The first rapture is seen at Rev. 7.9 which occurs before the Tribulation, 8ff. Think of chapters 12-19 as additional details on the major points of 6 to 11.

You asked, "What do you mean by the most spiritual tribes?" I already said, "Judah goes first" since it is the most spiritual tribe, even the one Christ was born from.

Your thought, "I would think that the tribe of Levi would be something like the second most spiritual tribe at least." Originally, yes, but they faltered, so given what their responsibility was, they did not keep what was given to them. Each of us is given a responsibility that we ought to live up to, and more is given to those with more gifts.

You had thought Josh 17.14, Rev 7.9, Lev 23.40-42 could help defend your view that rapture is after the Tribulation. But, Rev. 7.9 occurs before the trumpets of the Tribulation in chapter 8, and the festival of shelters typify in coming out of Egypt, after the passover, a deliverance from tribulation as in the coming Great Tribulation. The trumpets explain to us the full period of the Tribulation, loud and boisterous, for last seven in the consummation of this age.

You asked, "Why must the tribe of Judah mentioned in 7.5 be literal"? I gave you 10 reasons, and you did not find any legitimate fault with any of them (see below). "If Jesus calls Himself the tribe of Judah" - Jesus does not call Himself the tribe of Judah, but "the Lion of the tribe of Judah" (v.5).

Quote Originally Posted by Enoch
That is like saying how can something that is unified be divided? The number 12 fits a pattern of entirety.
Yes, 12 represents eternal perfection, but not the church. We never see the church divided into 12 ever, so it is not like saying something unified be divided, since the point is that there are not 12 parts or tribes to the church.

You asked why Israel in 7.4 is a nation? Because it says so, "tribes of the children of Israel." Israel has its 12 tribes.

God always treats 3 groups distinctly: Israel the nation, the Church and the other nations. This is necessary because God has still His covenant promise to fulfill for His chosen nation to be the center of all nations. The other nations will receive judgment in their position with regard to the Antichrist. And the church age ends with the new dispensation of the millennial kingdom at the appearance of Christ.

The order of rapture is with a firstfruits unto readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) to escape the hour of trial including the Christians who are to be closest Christ, those who keep their virginity (Rev. 14.1-5). Then the later harvest occurs of a rapture at the last trumpet, before the bowls of the 7th trumpet.

Rev. 15 & 16 give us the bowls of the last trumpet in their addition details supplied for us of chapter 11 when the last trumpet is blown. Think of it this way: Gen. 3 gives the details of Gen. 2. Similarly, Rev. 12-19 give the details of Rev. 6-11. Gen. 1 shows us eternity past and restoration of creation. Rev. 21 shows us eternity future and chapter 20 shows us the regeneration of the world (Matt. 19.28). This is consistency. I love that.

The seals received by them are not the same in Rev. 7 compared to 14. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church. God does not demand only one kind of seal, for there are also the 6 secretive seals of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 6). A Father's children are children, not servants to the Father.

You said "not their Fathers name," but Rev. 14.1 says, "having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

"Jesus but a regular angel they don’t call God their Father" - Not at all! Because Jesus is unique, "another angel" (Rev. 7.1), and Israel does not call God their Father anywhere in the book of Revelation, does not mean this unique angel is a regular angel. That reasoning does not follow. Christians pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit. Israel does not know this relationship for they have not accepted the Christ.

The old song sung in Rev. 7.4 is shown in phrase "I heard" and the chorus that follows of the tribes of earthly Israel. 7.10 is unto the raptured church as they sing, but earthly Israel is not raptured, but transferred livingly into the millennium.

"The term for they are virgins means that they did not play the harlot as Israel did in the past by following other gods" - This can't be true since no such interpretation is given. Israel still has not accepted Christ yet, so Israel is still under another god during the Tribulation. It is not until Christ's appearance in Person at the end of the Tribulation will a remnant be saved into the millennium as shall other nations.

An article is a word preceding a subject, so your idea "There is no article but the word Him" does not preclude articles such as "the" and "a". In 14.1 we read "with him a hundred and forty and four thousand" (ASV, RSV) which is to be read "a hundred" of an uncertain affinity according to the Greek, "hekaton" (KJV). The exact same principle is true of 7.4.

"I can agree to this because I see the 144000 in Chapt 14 being a key in the time line" - If you can agree then you ought to accept there is a first rapture prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion. Israel is not raptured, but only a portion of the Church is raptured before the Tribulation according to Matt. 24.40-41, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10.

What do you mean by best of the overcomers of the church?
Exactly that! There are firstfruits and harbingers in every sphere.

"Gune" used in context should be the consideration, comparing Acts 21.5, Rev. 17.3 and 14.4. Obviously, in 21.5 it is literally women or wives. 17.3 is certainly negative, but this woman is the RCC. In 14.4, it is not about the RCC, but virginity, since it is absolutely impossible that there will be only 144,000 Christians who neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines.

Matt. 19.10 Jesus' disciples then said to him, "Then it is better not to marry!"
11 "Not everyone can accept this statement," Jesus said. "Only those whom God helps. 12 Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made that way by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone who can, accept this statement."

Since Jesus is talking about virginity, this agrees. Again, we see, "the Lamb standing" (Rev. 14.1).

Judging by 14.1 here, those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7).

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Luke 20.35).

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that" (1 Cor. 7.7).

Why is it possible for 144000 to be celibate and not for 144000 to neither worship idols nor follow evil doctrines?
Surely, more than 144,000 Christians do not worship idols or follow evil doctrines. Therefore, the 144,000 in Rev. 14 are referring to virgins as Christ referred to.

You asked, where did John see them? "And I looked...144,000" (14.1) Christian virgin firstfruits were seen. John also saw earthly Israel, "I saw..." (7.1,2). John sees the earthly Israel remnant protected and hidden for 42 months (12.6).

Rev. 12:5-10 is represented as the first seal, the white horse. This verse is telling of the Jesus’ victory on the cross. I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27.
Rev. 12.5-10 does not refer to the first seal, since the first seal happened back on the cross almost 2000 years ago. There you see Christ sitting on the white horse with a bow that has shot an arrow giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross. The arrow intersected with the bow looks like a cross, and Jesus is the same Jesus on the while horse in Rev. 19 also.

Whereas the first seal is in conjunction with the Lamb that was slain in Rev. 5; then, after the major points of the past 20 centuries (Rev. 6) and the last week consummation of this age (Rev. 7-11), we find Rev. 12 expounds on the first part of the Tribulation (Rev. 12-19 give the details of 6-11).

12.5 Who is this “man child”? Some say it represents the children of Israel, but this is not possible due to the following reasons:

(1) The sun, moon and stars already represent the nation of Israel.

(2) This man child is caught up to the throne. The Bible never suggests that the nation of Israel will be raptured, for such a thought is in direct conflict with the prophecies concerning the nation of Israel.

(3) This man child trusts in the blood of the Lamb (12.11), but the nation of Israel does not. Some people have even advanced the theory that at the time of the Great Tribulation many of the children of Israel will believe in the Lord. Yet the Bible has not said this. What the Scriptures do say is that when the feet of the Lord Jesus shall touch the Mount of Olives God will open a fountain of salvation for the children of Israel, and then and there they will be saved (Zech. 13.1, 14.4, 12.10-14).

Some others advocate the interpretation of Christ being the man child, but this is also inapplicable for the following reasons:

(1) The woman represents Jerusalem, while the Lord Jesus is born in Bethlehem.

(2) This man child is not personal but corporate in character (12.10-11)-"accused them before our God day and night...they loved not their lives unto the death."

(3) Should this man child be Christ, the dragon will then be Herod, yet 12.9 states explicitly that the dragon is Satan himself.

(4) As soon as the man child is born, he is caught up to the throne, whereas the Lord Jesus is taken up to heaven only after He has lived over thirty years, died, and been raised from the dead.

(5) Because all this is a vision, the word “travail” cannot be interpreted literally.

Still others say that the man child denotes the whole church. This too is impossible since (1) the whole church is not all raptured at the same time: some will go in advance of others and some will follow afterward, but here the man child is caught up as a unit simultaneously; (2) to rule all the nations with an iron rod is not a promise given to the entire church, rather is it promised to the overcomers only (2.26-27), and not all in the church are overcomers; and (3) to reign is promised to those who suffer and endure with the Lord today (2 Tim. 2.12).

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father" (Rev. 2.26-27).

Who, then, is this man child? He must be the overcomers: for example, (1) some Christians in the church in Smyrna, since “Be thou faithful unto death” (2.10) coincides with the last clause in 12.11—“they loved not their life even unto death”; (2) some Christians in the church in Thyatira, for “he shall rule them with a rod of iron” (2.26,27) agrees with “a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (12.5); (3) some Christians in the church in Philadelphia, because they are kept out of “the hour of trial” (3.10) just as the man child is “caught up unto God” (12.5); and (4) some Christians in the church in Laodicea, since they will “sit” on the “throne” (3.21) just as the man child “is to rule all the nations” (12.5).

Accordingly, those represented by the man child are not the whole church but are the overcomers within the church. In our discussion of chapter 7 we also have eight points of similarity between the great multitude spoken of there and the man child mentioned here. Would you like to see them? For the man child represents a portion of that countless number. (Please note that chapter 7 deals with the general topic of rapture, whereas chapter 12 gives the details of some part of those raptured.)

Verse 5 “And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne”—In order to know the relationship between this man child and the woman, please read Galatians—”But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother” (4.26). Read also the last clause in the next verse: “For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” (v.27). The Jerusalem above is the New Jerusalem, which is the woman whom God has prepared to have in eternity to come.

She is none other than Eve in creation, the body of Christ in the dispensation of grace, this woman whom we see at the close of the dispensation of grace, and the New Jerusalem God will have in the eternity to come. A having many children does not suggest that the mother is separated from the children; rather does it mean that the one is divided into many, yet the many are combined into one. By adding up these many children you have the mother. It is not a case of a mother with five children making six, but a case of the five children making up the one mother. Each child is a part of the mother, who imparts a little of herself to each child. They seem as though they are begotten of her, yet actually they are but her own self. Thus the mother is not one who stands alongside her children but is the sum total of many children that are in view. This is a very special principle.

In chapter 12 the man child whom the woman delivers is subject to the same principle. This being a vision, it is symbolic in character. The word “delivered” here does not imply the idea of the child coming out and being separated from the woman, it instead implies that within the woman there is such a man child. In other words, a class of people is included in this woman. All the people of God are ordained to have a share in the eternal purpose and plan of God. Due to their failure in taking up responsibility, however, God chooses from among them a number of people. The people whom God has chosen from the many form the man child. The mother represents the whole, the man child represents the remnant.

This man child is the “brethren” mentioned in verse 10. He is not one person but is a considerable number of people—a composite of many; though in comparison with the mother, this man child is only a minority.

Nevertheless, in spite of their smallness in number as compared to the whole body, the plan and purpose of God is upon them.

“And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (v.5). Three times in the book of Revelation is this ruling with an iron rod mentioned. The first time is in 2.26,27: “And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron”—This most distinctly points to the overcomers in the church. The last time is in 19.15: “And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron”—This is in reference to the Lord Jesus.

Now then, to whom does this verse in 12.5 refer? If it is not applicable to the overcomers in the church it must have reference to the Lord Jesus.

Yet can it mean the Lord Jesus here? It is highly improbable (though not absolutely impossible, since later on we will observe that the Lord Jesus is also included). Why is it not probable? Because as soon as the man child is born he is caught up to the throne of God. It thus indicates that the man child cannot be Christ since the Lord Jesus when on the earth lived for over 33 years, died, and was raised from the dead before He ascended. Hence we believe this man child signifies the overcomers in the church. He represents a part of the church, that part which overcomes. Nonetheless, the man child also includes the Lord Jesus since He is the first overcomer and all other overcomers are included in Him.

12.6 “And the woman fled”—This is the same flight as is depicted in Matthew 24.6-20 and Luke 21.20-24. In 12.1 the woman is seen in heaven, but now in 12.6 she is in the wilderness. After the man child is born she loses her heavenly position. She is now none else but the Jerusalem on earth. A wilderness is a place both barren and uninhabited. God nourishes her as He did the children of Israel in the days of the Exodus.

In Galatians 4.21-31 we have a contrast: one is the heavenly Jerusalem, the other is the earthly Jerusalem; one represents the Christians, the other, the Jews; one is typified by Israel, the other, by Ishmael. The essential thought in all this is to prove that we Christians are free in the same way as Isaac was free.

The ordering of God's rapture and dealing with Israel is as follows: first Satan is in the process of falling from 2nd heaven (Rev. 12.4), but then, the man-child is first raptured (v. 5) who complete the removal with Michael to remove Satan from 2nd heaven (v.7). During this occasion, Israel goes through the wilderness for 42 months (after the first forty-two months) as Satan directs his attention on earthly Israel instead (v.6) as the Antichrist (9.1) breaks his promise and the second set of 42 months brings in the 3 woes.

Israel is not grafted back into the Olive Tree until Christ appears in person. You said the white horse represents Jesus, but the Bible says "he that sat on him" (Rev. 6.2) and "he that sat upon him" (19.11) is "faithful and true" (v.11).

The second seal follows the cross. The first horse (white) conquers by the bow, so it is battling at a distance. The red horse fights with the sword so it is battling in proximity. War is for the sake of war for destruction. This has been the nature of war these past 20 centuries by men wanting more power. The sword of the past 20 centuries has been the main vehicle of killing until recently.

"Rev. 12:11-17 is represented as the second seal" - No! While the second seal occurred in the past 20 centuries, Rev. 12 occurs with the first rapture of the manchild to commence the 7 year Tribulation at the end of this age.

12.10-12 “A GREAT VOICE”

12.10 Formerly God redeemed with the blood, but now He redeems with power. The authority of the kingdom of God is perfect at the throne; but before Satan is cast down, God’s will is not done in the air. After 1260 days the kingdom of God will come upon the earth, and then shall His will be done on earth also. (The casting out of demons recorded in Matthew 12.28 is a proof that the kingdom of God has come upon the earth.)

12.11 Three things are essential for overcoming the accuser: (1) The blood. (Since the accusations may not always be false, the blood is imperative for us.) We rest in the precious blood of the Lamb (Rom. 8.31-34). (2) The word of the testimony. Not only what the heart believes, but also what the mouth confesses concerning the same heart belief. As the word is spoken, Satan becomes helpless. (3) An attitude of not fearing death. The greatest of all temptations is death. If we maintain a right attitude, Satan is beaten.

12.12 In Revelation 13.1 a beast is mentioned as coming up out of the sea (Antichrist). In 13.11 it is recorded that a beast (the false prophet) comes up out of the earth. In 9.1 the Bible says that “a star” (the dragon) is fallen from heaven. When these three come upon the earth, there is “woe for the earth and the sea” as is stated here in verse 12.

The premonition of Satan (“knowing that he hath but a short time”) is comparable to the deduction that an historian might arrive at.
During the tribulation there is the wrath of God as well as the wrath of Satan.

12.13-17 “THE DRAGON . . . PERSECUTED THE WOMAN”

12.13 Many Old Testament prophets had made predictions concerning these events mentioned here and in the succeeding verses. During the time of the Great Tribulation the city of Jerusalem will be under the siege of nations. In persecuting the woman, the dragon is but carrying out his “great wrath” mentioned in the preceding verse.

12.14 Since the woman is symbolic, the wings must also be symbolic. God will give her a supernatural power to run fast. When God led the children of Israel out of Egypt He carried them as the eagle does its eaglets on its wings (Ex. 19.4; Deut. 32.11,12). The Jews at that time will receive special protection from God.

12.15 Since the “serpent” is Satan, the “water” mentioned here must mean something else too. By reading Jeremiah 46.7,8 we know that water signifies the rushing of enemy armies (cf. also Jer. 47.2,4; Is. 59.19). As the dragon casts water after the woman, so Satan will use the armies of the nations to pursue the children of Israel.

12.16 “Earth” is earth. In Exodus 15.10 we see that God uses water to overturn the Egyptian army; in Numbers 16.30 we read that He opens the earth to swallow up the rebellious; and now He uses the earth again in the same way to protect the chosen race.

12.17 The phrase “the rest of her seed” includes the faithful Jews and the Christians who are left behind. If these words refer only to the Jews it cannot be said of them that they “keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus”, since at this juncture the Lord has not yet returned to earth nor have the Jews believed in Him.

The word “saints” in 13.7 comprises in its meaning both the Jews and the Christians who are left behind. And hence they are the same people as is “the rest of the [woman’s] seed” spoken of in 12.17.

Ever since the first century there have been martyrs for Christ, so naturally the 2nd seal occurs immediately after the death of Christ on the cross in the first seal.You don't have to wait till the Tribulation for martyrs in Christ.

God accounts for the church age in Rev. 2 & 3 and the call to overcometh; gives us the picture of the universe from heaven in Rev. 4; retraces the cross in Rev. 5 and the first seal; goes over the atrocities of the past 20 centuries in Rev. 6; addresses the beginnings of remnant Israel (Rev. 7.1-8) and first rapture (Rev. 7.9) of the Saints; the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 8); the Great Tribulation (Rev. 9-11); details of the Tribulation (Rev. 12-19).

Conclusion: the 6 seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th seal opens up the 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. The 7th trumpet pours open the the 7 bowls of the end of the Tribulation.

Praise the Lord for this clarity!