Did Jesus Confirm a Covenant for 7 Years Split Up by Two 3 1/2 Year Periods?

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

In the prevailing view of Bible prophecy, the well known passage in Daniel chapter 9 concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel is commonly interpreted to put forth the proposition that the Antichrist will make a 7 year treaty with the Jewish people. But is this proposition actually accurate, and if it is not, what are the implications for the rather large cluster of prophetic interpretations that rest upon this idea of a treaty that will be broken "in the midst of the week?" (Daniel 9:27 KJV).

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You do realize Harold Camping was an amillennialist, held to your beliefs and agreed with your view that the prince in Dan. 9.27 was Jesus.

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

The last aspect of the prophecy elaborates on the destruction of the sanctuary and the abominations that are to occur. It even describes the reason for the devastation as the text tells us it is "...for the overspreading of abominations [that] he shall make it desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

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You said verse 27 "even describes the REASON for the devastation."

But verse 27 says, "upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate." Jesus is not returning to pour wrath upon Israel but to save Israel.

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

The Messiah arrives after the 2nd period of 434 years (62 weeks in the text). There is no reason to believe the unfolding of the timeline stops at that point. Thus, the Messiah arrives at the beginning of the 70th week and it commenced when He arrived. Remember, the focus of the prophecy is on the Messiah who must accomplish everything specified within the 70-week period.

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"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" (v.25). This verse does allow for the Messiah to minister during the 69th seven. It does not explicitly state that the Messiah begins His ministry after the 69th seven. But it does say, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself" (Dan. 9.26). If you were to take Jesus' ministry to begin after the 69th seven ended March 28, 33 AD (Gregorian) to immediately begin the 70th seven March 29, 33 AD this makes no sense, because obviously Jesus began His ministry 2 years before that.

The main reason for the separation of the 69th and 70th seven is because in God's infinite foreknowledge, He knew Israel would reject their Messiah, so His millennial reign could not begin as yet; hence, the Church age to receive the blessing beforehand. To seal this fact further, clearly Matthew 24 was not fulfilled during Jesus' first coming.

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

In the next verse, the prophecy provides us with the details of the cutting off of the Saviour. Again, the focal point of the entire prophecy is the Messiah, so after He arrives, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week...." (Daniel 9:27) This is precisely what would be expected as when He arrived, there would be "one week" left to the 70 weeks. The obvious question should be how can the Antichrist suddenly get inserted into this prophecy and "confirm" a covenant that has never been mentioned? Indeed, the Antichrist himself has never been mentioned in the entire text!

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A regression back to the cross seems unfitting after 70 AD passes with Dan. 9.26. Who is expecting confirming a covenant for 7 years? Even with 20/20 hindsight we can find no specific mentioning of any such thing. Surely something of such great importance should not be left to guessing.

Why does the Antichrist come next? Because it follows since "the people of the prince that shall come" (v.26) are of the same spirit as the Antichrist. Thus, "the prince that shall come" is the future Antichrist that shall come. Naturally what follows is the covenant he makes with Israel (v.27) as he still wants their annihilation as Hitler and Islam strived for, just as was foreshadowed in Dan. 11: "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate" (v.31). This will be the image of the beast in Rev. 13.14 set up by the 2nd beast, the False Prophet. "See the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matt. 24.15).

"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2.4).

The middle of the 2,520 days of the Tribulation is Rev. 9.1 when the 1260 days start mentioned several times, called the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist, the 1st beast, breaks the covenant (Dan. 9.27).

Revelation 8 are the first four trumpets of the 2,520 days that hurt the earth. What follows are the 3 woes or last 3 trumpets from Rev. 9 to 11 that hurt and kills people.

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

Furthermore, it's useful to recognize that the term covenant is not the same term as the word treaty. We separate the Bible into the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the word "testament" is interchangeable with the term covenant (see Hebrews 9:15). On the other hand, a treaty is a political instrument that is used between nations - not a sacred agreement between God and man.

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These are the various usages of "covenant" in the Bible. See the Blue Letter Bible.

1) covenant, alliance, pledge

a) between men

1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man)
2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)
3) agreement, pledge (man to man)
4) alliance (of friendship)
5) alliance (of marriage)

b) between God and man

1) alliance (of friendship)
2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)

2) (phrases)

a) covenant making
b) covenant keeping
c) covenant violation

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

In the Old Testament, God made an agreement with man that if the people will adhere to His "covenant," He will protect and keep them and be their God. This is articulated in Exodus with the children of Israel where God says "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people...." (Exodus 19:5). In the very passage in question in Daniel, which is prophetic on its face, God further promises that He will bring the Messiah who will confirm the covenant that He has already made.

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Jesus confirmed a covenant by being cut off (Dan. 9.26). The Antichrist tries to confirm a covenant as well only to break it (Dan. 11.31). He puts a twist on it always to copy Jesus in some ways to make it seem acceptable. "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

The twist on the truth that has come to dominate the prophetic expectations of so many millions will reap a bitter harvest. As vast numbers of Christians are deceived on this subject, their lives and actions are predicated on a false understanding of the immediate future - and the fruit of it will be dreadful. Very few understand the enormous spiritual ramifications of embracing significant error in our prophetic perspective. Indeed, it was the fact that Israel did not recognize the time of their visitation from God that brought the nation of Israel to "the overspreading of abominations" that were the natural outgrowth of their refusal to recognize Jesus as their promised Messiah.

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The irony from your words is that a very small percentage of those who claim to be Christians believe what you accuse them of. Most are preterists, amillennialists, postmillennialists and other historicists like Harold Camping was. We are talking more than 1.5 billion souls agree with your position. Is this a "little flock" (Luke 12.32)? If you are going to appeal to the masses argument you yourself ought not to violate it, otherwise you carry a doublestandard.

"And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate" (Dan. 9.27).

Does Jesus sit "upon the wing of abominations"? I know this characterizes the Antichrist.

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Originally Posted by lawrenceb

The very fact that most "believers" will simply discard this pointed exegesis testifies that it is the organized churches that have perpetrated the great fraud that Christendom finds herself entangled in. And because of their lazy refusal to study the truth of the scriptures on a personal level - instead relying upon the false doctrines of their hireling shepherds - we will shortly see the big surprise in which so many that thought they were saved will be turned away. The scriptures will not be broken, and they tell us it is "for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience." (Colossians 3:6)

-- Brother James

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I read very very carefully every nook and cranny of what you said, responding accordingly, and when I review my responses with what you said, my position is strengthened even further. Whom you call Jesus I see as the Antichrist.

I don't consider you my brother in Christ but one unsaved soul, because I know there is so much more heresy that goes with your teaching.

Re: Warped Warriors @ talkjesus.com

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Originally Posted by Warped Warriors

I also have seen this interpretation in my studies of the past. I too can see how this interpretation appears to match. However, I do not promote this interpretation. The interpretation I promote is "the prince that shall come" is the Antichrist and that he will confirm a 7 year peace treaty (which he will break after 3 1/2 years) with the Jews to allow them to build their 3rd Temple on the Temple Mount next to the Dome of the Rock.

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It takes 2300 days for the Temple to be cleansed (Dan. 8.14) so the Temple would need to be completed by the 220th day of the Tribulation. And since construction of the temple will take more than 220 days, it would need to begin before the peace treaty. Therefore, I must respectfully disagree with your view that it is the Antichrist or the treaty of 7 years that allows the Jews to build the Temple, since they begin construction on it before then even before we know who the Antichrist is.

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I never understood why there is a long gap between the 69th and 70th week.

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I've always known the reason to be that the 70th seven was delayed because Israel rejected their Messiah, so God produced the Church to receive the blessing beforehand for these past 2000 years. Consequently, Israel will only reclaim her former glory (Dan. 9.24) once this final seven begins on Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 and runs for 2,520 days to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022 when Jesus steps down on the mount of olives; then from the 1260th day (the last day) of the Great Tribulation (the latter half of the Tribulation) to the 1335th day which is 75 days more, Israel will be set up as the center of all nations Oct. 21, 2022 after Tabernacles is done.

People make so many mistakes in prophecy it boggles the mind, but when you start from the foundation the truth builds from there.

Re: JRFifty @ talkjesus.com

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Originally Posted by JRFifty

I think Brother James said it best.

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I think my responses said it best.

There was simply no 7 years spoken of at the time when Jesus ministered and paid the ransom on the cross, nor can we find any in retrospect.

And the 69th seven and 70th seven can't overlap which they would for we know when Jesus died 4 days after the 69th seven ended.

Even if you wanted to get creative and say the 70th seven started the day after the 69th seven Jesus would have died the 4th day into the 70th seven which would not be in the midst of the 70th week.

Jesus ministered from 2 to 3 years, not 3 1/2 years using the "techie method."

And all the other years when Jesus allegedly died were not on Fridays, but would the women wait 3 or 4 days to put spices on Jesus' body? What love is that?

We can be confident Jesus will return at the end of the 70th seven to destroy the Antichrist who will reign in the 3rd Temple (2 Thess. 2.4) that will not be damaged (Rev. 11.2) during the Great Tribulation.

Since you don't anticipate the Antichrist coming when he comes you will call him Jesus.