God of the Bible. This shows that mormonism is even more evil and especially moronical. This characteristic is of mormons not just you. You are just one moron in mormonism of many morons. May you appreciate this so you can come to Christ. How truly sad it would be if existence hinged on being a mormon moron worshiping created beings instead of the uncreated creator that has no gods before Him.

Rev. 22.4, "...his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face." Preceding this was God and the Lamb, but then this verse treats them as One being with One face. Rev. 14.1 shows the distinction of the Father and the Son in which the Son and the Father are both in third heaven since this sion is the one in heaven, not on earth. Many reasons can be given why this is so. These firstfruits first raptured are those closest to Christ for keeping their virginity. There will be no procreation in the new city, though there still will be outside the new city on the new earth. Rev. 14 is within 12 to 19 giving the details of 6 to 11.

The book of Revelation is proven to be not symbolic at all, for a symbol is unexplained, but of the 30 symbols, half of them are explained right in the text itself. The other half are very simple to interpret from the rest of Scripture. That leaves less than one symbol per chapter in the book of Revelation. Hence, the book of Revelation is very literal (read section 6).

Usually what happens is a person who is confused by information will relegate it as too symbolic as an excuse to not accept it. In reality though, the book of Revelation is one of the easiest books of the Bible to understand and Rev. 1.3 states a very specific blessing which no other book of the Bible opens with if these words are kept and preserved in your heart. That you consider the book of Revelation so symbolic shows me you don't know it. The tree of life is a real tree that produces real fruit to the nations that live outside the new city. Though there is no sin the body can still be weak so it needs renewal from the tree of life which bears fruit monthly. Those separated from God allegorize inordinately that which is plainly literal.

Your cult of mormonism and you teach the 1000 years (Rev. 20.2-7) is happening now, but this millennial peace is not happening now for verse 3 says the nations will not be deceived. Obviously, they are still deceived for they still war. Your sin is to make this time now of Pol pot, Hitler and Stalin a millennial peace. Your conscience is dead to God.

The obedience to Christ is receiving Him as He truly is and since you demand He be created, this shows you have not received Him, for nowhere does the Word say He is created, but that He is God and existed in the eternity of the past with God the Father and the Spirit in the Trinity; therefore, He is uncreated and there are no gods before God. You can't be obedient to God only the devil of your cult of mormonism.

Matt. 24.4 The disciples have just asked about the destruction of the temple. This is a matter which deeply arrests their attention. In answering them, the Lord first warns them to be careful lest they be misled. For anyone studying prophecy, the preeminent safeguard which Jesus pronounces here is to “take heed that no man lead you astray”; yet how sad that many believers fall into errors because they do not pay attention to prophecy: “We have the word of prophecy . . . as unto a lamp shining in a dark place” (2 Peter 1.19). Not to be led astray exhibits that kind of spiritual discernment which will not take yea for nay, or nay for yea.

Remember, the apostles were both the Jewish remnant of the day and Christians. I have already said this several times which you continue to overlook.

vv.5-6 By whom will they be in danger of being led astray? (1) By false Christs. In his Wars of the Jews, the renowned Jewish historian Josephus recorded how false Christs and false prophets deceived the Jews by promising them miraculous deliverance. These false Christs were able to deceive the Jews because they had refused to believe in the real Christ. (2) By wars and rumors of wars. After the death of Christ, rumors of wars did spread abroad like wildfire.

“See that ye be not troubled: . . . the end is not yet”—The disciples asked when the temple would be destroyed, and the Lord answers with two signs: false Christs and wars. But do not mistake these phenomena as signifying the end. When these two signs are fulfilled, it only means that the holy temple shall thence be destroyed. And hence, do not be troubled by such signs, since all these phenomena must indeed come to pass—but the end is still not yet.

This is pertaining to Israel for it is what must happen to Israel, and Israel was destroyed AD 70. Recall all the reasons how vv.4-31 give so many Jewish references whereas v.32ff does not for it is moral in nature. The apostles are Christians so naturally they are warned against false Christs, but so too are the Jews warned, since the disciples are Jews too, not to receive another Christ than their Messiah who is Christ.

Matt. 24.9 agrees that is towards the Jews.

v.9 Here begins the real tribulation. Verses 9-13 form a small section which deals with persecution.

“You” here refers to the Jewish disciples. Jewish believers in Europe and other continents: they keep the commandments and the Sabbath, and also believe in the Lord Jesus as their Messiah. The “you” here are also the prophets mentioned in Matthew 23.34. These prophets and wise men will be persecuted, even killed (see James 5.6). Both Mark and Luke record this in greater detail. These Jews will be delivered up to synagogues and councils, but the Holy Spirit will guide them as to what to say and will speak through them. Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 all speak of Jewish believers who are similar to the disciples sent “to the house of Israel” (see Matthew 10.6). But Luke 22.35-38 refers to the sending of the disciples to the Gentiles, for the dispensation of salvation had by that time already begun, and therefore those who were to go out now needed to take purse and wallet. Hence there is similarity between the prophecy here on the Mount of Olives and what is recorded in Matthew 10.5-6.

Then, too, let us compare: (1) Matthew 23.34 with Matthew 10.17-18; (2) Luke 21.14-15 with Matthew 10.19-20; (3) Matthew 24.9-10 and Luke 21.16-17 with Matthew 10.21-22; and (4) Matthew 24.13 with Matthew 10.22. The above all speak of the Jewish believers. The words “synagogues” and “councils” and so forth show a Jewish colour. Since “all the nations” denote the unbelieving Gentile world, the “you” must refer to Jewish believers. According to Isaiah 49.9-10 the Jews will in the future be very zealous for the Lord in preaching the gospel. At the opening of the fifth seal in Revelation when the souls who were slain ask for vengeance, they are comforted by the Lord in His bidding them to rest for a little time until the number of all who are slain be fulfilled. These brethren mentioned in Revelation 6.11 who will be slain include Jewish believers spoken of here in Matthew 24.9.

So we see much to do with the Jewish believers in Matt. 24.4-31, not referring to the Gentile believers. There shall be these Jewish believers in the time of Jacob's trouble pronouncing the gospel of God's salvation. They proclaim God's judgment. They know it is Jacob's trouble. For more examples of the Jewish color, read as follows. There is more than ample evidence this is so. How you treat the little brother will bear upon you.

Your biggest problem is every time something is shown to you and its evidence, you mindlessly shut your mind down to it and do not deal with this information. This is a case of my casting pearls before the swine since you are locked into a cult come hell or high water. That is your choice.

The burden of the proof remains you. Shall I keep repeating the same proof that you refuse to respond to? No. The burden of the proof is on you. The link is given only now for there is no need for me to keep posting the proof that you belligerently shut your mind down to. I do consider this a rude way to be and it is offensive to any opportunity for discussion.

All Christians have the same credentials-we accept there are no gods before God, so God is uncreated. You don't believe this because you are not a Christian and don't want to be. I accept this fact about you. The typical characteristic of a mormon is to profess by self-declaration God is created without reason or support and there it stands so that God will cast you into hell. This is not love that you would choose this course. It is the course of willingly and unabashedly being a moron mormon. Just know you don't have to remain this way. Arrogant pride is the culprit, which is self-righteous and without the humility of Christ. Sincerely ask yourself right now, of the 40,000+ adherents in the world, how mormonism can be true, for it is really no different than the polytheism of so many other cults and atheists? There is a peace in knowing God is uncreated and there are no gods before God.

Matt. 24.9-13 speaks of the Jewish believers and what will happen to Israel: "hated of all nations for my name's sake" (v.9).

Which nation? Of all the nations it will be Israel. These are not mutually exclusive events. This event includes those who have not necessarily professed Christ but God deems to be believers, for remember God is saving a remnant of Israel to be the center of all nations. At this point believers have not even been called Christians yet; not till Antioch where they were first called.

My advice to you is not to rely on Joseph Smith and all those who live that same lie, but let the Word of God teach you. Smith self-declared rather than rely on the evidence of the Scriptures, and he imparted communication from evil spirits since he worshiped an uncreated idol. You know what just popped into my mind? Did you see the movie the Matrix? Joseph Smith reminded me of Agent Smith. He too lived by what he was compelled to do by self-declaring himself and wanting to place gods before God.

The reason you have no need to prove your self-proclamations is because in your spirit is the nature of the evil spirit to self-declare things without ample evidence by overassuming, the very method used to reject God and worship as do atheists an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. The Holy Spirit has never entered your spirit to give you God's life. Which god of these gods do you worship really in the eternity of the gods of the past? Pick any old one you want according to your selfish desires and interests. Ultimately it would be Satan.

[Churchwork]

Summary

evan, you believe God is gods and they were created and have no faith to believe eternal life is eternal at new birth. Because you think God is gods, your god is impersonal different beings. You believe in polytheism. You believe the millennial peace is now with Hitler. You also agree with many atheists who believe in an eternity of the past of gods creating gods or causes creating causes with no beginning of the uncreated God who existed in the eternity of the past. Satan is your guide masked in moronical mormonism. You have called Christianity a lie for 1800+ years. You do Satan's bidding, surely you do! You believe sin will never go away as does Satan. Surely this may be the case where you are going which is hell. Because mormons don't have eternal life, they admit they can lose this false salvation they have. That is actually a good thing. Good thing the salvation of mormonism is not eternal, for then there would be no way you could truly be saved.

Contrast that with Christians who have received the uncreated Jesus as Savior, believe God is uncreated and the Trinity is 3 Persons, One Being and has no gods before God. We believe the 1000 years is yet to come and is a reward to overcomer believers such as Paul. Not all believers receive this reward. Christians believe there is no sin in the new city or new earth with God and the Lamb at the center. Christians can never lose eternal life because it is eternal. We have a personal relationship with the personal Triune Being. The corporate Christ is the body of Christ which is to say we are the members of the body of Christ and Christ is our head. We do not become God or gods. We have God's life and God's nature, but we are not God or gods. This takes humility to accept.

Conclusion: at least 99% of mormons are unsaved for they ought to know better, because they are made in the image of God also with a spirit of God-consciousness, and so by accepting mormonism they reject Christ.

I think it is really important to concentrate on this information:

Before the Lord are two classes of people: (1) the rejected Jews, and (2) a nation that can bear fruits (21.43). In this connection, therefore, the disciples may represent (a) the Jewish remnant, and (b) the called out ones. Accordingly, we have a combination of the Jews and the church. It is highly important for us to find out which section relates to the Jews and which relates to the church. In our view (and in the view of others too, such as D. M. Panton who felt that 24.31 is a distinctive line of demarcation), 24.1-31 pertains to the Jews, while 24.32-25.46 pertains to the church. This division is based on internal as well as external evidences, as follows.

A. 24.1-31 concerns the Jews, since everything here is literally interpreted; but 24.32-25.46 concerns the church since everything there is spiritually interpreted. For example, “winter” in verse 20 is literal since it is in actual fact a difficult thing to flee in the winter (“sabbath” too is literal); “summer” in verse 32, however, is to be spiritually interpreted since it points to the soon coming of the kingdom (while the “fig tree” refers to the nation of Israel). Or as another example, in verse 26 “the inner chambers” must be interpreted literally, whereas in verse 43 “the house” is to be interpreted spiritually. Hence what concerns the Jews is to be literally interpreted; but what concerns the church is to be spiritually interpreted (see Matt. 13.11-13).

B. The part before 24.31 is full of Jewish background, as is made clear by the usage of such terms as “the holy place” (v.15), “in Judea” (v.16), and “sabbath” (v.20); but the part after 24.31 is plainly without any localized restriction in its terminology.

C. The things mentioned before 24.31 are physical in nature, whereas all those things mentioned afterwards are moral in character. For instance, the nations, the mothers with children, and the children mentioned in the first part are all physical or literal in meaning; yet the virgins, the servants and the householder, and the goats and the sheep cited in chapter 25 have moral implications about them. In addition, “go . . . forth” in 24.26 and “went forth” in 25.1 are different in character, with the former being literal and the latter being moral in their implications.

D. Before 24.31 there is no moral demand included; what is required is to flee. But after 24.31 there are moral demands presented, such as watch, be ready, and so forth—which actions are the responsibilities of the saints at the end time.

E. Since the Jews are still expecting the Messiah, there are false Christs being mentioned before 24.31; but there is no word about false Christs after 24.31, because the latter part is addressed to the church.

To sum up, then, Matthew 24.4-31 speaks to the Jews; Matthew 24.32-25.30 speaks to the church; and Matthew 25.31-46 speaks to the church about the Gentiles.

The way the Holy Spirit has revealed God's treatment of the Jews and Christians is that there will be a Jewish remnant that will be transferred livingly into the kingdom. This is God's promise to the nation of Israel to be the center of all nations, not Utah, USA. At the end of this age (ion, not world) there will be those Jews who proclaim the gospel of the kingdom, their Messiah in the Messianic Kingdom. However, when they do enter the kingdom they need to believe individually in the Christ, if they have not yet done so. I have purposely made this grey because it is complicated between whom God saves in the nation of Israel, because on the one hand God has to save a remnant, but on the other hand Israel has not accepted Christ. Let us be in awe of how complicated God is about these things. There is the remnant disclosed in Rev. 7.1-8, telling us there will be at least 144,000 Israelis who are protected in the wilderness during Jacob's trouble. As Israel is made the center of all nations, not everyone in Israel is necessarily saved. There is the salvation of the Jews entering into the kingdom, but anyone who is not yet saved in the kingdom must believe individually in the Son of Man who will be reigning from the center of all nations in the millennium. There is a very delicate demarcation line between the Jew who is not in the body of Christ but is saved because he is professing the Messiah and the Jew who is in the body of Christ and professing the Messiah. I believe that many Jews will be saved even though they have not yet professed Christ to at least be transferred livingly into the millennial kingdom and may have been saved either before or after the millennium. In the same fashion, some person on a remote island somewhere may have never heard of Jesus or read the Word, but he could still be saved because he looks at the mountains and the stars to know God always was and He created, that there was no gods before Him, and he truly believes so that if the Bible were given to him, he would truly believe it.

[Churchwork]

evan,

Due to your infractions recently putting you into moderation, I realized that you are the type of person who will not stop self-declaring your mantra mindlessly, shutting your mind down to the evidence of the Christian uncreated God and God's commandment to put no gods before God. Because you are such a hard case and controlled by the god of mormonism, the Holy Spirit deemed it best to place you into permanent ban status and not temporary ban which you would have come out of from as infractions wear off. If you are willing to change and have a discussion with evidence, I would be happy to talk to you, but not until then, for nobody wants to listen to a clanging bell. Your pride is great and without a doubt, you are definitely bound for hell. If you do ever choose to contact me again, you would need evidence for why you think God is created and not rely on mindless self-declarations. However, I know no such evidence exists so you would just be spinning your wheels. May I hear of your salvation one day to receive the uncreated Jesus as Lord and Savior. The characteristic of a Christian is we do not assume more than what the Bible says. The 3 Persons of the Trinity are distinct, not separate. God is One Being (Father, Son, Spirit), not impersonal beings. He always existed and is the Only uncaused.

A useful source of help for you are sites that cater to ex-mormons who have become Christians. My heart goes out to you for I can sense the strife in your soul you must be going through, the reason why you contacted me. I have given you the best evidence that I have ever seen for why God of the Bible supersedes your god. Still you must choose.