Helping Lead the Old Calvinist James Wilbur to Christ
Re: James Wilbur or Jim Wilbur
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/member.php?1186-Jim-Wilbur
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Originally Posted by
jameswilbur
I believed,saw, understood my sin and repented of it, had remorse for it when God opened my mind to the truth. I worship God, which comes about through belief in Jesus Christ our Reemer and Savior, that is the only basis for salvation.
You're a very old man James. Know you don't have much time left to give your life to the right Jesus.
Yet it was alleged to be irresistibly imposed on you to come out of an alleged Total depravity and denied to others to have this irresistibly imposed salvation. How can that be true repentance then since it is forced upon you and there was nothing you could do to resist entrance into the faith of Calvinism? That's not how Christians I know and in the Bible are saved. And so, 1.You refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated by erecting an idol called Total depravity which says you can't so you won't.
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Whether or not I have come to some conclusion in the Word of God, which may or may not be correct is decided by the Spirit who is judge of all things. He has promised to guide me to all truth, I believe it, have faith in God to do just that in me, as I am a believer in His Son, I am a son of God.
Many people say the Spirit guides then and say Lord, Lord; but the Lord says on that day, He never knew them, as they could not get Scripture to agree with them on salvation for God only saves one way. Hence, 2.You worship a god who sends people to Hell from birth without any opportunity to be saved and they could do nothing about it. What love is this? You worship a god who does not provide sufficient grace to all or is unable (impotent) to. Isn't this what Hitler did to the Jews?
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I worship a God who chose graciously to reach down and pluck me out of this perverse generation and saved me to eternal life in Jesus Christ. It is you who are railing your fist at God not I. No it is not what Hitler did.Hitler was a son of the devil, God is who He says He is, even if I don't understand at times why He does what He does. I am thankful to Him, and I will understand all things with I see the Lord face to face.
You don't believe Hitler irresistibly condemned the Jews to the gas chambers and imposed his kind of salvation on the Aryan race, so as to deny the comparison of Calvinism and Aryanism? That sounds like the president of Iran denying the Holocaust happened. How is irresistibly forcing you into something, calling that a gift, gracious? Christians do not know this as love but tyrannical. No man can pluck us who are saved out of His hand, but God doesn't pluck us like fish out of an ocean. How evil that would be! Jacob Arminius was an OSASer, that is, he said, he never once taught a person who was born-again could lose salvation. This is 5 point OSAS Arminian: giving your life to God who keeps, preserves, when we know we can't keep ourselves. Whereas in Calvinism you have to 'persevere' for it because it was never your choice. You haven't shown how the god of Calvinism is different than the god of Hitler. Hitler knew he would see his lord face to face, and doesn't understand why he was chosen to irresistible save the Aryan race, nor do the Aryan race understand why they were chosen above all people to be saved just like Calvinists. How could they deep down really be sure they were saved because it was never their choice by the grace of God as so much doubt ensues, not knowing the way. Ergo, 3.You worship an evil tyrant that must irresistibly impose its kind of regeneration on people without giving them the choice (not much of a gift) to genuinely and sincerely enter into a relationship. Isn't this what Hitler did to his Aryan race? I'd hate to be in your family household at any time of the season.
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The Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth, if you are one of His, you are at the moment ignorant of the knowledge of God, as to who Jesus Christ really is, what He has truly done, and what He has done, for, in and through you for His glory and not our own.
The question is not whether God will guide us into all truth for those of us who are saved, but whether God is loving enough to provide sufficient grace to all give us the choice through common and/or special grace of the gospel rather than having to be an impotent tyrant who must like Hitler irresistibly impose salvation on some, denying this imposition on others. Of course, if this is evil for men to behave this way, it is evil for God. A contradiction is a contradiction. We are not in 10,000 years going to find out this was not a contradiction after all. There is no such thing as a square circle or married bachelor. The law of non-contradiction never changes. It is a violation of God's law. Calvinism is a violation of the law of God. The Bible says be 'not doubletongued' (1 Tim. 3.8) so don't be a doubletalker. When you find yourself contradicting yourself as shown here, then stand up for the truth despite your bad habits you have developed and how this makes you feel, but give into reality. I believe this by the word of God such contradictions are wrong, so why don't you? Consequently, 4.Your god contradicts himself with his two wills you claim secretly doesn't want all to be saved but openly says he does. If something is a secret then by definition you can't make any claim about it or if it even exists. The truth be told: God wishes that none should perish, so He does provide sufficient grace to all and does not enact preterition. If all God had to do was provide a person one more ounce of grace to convince him to come to the cross, He would do so. Your god doesn't. And therein lies the difference in the power and transcendence, righteous and holiness of God of the Bible that your god does not have.
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Again you fail to understand the Word of God. The unbeliever is not given any kind of hope at all, for they in their lost state, until God decides to quicken them to the truth, or not. The gosple is seen, heard and understood by those whom God has chosen, 'many are called, (but many will not and cannot understand, so it means nothing to them, hope aor otherwise) few are chosen.' These are Jesus Words.
How evil that would be for God to force some into believing irregardless of their choice and to pass over others, for God wants none to perish, thus He provides sufficient grace to all that any may be quickened with new life, whosoever is willing. God transcends the god of Calvinism by infinity, for the god of Calvinism is unable to do this or is unwilling. Either way, not God. Jesus brings to the world the Good News which is full of hope, love, peace, long-suffering and forgiveness whosoever is willing to receive His saving grace. A false hope is presented to the Calvinism reprobate for certainly some will take the word of the gospel as true as it is delivered to billions and billions. This is an abusive relationship to be so cruel. What secret hidden cultic teaching is this? Jesus never said He forces Himself on someone, but He said in John 3.16 He died for the sins of the whole world that whosoever is willing may receive His love and mercy. Thank God, God is not like someone with a hook grabbing one of two lads carelessly playing in a whirlpool. But God is like someone who extends a stick out to both lads while they are carelessly playing in the whirlpool or quicksand and says to them if they don't grab on they will die. And so, 5. It's wrong to give people false hope to deliver the gospel to them when your god made them unable to respond. There is no way around this duplicity and charade. Let us pray for the Calvinists for they know not what they are doing and have not come to God with an honest heart so God does not know them; instead they choose to believe in a corrupted facsimile and simulation of God's salvation.
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We do not deliver the gospel to the lost, but to those whom God chose before the foundation of the world to be in Christ...He choses, we do not...cannot...We preach to all because we do not know who He has chosen...some will not hear...
Sounds like a contradiction for you said you 'do not deliver the gospel to the lost' yet you 'preach to all'!? Which is it, do you deliver the gospel to all or not? Can you feel your head spinning? I see your headiness and it is definitely spinning out of control straight to hell. You admit you have not chosen Christ: 'we do not...cannot'. Thus, you really can't know if you are saved or not, because it is not your choice to receive God's saving grace. That's why you 'persevere' so hard to work for it because you really don't know if you are born-again. Whereas true Christians know we are saved because God gave us the choice and we so chose. God chose us by foreknowing our free-choice. He does the saving. He chose us: looking back upon our new birth we can see we were chosen before the foundations of the world in His infinite foreknowledge, provision and providence. The issue is not whether YOU preach to all because YOU know or don't know who is to be saved. You've missed the point. Take your eyes off of yourself for the moment. The question is, Would a loving God deliver a gospel to people whom He would not give the grace to be able to have the choice to respond? That is called sadism, to prod for someone to do something yet they are not given the means to be able to respond Your god is extending a 30 foot rope to a young child who is 40 feet down a well, and telling her to grab hold of it while blaming her and saying to her abusively, what's wrong with you? Aren't you tall enough, smart enough, old enough, good enough? There are some sick people out there, and they are called Calvinists. That leads to the sixth sin of Calvinism. 6.The god of Calvinism could save all, but doesn't, whereas God of the Bible doesn't save all because most people, with their own volition refuse His love. Case and point: Calvinists. Let's call this the 6 MAJOR SINS OF CALVINISM. A selfish salvation!
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I personally have not been selected for Hell, as you said, for I am in Christ Jesus, selected before the foundation of the world to be in Him. Because you cannot know, because God only knows the heart, the spirit of a person.
You have revealed your heart, for you admit you did not repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, but selfishly assumed you were regenerated (called 'stacking the deck') without prior having had to repent and believe in Him to THEN be regenerated. So afraid to give up control of self, even in salvation you assume your salvation! How sad for you. Many people say, Lord, Lord, and the Lord says on that day, He never knew you. Why? Because you don't want to be saved His way, and it is perfectly easy to see, because you exalt yourself in a false salvation that turns people off whom you claim were not given this coercive degeneration. A non-Christian is perfectly justified in saying the god of Calvinism is evil and he does not want to be a Christian on that basis, so he turns away from Christianity by the misrepresentation of the gospel by Calvinists. But God is so loving and gracious, He will show that person the true gospel despite the misrepresentation by TULIPers. Praise the Lord. Amen!
Calvinists do Understand Calvinism and Want It!
Calvinists do understand Calvinism and therein lies the problem: they want to be that way selfishly in a selfish salvation in which they did not have to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated; but merely just assumed they were without prior having had to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. The Bible says there are some people we are not to pray for. Perhaps they are those of 2 Pet. 2.21 who came so close or near to God but still reject Him, never receiving new birth in the first place. 'For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.' So much grace given and yet still deny our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Look at this doublestandard. It is ok for a Calvinist to say there are those who are going to Hell and there was nothing they could do about, since from birth they were never intended by God to be given any grace whatsoever to even have the choice. But it is not ok for Christians to say this is what is going to happen to Calvinists. Of course Christians don't say this about Calvinists as Calvinists claim about Christians and others, for we know God has given even Calvinists sufficient grace to have the choice, the opportunity to be saved by grace to be able to obtain the free gifts of repentance and faith unto regeneration; except sadly, they want to be saved another way through the power of the new age proposition if I THINK IT AND ASSUME IT, IT SHALL BE.
We know God wants a real relationship, not a forced one.
Helping Jim Wilbur from CARM
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Originally Posted by Jim Wilbur
Selfishly man refuses to believe in God because his sinful dead nature that is unredeemed, is dead to all things of God. Total depravity is the condition where you can know nothing about the truth of God unless God does something to you. If God does not awaken you to the truth, then you won't
Clearly, you are a morally bankrupt since you deny you can help an old lady across the street and give your life to the Christ who provides sufficient grace to all (not wanting any to perish). The delusional idea you are Totally depraved is just an idol you have set up for yourself to refuse to give your life to Christ. Your evil god leaves you empty handed without the sufficient grace to be able to respond, but only assume on a pedestal pridefully you were irresistibly selected. The only way God can say we are "without excuse" is if He provides us all with sufficient grace to be able to obtain the gift of repentance and faith unto regeneration. Making up excuses you cannot respond positively is just lame.
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Such a God is Holy, Righteous and Just, whether we understand Him or not, because it is written that He is Loving, Holy, Righteous and Just. God sends people to hell because they are sinners. For thay have not been placed in Christ Jesus. It is His process, His right over creation and not ours, especially since we walk around in flawed, sinful, corrupt fleshly minds.
Such a God is Holy, Righteous and Just by sending a person to Hell just because they were born that way? That's demonic, when God could easily have provided us all sufficient grace to have the choice. It's the faith of gnosticism of an evil god creating. "For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men" (Tit. 2.11). According to your faith your god sends people to Hell not because they are sinners, but due to the predecessor cause of them being born into sin since you admit your god is unwilling provide them sufficient grace to able to freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith unto regeneration.
Satan's process is not God's process; God does not leave a person to drown without extending help, mercy, grace, and allowing that one to have the choice if they want to be pulled out of the quicksand they are enjoying themselves in. Despite you walking around sinful, you can yet one day repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, for God has supplied you with ample grace. Don't deny Him.
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Rightly we trust God to do that which is righteous and just, we do not presume to tell God otherwise. We know what we know from Scripture and stand on the Word of God for that truth, whether we understand why He does what He does. All men are not saved because all men have not received Jesus Christ as Savior, bottom line. Your understanding of the word 'all' shows you do not see the process of God's Sovereign salvation of those chosen to be in Christ Jesus, being choosen from the many, the remnant of manking. You are seeing with emotion and fleshly reason instead of the truth of the Word.
Surely you are presuming to tell God what to do since you demand of God He send people to Hell just because they are born into sin and only save you, or others like you, who assumed pridefully you were irresistibly selected. Could anything be more pompous? You're desire to change the word "all" is because you don't want to be saved under God's process and sovereign will. God chooses because He foresees our free choice, not because he is an evil tyrant who irresistibly imposes salvation. God forbid! What love is that? You are neither thinking with healthy emotion, a renewed mind and will, or a regenerated spirit. The fleshly reason for thinking God sends people to Hell just because they were born into sin and you were irresistibly selected is so selfishly you don't have to GENUINELY repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Only Hell can satisfy your heart.
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We give no one false hope, if they hope to be saved by God, then they will be saved by God, for they would not have hope unless God has placed it in them. Those who are not going to be saved do not hope in any god or God. Not so, God is totally loving and kind to those who are in Christ Jesus, God hates those who are not going to be saved in Jesus because those people are lost in sin. Psalm 5: 5
Sure you give people false hope since your religion tells its followers to deliver its gospel to everyone including the unregenerate who will never receive nor ever could accept Christ because they were disallowed to have the genuine choice. A person can hope they will be saved but that will never save a person. If a person is hoping he will be saved he never will be, because a person who is saved is already an accomplished fact having died on the cross with Christ. They don't hope to be saved, since it assured in them, once-saved-always-saved. Satan can place false hope in people. God loves every soul made in His image, not wanting any to perish, so He doesn't leave a person born into sin without any grace to have any opportunity to be saved and have the choice. That's sick. You're sick. How foolish of you (Ps. 5.5).
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Nothing is more unselfish, I myself have been changed within to the point I care for others more than myself, and I am ever being transformed in my innermost being, to being conformed in the image of the Son of God. I see in my own life God working out His plan for me. We are who we are because of who God is who lives in us.
Nothing is more selfish than claiming one is irresistibly made to be saved and others sent to Hell only because they were born into sin and their god was impotent to provide them enabling grace to have the choice. What love is that? People can speak as though they are selfless, but we can see the selfishness in them assuming they were irresistibly selected as they never did repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You admit that about yourself too, that you never did. I take you on your word. We whom are saved God works out His life in us, not because we were forced into it, but because He selected us for having received Him GENUINELY. Amen.
