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Originally Posted by
rewq
In short, logic is simply a form of reasoning, while evidence is irrefutable proof. One's reasoning can be completely flawless yet be completely wrong.
That's illogical. Flawless reasoning can't be wrong. That's just doubletalk. Satan is the author of confusion. You are confusing absolutes with probabilities. We are dealing with probabilities when it comes to evidence, not absolutes. You go with the preponderance of evidence which is you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the resurrection of Jesus nor find something in nature that happens all by itself.
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Like I said, your logic, your reasoning, here is fine, but other options do exist. How do you know that the universe was created by one god instead of, say, five gods?
Then accept it if the reasoning is good. If there is more than one god, you have to reasonably ask the question where do these other gods come from, since all we have proof for is one uncreated Creator, not multiple uncreated creators. How silly. You need evidence for your speculation.
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And when you say "uncreated creator", doesn't that contradict itself? You say nothing in nature can cause itself, but God Himself existed forever? I mean, what did God do for all those trillions of years before the Earth and all of life was created? Did he sit around and twiddle his thumbs?
There was no time before He created time, so the question is a false one about how long He was sitting around.
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I'm not trying to be annoying here, please acknowledge that. I'm simply trying to find out what I'm missing.
I am telling you what you are missing. Heed it.
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Yes, I do see the difference. If you are saying what I think you are saying than you mean to say that we first must find evidence before we believe, that God reveals himself before we believe. That is exactly what I tried to do. I tried to find evidence for God by looking at the laws of nature through an unbiased eye. I believe I have already mentioned this. I didn't find any evidence that I found to be valid. That's why I do not believe - lack of evidence.
I don't mean to say evidence is needed, but I said "Christians come by way of evidence, non-assuming." I actually meant what I said. Period! You said you once believed, but it was not based on evidence. I am telling you that that was false faith, because it had no evidence. Furthermore, you should be in Christ, because you can't overturn the evidence, both for the resurrection data and what God says, nature proves His existence, for nature can't cause itself. It's like you are playing the worst lottery game ever known to man in which there are trillions of things with causes, but you can't find one thing without a cause still hoping you will land on that lucky number so you don't have to go to Hell because you think if you find it, it disproves God. How mindless! You're killing my brain cells.
I'm glad that you do not think like that, I really am. However, if you take some time and watch the following videos, hateful messages like these really do exist.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Seq2rwKucE - This first one has a picture of Jesus giving the finger. This is not my video and in no way do I find the picture acceptable. I am presenting it for the audio portion only only.
So some non-Christian creates a picture of Jesus giving the finger and whether or not these emails are real, would Jesus act like that? No, of course not! Moreover, you seem to be ok when your atheist brethren act like that. Why the doublestandard? You see nothing you say adds up. It's all false.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfi4w...eature=related - This video is of Richard Dawkins checking his e-mail.
The atheist opinions of Christians presented in these videos do not reflect my own. I am only presenting them for the e-mails. I do not mean to be rude in any way.
Hold on a second. You are the one who initially claimed Christians act like this when you said, "I know several outspoken atheists who get messages like these in their e-mail inboxes all the time. I'm thankful that most Christians don't talk this way, but the fact that some of them do is a really big problem. No one should talk like that to another human no matter how different they are. It isn't right in any sense."
I don't know any Christians who speak like this, so you are just sinning bearing false witness. Moreover, since you don't know what a Christian is, how can you even accurately assess who is a Christian? Again, do you see how you are wrong? Don't be a dullard!
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Could you please define "honest heart"? Apparently we have separate definitions.
Truly and sincerely seeking the truth with all that you have been given to be able to do so.
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Am I to understand that a child's entrance into Christianity is a farce? Because they surely cannot understand the evidence for God that you have presented (when I say "child", I mean under five years old). When a baby is baptized, they, essentially, don't even know who God is. They can barely even understand the world around them, much less a benevolent, omnipotent, omnipresent being. What am I missing here?
A child's entrance into new birth is a face, for he must first attain the age of accountability. Hence, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox are wrong, among many others who falsely teach infant baptismal regeneration. God does not judge a soul who has not had a choice yet. What you are missing is a child will not be condemned to Hell, for he has not reached the age of accountability; or if he is, it would only be because God could foresee his whole life that he would never come to Christ. I don't discount the latter possibility for God's infinite foreknowledge.
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Before I cleared my mind of bias, yes, it was blind faith, I admit that. I thought it was my duty as a Christian to find evidence for God. I tried to remedy that situation.
I am glad you admit you were never born-again, because you came without evidence. That's a good first step.
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I didn't say that the phrase "Blind faith is an ironic gift to give back to the creator of human intelligence" was found in scripture. I came up with that by myself (maybe not in those exact words, but the meaning was essentially the same).
Yes, so therefore, that is just one more reason for you to see what you were entering into was something from self, not from God's Word.
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Now you have brought Satan into this mess. You must now prove that Satan exists as Christianity defines him. Yes, there is evil in the world, that much is certain, but you must now prove that it is caused by a malevolent fallen angel who is, in fact, frozen in the ninth circle of hell (if I reference the Divine Comedy).
You mean your mess you created for yourself. Since Jesus is proven to be God and He spoke on Satan and Hell more than anyone, that's your proof. Furthermore, the temptation in the Garden was not from man but from a spirit being, from Satan by the entrance of a demon into the serpent to manifest that temptation. Just as Satan tried to tempt Jesus. Was Jesus tempting Himself? Of course not.
The Bible is not a Divine Comedy. It is the explanation of all things. No circles of Hell. Do you see how Satan always in all things tries to make a mockery of God?
Remember: All things are summed up in Christ. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, and nothing was made was made without Him. He existed before the foundations of the world, before all creation in the Trinity as the 2nd Person of the Godhead with God the Father and God the Spirit.
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(I answered this already so I won't go into it again)
And I responded to your point about Leprechauns already to show your idea is false, so do respond in kind if you want to be sincerely honest with yourself.
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I don't consider it to be the perfect proof for God. I have explained that.
What matters is you can't disprove it, so it remains a perfect proof for God. Shutting your mind down doesn't count.
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If there is a Hell, and I do end up going there, I won't get past the first circle (if I may refer to the Divine Comedy again). Basically, I'll be there with Socrates, Plato, George Carlin, and many others. I honestly can't imagine that that is a bad place.
Since the Divine Comedy is not true, you are living in a fantasy. Nothing is worse than Hell. It is an eternal separation from God with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Dalmer, rapists, criminals and murderers, etc. You'll be in good company.
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Do you think it better to assume who I am, what my characteristics are, or is it better to actually get to know me and know for certain? I can say with full honesty that I am a relatively moral person. I'm not perfect, I do make mistakes, but I am, at the very least, presentable.
Getting to know you is not going to change the fact you are going to Hell for rejecting the only means of salvation through Christ. Salvation is not by works, lest any many should boast. Since no man is an exception, neither are you. You're a sinner in need of salvation, but your mind is so darkened it doesn't appreciate that and frankly, doesn't care. You're a bad guy. One little sin eternally separates you from God. Only the perfect ransom can bring you back to God. But you are too afraid to let go of self and place your trust in Jesus. What a disturbing space for you to be in. I was once unsaved like you so I know what you are going through. It can be very scary to give up the control of yourself you have had for so long, but once you give it up, WOW! I only wish you could have the joy and peace that I have in the Lord.
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I have already explained my viewpoint on that argument.
I already responded to your viewpoint. Do respond in kind if you want to be honest with yourself.
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In the first chapter of this, it says that men and women are tripartite. How do we know for certain that the spirit (described what I can only perceive as the life force that God supposedly gave us) and the soul (the immortal part of us) actually exist? We know beyond reasonable doubt that the body exists. Why? We can perceive it and take measurements. I can see you, I can hear you, I can touch you, and just in case I'm still not absolutely certain, I can smell you and taste you (this is silly, I know, but I'm trying to prove a point. We can discuss the morality of smelling and tasting people in a different argument). I can also take measurements of the body. I can see how tall you are, how much you weigh, and what your BMI is. I can do CT scans of your brain to see if it is working properly (again, I am just trying to prove a point, I do not mean to hint that you are psycologically unsound), I can take your body teperature, and your blood pressure. The list goes on and on.
The spirit is the immortal part too, not just the soul; you will receive a resurrected body when you go to Hell. You know you have this inner sense in you of your spirit which is God-consciousness. It is given to everyone to know, for we are all made in God's image. Through the millennia almost every nation has worshipped what they deem to be God. This inner sense is backed with the logical and evidential proofs of nature given and proof of Jesus' resurrection. Likewise, your body is known because it is tactility perceived. Your soul is known by the functions of your mind, will and emotion. Your spirit is sensed by its intuition, communion and conscience. Your soul has self-consciousness.
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The spirit and soul, as far as I can tell, could never be measured in such an accurate way. If you find a way, or if there is anything that I am missing, let me know.
You don't need to measure your spirit and soul bodily, for your body is measured by its senses, while your spirit is measured spiritually and your soul is measured soulically. Each part of your being require different measurements. It is enough for you to know you have an innerman of your spirit with your outerman of soul and body. Hence, the Bible calls your body a "soulical body", for your soul exists because of the coming together of your spirit and body. You are a soulical being with a spirit and body. You are not spirit being like the angels. You are not a spirit. You are soul who should live and walk by the spirit and carry it out through the body. These are very precise words I am using.
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I will admit that I have only gotten as far as the first chapter, I have been busy as of late, and will continue to read more as time permits. in the meantime I would like to watch the videos I have presented to you. They will take up very little of your time.
Try not to read too fast. Make sure you understand each paragraph before moving onto the next. Let it all sink in, and you will be born-again after you read the first 5 chapters.