Aliens Don't Exist and If They Did, It's Irrelevant

You misread the Bible. Gen. 1.1 God created perfectly. It doesn't say how long it took. The universe is only 13.7 billion years old, not trillions. And it was 6000 years ago when God created the first God-conscious man when He breathed in the breath of life directly creating man's spirit which when made contact with the body man became a living soul. We know aliens don't exist because no life can exist on another planet. There are over 800 variables required for life to exist on another planet. There is not enough planets in the universe to make that possible.

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Originally Posted by Parture

You misread the Bible. Gen. 1.1 God created perfectly. It doesn't say how long it took. The universe is only 13.7 billion years old, not trillions. And it was 6000 years ago when God created the first God-conscious man when He breathed in the breath of life directly creating man's spirit which when made contact with the body man became a living soul. We know aliens don't exist because no life can exist on another planet. There are over 800 variables required for life to exist on another planet. There is not enough planets in the universe to make that possible.

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What? That's insane! There's not enough planets! HELLO! Has anyone seen the Hubble Deep Field Photograph. In ONE LITTLE SPEC of the night sky that's not even VISIBLE TO US, there's over 10000 galaxies which each hold between 200-400 million stars, each holding around 2-40 planets each solar system, AND THAT'S JUST ONE SPEC OF SKY which means there's probably over 300 trillian galaxies, multiply that by 300 million stars each, multiply that by 5 to UNDERESTIMATE THE AMOUNT OF PLANETS and you have about.....1000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000 planets...and times that number by 30 billion....like.....not enough planets? Not enough planets? There's WAY too many planets. People should be SCARED by the amount of planets out there because that means the chances of life, even being REALLLLLY rare means that the universe is probably PACKED with life.

Earth is an anthill next to a 10 lane super-highway people! Now for those of you who think I mean there's an actual highway out there, I'm being metaphorical to prove a point to you to give you perspective on your life.

You think god can only share his love with planet earth? You think planet earth is the only one that can love god?

The religious people of this world have to prepare themselves for the very real possibility that they may come in contact with extraterrestrials that are much more intelligent than us and that are much more spiritually evolved than us. This means that when they come out of the sky they may appear as angels to us because of their spiritual growth so far beyond ours, but they will not be angels they will be extraterrestrials coming to share that same love of god with us that we share with them.

Same goes for all religions, god created all the religions. All the religions have truth in them. But not all followers are true! But the core of every religion in this world shares in one thing: The love of God/creator force of this universal existence and the hope to better themselves through avoiding the negative and embracing the positive.

Do not get caught up in simple miscalculations of each others religions and allow that to divide humanity. A muslim mother and child deserve gods love just as much as us, and she has gods love through muhammads teachings of christ, and the quran.

Do not try to find disagreements with Bhuddism, Quran, Hinduism, or Judaism. Because the core religion teaches the same core love that christianity teaches, it's just the followers that can be mislead. Just like there are christian followers that can be mislead.

How can we live in harmony? First we need to know we are all madly in love with the same God. - St. Thomas Aquinas

I love each and every one of you, Jesus loves you, muhammad loves you, bhudda loves you, God loves you. God bless us all.

If we come in contact with extraterrestrials, don't worry, or feel that the meaning of the bible has been lost, the bible will always be important even after extraterrestrials come down to this earth because 7 sins, 7 heavenly virtues, 10 commandments, those are all REALLY GOOD POINTS that EVERYONE should read and feel better knowing them than NOT knowing them.

God's love flourishes on this planet and TRILLIONS OF OTHERS. God's creation is beautiful.

wootwoot,

I removed your account because in your profile you said you are an Apostle for the Church which obviously you are not since you believe in salvation by works and you are a universalist. You're going to Hell.

You're not doing your homework. I just said when you divide those 800 variables into the number of known planets, there is not enough planets for life to exist on another planet. Study the work done by Hugh Ross.

God has no purpose for life on more than one planet. One planet is more than enough to find a people who love Him to spend eternity with. More than one planet is vanity! God considers it evil to create a paradigm that could potentially involve wars between humans and aliens which would most certainly occur. We are not guilty for the sins of beings from another planet. We are guilty for our own sins right here on earth. In the same way, multi verses are pointless endeavors also. Watch the tv series The Fringe to see what I mean.

God didn't create any religion except the faith of ancient Israelites and Christianity, for it is the only true religion. All these other religions you favor eternally separate themselves from God because they will for eternity reject the love of God giving His only begotten Son, who Himself is God (2nd Person of the Trinity) to die on the cross for the sins of the world.

Jesus said the world would be divided because of the hostility of people like yourself who misrepresent Him in your contradictory ecumenicalism. A Muslim woman who accepts the teachings of Muhammad is going to Hell, for she has accepted the lie that Jesus never died on the cross. She knows better in her own conscience that Islam is false, just by observing its fruit if nothing else. She could be saved by accepting the God of the mountains and stars then surely if she was presented the Son would accept Him too for the Father and the Son are One Being.

The core teachings in all these faiths are false and diabolically opposite to Christianity. In Christianity God died on the cross for the sins of the world to save whosoever is willing to believe in Him to receive eternal life and not go to Hell.

Buddhism is Atheism and teaches shutting your mind down like a zombie in Nirvana. God doesn't want you to do that. He wants you to solve problems and embrace your senses. And Atheism teaches there is no God. The Quran is false because it teaches Jesus never died on the cross, thus didn't die for the sins of the world. Hinduism is false because the population would be far greater than it is if it were true, and its god is amoral. How can God have morals below our own? And obviously you are not coming back as a chicken if you are a bad human. That never effectively deals with sin. And of course Judaism is false because to reject the Messiah is deserving of eternal damnation.

All of these religions are works based faiths too in which they claim a person can lose salvation. Whereas in Christianity a person who is born-again, receiving eternal life, can never lose salvation, for the Bible says we "shall never perish" (John 10.28). It takes quite the arrogant mind to think you can bridge the gap between you and God by your own strength.

The Great Tribulation is coming in which the people of the world will almost destroy themselves, but Jesus says He returns for the sake of the elect then follows the regeneration of the world (Matt. 19.28). The elect would be people like me who are born-again who have God's uncreated life.

Muhammad doesn't love you, he was a murderous tyrant and lies about Jesus. Buddha doesn't love you, he's just a fat pig who hated God. But Jesus does love you, for not only did He create you, He provided a way of salvation for you through His precious blood for forgiveness of sins and reconciliation back to God.

I can't comment on what St. Thomas Aquinas said whether he was talking about just Christians who are already saved or if he was talking about something else.

The Bible says we are not saved by works lest anyone should boast, so your "saving 7 sins, 7 heavenly virtues, 10 commandments" theory will most certainly fail you, as you create a law unto yourself you don't even keep. If you try to live by the law even a law you create unto yourself, you will die by that law and eternally separate yourself from the love of God and God Himself. Your 7-7-10 theory reminds me of Wayne Dyer's Ten Dumbmandments.

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Originally Posted by Churchwork

You're not doing your homework. I just said when you divide those 800 variables into the number of known planets, there is not enough planets for life to exist on another planet. Study the work done by Hugh Ross.

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Actually, we've found almost 800 extra-solar planets in the relatively short time we've been able to look for them, and it's estimated that our galaxy contains at least 160 billion planets which orbit stars. Of those we've discovered, a significant percentage of planets and moons are within the habitable zones of their stars. Is Ross taking into account the updated data astronomers now have concerning extra-solar planets, particularly from the Kepler probe?




Lurker

800 variables have been found so far requiring life to exist on another planet. There are not enough planets in the universe to meet that probability.

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Originally Posted by Churchwork

800 variables have been found so far requiring life to exist on another planet. There are not enough planets in the universe to meet that probability.

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Do you know where I could go to read more about these 800 variables? Thanks.




Lurker

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Originally Posted by Itinerant Lurker

Do you know where I could go to read more about these 800 variables? Thanks.

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Yes, in the books by Hugh Ross such as The Creator and the Cosmos and other books he has written. I got this information from him. People are unaware of how many factors there are that go into requiring life to be able to exist on a planet. They just assume because there are so many planets surely the odds are in their favor. But when you examine that, indeed, there are so many variables involved (even more we haven't thought of) you realize life can't originate on another planet. And it's quite elegant to think of it that way too, because it serves no purpose. God's glory is manifested on this one planet making man in His image to save and choose out a people for Himself to spend eternity with (the rest go with you to Hell). Life on another planet is actually vain, serves no purpose and totally unnecessary.

So I got the chance to try and run down your claims about Hugh Ross’ “800 variables for life”. I don’t have the book, but the only online references I could find were simply more second-hand references to it which, given the tendency for creationists to make up stuff like this, left me a bit dubious.

Fortuitously, I am quite familiar with Ross’ website, “Reasons to Believe”, from my days as an OEC. It turns out that your claim of 800 variables is, at best, very outdated (it was ostensibly “sourced” in a book from 1995, after all). Ross has a few articles on what he sees as the fine tuning of life on earth from 2001 and 2004 which detail not 800 but 154 parameters for life (Fine Tuning for Life on Earth), and which assign probabilities to some of them (Probabilities for Life on Earth).

There are a few very good reasons to think that Ross is grossly exagerrating what would be required for life to arise, not the least of which include that he doesn’t appear to explain his basis for assigning probabilities to his parameters, and that he seems to ignore that many of his parameters are interdependent or just downright unnecessary. (I can provide some examples of this if you'd like - just let me know).

I guess what I’d like to know is what is it about Ross’ apparently flawed claims that you find more compelling than the claims of other scientists? Is it really the strength of his evidence, or is it simply because it confirms your pre-existing beliefs? If the former, what specific evidence do you find particularly compelling (and why didn’t you simply present it when I, on multiple occasions, politely asked?); if the latter, shouldn’t that be the basis for some pretty drastic self-examination of your motives?

As always, I appreciate your taking to the time to reply.




Lurker

The number of variables has increased from under 100 to over 800. When you divide through the number of estimated planets in the universe, it's impossible for life to exist on another planet. Ross and others have done their analysis. What they have in common is there is not enough planets in the universe for life to exist on another planet. So does this agree with or disagree with God's glory? I believe God's glory is manifestly greater in creating this entire universe for life to exist on just one planet as it would be redundantly unnecessary otherwise, and His precision work would have to be even more precise for life to exist on just one planet. That's my God the God of the Bible.

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Originally Posted by Churchwork

Aliens Don't Exist and If They Did, It's Irrelevant

FACT #1: Based on our fastest capable speeds it would take 70,000 years to reach the nearest solar system. Even if we went at a fraction of that speed and collided with a small rock on the way the ship would be utterly destroyed. And the probability of life in any one solar system is so astronomically remote, the nearest system would not be merely 70,000 years away but at best billions of years away and more likely trillions of years away. So even if life did exist on another planet, it's irrelevant. Stick with your Bible.

FACT #2: Even if an alien race existed they would still need a cause as well, and on and on, but infinite regress is impossible, because if there was an eternity of the past of cause and effects, we would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. Moreover, we would not have existed, because an eternity would still be going on before it could every reach this point. Infinite regress is not only proven false on both accounts but inherently contradictory.

FACT #3: There have not been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe for life to exist on another planet. Science doesn't know what life is and can't explain how life arose from the chaos of an explosion that sterilized the entire cosmos a trillion times over. "Natural selection" is no help. It can neither create life nor assist the first living thing to start functioning. The first living cell would have had to come about by pure chance. But this is mathematically impossible--and there is no arguing with mathematics.

There are approximately 10^80 atoms in the cosmos. Assuming 10^12 interatomic interactions per second per atom, and 10^18 seconds (30 billion years) as twice the evolutionists' age of the universe, we get 10^110 (80 +12+18) as the total number of possible interatomic interactions in 30 billion years.

If each interatomic interaction produced a unique molecule, then no more than 10^110 unique molecules could have ever existed in the universe. About 1,000 protein molecules composed of amino acids are needed for the most primitive form of life. To find a proper sequence of 200 amino acids for a relatively short protein molecule has been calculated to require "about 10^130 trials. This is a hundred billion billion times the total number of molecules ever to exist in the history of the cosmos! No random process could ever result in even one such protein structure, much less the full set of roughly 1000 needed in the simplest form of life.

"It is therefore sheer irrationality...to believe that random chemical interactions could ever [form] a viable set of functional proteins out of the truly staggering number of candidate possibilities. In the face of such stunningly unfavourable odds, how could any scientist with any sense of honesty appeal to chance interactions as the explanation for the complexity we see in living systems? To do so with conscious awareness of these numbers, in my opinion, represents a serious breach of scientific integrity" (John R. Baumgardener, Theoretical Division of Los Alamos National Laboratory. See pp. 224-25).

Donald Page, an eminent cosmologist, calculated the odds of the universe existing 10(10^1240). Remember, the simplest physical structure upon which natural selection might operate must happen by chance--and it can't.

When anyone says that an eye, for example, couldn't happen by chance, Dawkins responds in an offended tone, "Well, of course an eye couldn't happen by chance! Natural selection is the very opposite of chance!" But Dawkins doesn't mention that natural selection is impossible without some living thing that can replicate itself.

FACT #4: The Pseudepigrapha and Apocrypha books were excluded from the Bible. One of the reasons is they taught about aliens (automatically making them false). God says there are no aliens. He says there are: a) angels, and b) men on earth. That's it! When you really think about it, why would God need to create more than that? There is One Son of God who will be the center of the New City (Rev. 21), not many Sons of God in a bunch of New Cities across the universe. There is only One Uncreated Creator for one New City. The Bible says His sons and daughters (elect men and women) are the pillars of the New City not aliens. Judgment upon man does not need to be done by an alien race attacking earth or freakish hybridization (sorry Tom Cruise, you lose). God is not an unjust or unrighteous God!

Contradiction: Those who believe in aliens claim aliens came to earth long ago but today they are no longer here which contradicts all the alleged alien sitings and abductions in our modern day, so I guess they think the evidence from thousands of years ago is better evidence than all the hoopla today.

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Okay, first thing's first, I am an atheist who believes only in science, not some invisible supreme being in the sky watching humanity kill each other. So my arguments will be one-sided and biased. That said, I am open-minded and if somebody offers me scientific proof (a book written by a crazy Jew with a colorful imagination does not count) that something like god existed, I'm always open to ideas. Also, I don't mind if people believe in god, just that they keep it to themselves and not forcefully press people into believing in their own ideas like they've always done.
Also, for someone who, surprisingly, understands science, these are awfully arrogant and hollow arguments...
Now, onto rebuttals...

"FACT" #1: You are assuming that we will forever be bound to our current infantile rocket technologies and our speed of travel will always be the same, however, technology, unlike religion, progresses with incredible pace. As we develop faster ways of propulsion, we will definitely develop shielding mechanisms to prevent ships from being torn apart by dust particles. The chances of life on other planets is really unknown, because we haven't even found that many exoplanets, the search has just started and the technology is very primitive, we are only able to find giant gas giants because of their size, which doesn't allow for life (as we know it). So what if it's millions of light years away? We will eventually get there. And STICK TO YOUR BIBLE? really? are you kidding me? Humans have "stuck to the bible" since some conman wrote it a few thousand years ago. Look at how far that got us! NOWHERE! Now when the industrial revolution kicked off, A.K.A. when religion lost its hold and people stopped getting burned at a stake for not believing in god, that got us much further than the thousands of years of religion combined.

"FACT" #2: Your arguments here is based on the idea that everything in the bible is true. It's not. So why do you think that aliens will need some form of belief, some form of faith to survive? Religion is something that humans invented to pretend they could explain everything they don't know, maybe the aliens we find will decide that they should focus on actually WORKING on knowing the things they don't know instead of coming up with some bollocks explanation to try to explain something.

"FACT' #3: Science CREATES life, HUMANS define life. A single-celled organism (give that same organism a few billion years it develops into intelligent sentient lifeforms) on an alien world is life, but you may not accept it. There are MANY MANY MANY galaxies MUCH older than ours, if our young galaxy has life (and a lot more than one kind), why can't the trillions of others? . Life is created by evolution, molecules of different acids, random chemical reactions, and our position in our solar system and galaxy with the right planets to help us evolve and be here to believe in god. Our position is in no way unique, there are trillions of planets like ours in the milky way, in the Goldilocks zone, in the right position, and with enough molecules for life. As for your math, it's wrong. There are MORE than 10^80 atoms in the OBSERVABLE universe, meaning our 13 billion light year bubble, which is most definitely NOT the entire universe, and this is not an accurate estimate, since the light from just-forming galaxies are only reaching us now, we have no idea how huge these galaxies have gotten, not to mention the neutron stars, black holes, and other anomalies that contain much more material able to create life. The only reason we exist is because we are here, thinking about why we exist and if we are alone, and not pure chance, because if we didn't exist due to pure chance, we would not be musing about why we exist, make sense? The math is UNKNOWN, because we really don't know enough about, life, space, and the universe to know how big or small the chances are. your "math" is based on pure untrue assumptions. Also, for argument's sake, why would we assume that aliens need water, sunlight, or even solid land to survive? Aliens could theoretically evolve from nitrogen, hydrogen, in the air, in space, or any place you may think of. In that case, life is very NOT uncommon in the universe, it would be just as usual as people on Earth, or animals in the forest. But of course this is not life "as we know it"

"FACT" #4: The bible is always right...sure, makes legit logical sense. IF THE BIBLE SAYS ALIENS DON'T EXIST, ALIENS MUST NOT EXIST! pure awesomeness of logic...The passages excluded from the bible were probably the only things that were true. And why can't god, this all-powerful being, create life on some other planets? and go look after THEM instead of looking at our failure of a planet? If god knew everything, why would he create this Earth that's not flat, full of homosexuals, murder, rape, crime, war, destruction, global warming etc. etc.? Universe? Galaxy? well apparently he didn't know much about what he created, unless you are crazy enough to say that the universe doesn't exist and god wanted to punish us for whatever? an alien race really wouldn't find a reason to attack and judge us, which is ironic since it's what we might actually do to other aliens when we have sufficient technology to do so.

"Contradiction": The claims of aliens visiting Earth are generally regarded as bollocks, because it's most likely not real. The first sightings may have been real, but all the copycats that follow aren't. However, just because aliens didn't take a stop to visit our stupid and primitive race, doesn't mean that aliens don't exist. Just because of some conman deciding it would be funny to record some flying saucers on tape doesn't ruin the possibility of other life in the universe.