Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

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02-05-2011, 07:30 PM
AlwaysLoved

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.

We have at least 14 papyri from the 2nd century and read we have at least 27 verses in 12 books of the New Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls carbon dated before 65 AD.
02-05-2011, 07:41 PM
AlwaysLoved

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodrow

So out of 12 Apostles and numerous disciples only 4 eye witness accounts were worthy of being kept, those of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. The 4 that seem to be reiterations of the same thing the same of which happened to have been written in Greek by Aramaic speaking Jews. the same of which not even the best Christian theologians can agree upon who the actual authors were. The same books that coincidentally have a very strong resemblance to the Greek and Roman mythology of the time.

Give up your life of blasphemy and the spreading of falsehoods. Read even one short Surah of the Glorious Qur'an:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

I am farily certain not all the disciples could read and write, and the Bible is a fairly big book already. 4 gospel accounts is more than enough. One emphasizes Jesus as king, another as servant, another as man and another as God. Most scholars can't think of anyone other than Matthew, Luke, Mark and John to write these texts. In fact, many clues regarding their employment indicating their writing style. For example Matthew writes regally. He was a tax collector, an accountant. Mark was simple and had a bout with Paul over Mark's fickleness. Luke was a very careful writer. He was a doctor. He also wrote Acts. And Jesus said John was the disciple whom He loved most. John emphasized Jesus' deity and love. There is no Greek mythology of someone walking among us, atoning for sins, who called Himself God and resurrected and gave the Holy Spirit to indwell believers. Truly unique.

At best Allah is just an idol. At worst, he is Satan.

Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (John 10.9).

You can't enter into another man unless that person is also fully God. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Praise the Lord!
02-05-2011, 07:54 PM
AlwaysLoved

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodrow

The day I gave up Christianity and my years of Missionary work did I finally find the true path to salvation. I have to pay a horrible price with my feelings of guilt over those I led to hellfire by converting them to Christianity. I once believed as you now do. I hope you escape before you suffer the guilt and pains of leading the innocent into the trap of Christianity.

Realize you were never actually born-again because the Bible teaches those who are saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). We whom are saved entered into a relationship with God promises to keep us. That gives us confidence and assuredness. You don't have this in your faith because it is a salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved.

You were a fake or nominal Christian, not real so you never really left Christianity to begin with because you never were a Christian. I once believed as you do now that salvation was not through Jesus, but by the grace of God, His mercy and love came over me. God says if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. I can never leave my life in Christ, but you can yet one day give your life to Christ because the Bible says no man has committed blaspheming of the Holy Spirit while Jesus is not on earth. Now that is gracious God!

God loves you. He would never ask you to believe in something some man in a cave all by himself said without any evidence after he rejected Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Don't give into Satan. Revisionist story telling will simply not due six centuries later.

God provides real proof. 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 books in complete agreement. He shows that most scholars agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation. Jesus really died on the cross which we have tonnes of evidence for, but no evidence otherwise or for your god just like we have no evidence for the Greek gods. They are just idols.

It is evil of you to ask people to believe blindly in your cult when you have no evidence and to lie about Jesus.
02-05-2011, 07:58 PM
AlwaysLoved

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodrow

You do know the dead sea scrolls were written by Essenes, not Christians and do support Islam more than they support Christianity. You have no books from the early sources you only have copies of books which the Vatican Library will allow you access to.

The Essenes were a Jewish cult. The Jews agree more with Islam than Christianity since you both reject Christ. The point is the Scriptures that were circulating shows at least 12 books of the New Testament were circulating before 65 AD.

All the New Testament is from the original sources. The Qu'ran was changed so many times it would make your head spin, even on major doctrinal points, but none of the major doctrinal points in the Bible have been changed. There is nothing in antiquity with surviving documents so closely to their events as is the case for the Bible.

More copies the better to preserve integrity and compare.
02-05-2011, 08:10 PM
AlwaysLoved

Quote:

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

You sure you do.. that is what you're selling.. and you're not doing a good pitch at the sale.. to be honest I'd not purchase from street vendors anyway.. if I weren't pressed for time and other interests I'd have more fun with you..

No we don't have to prove Jesus was resurrected to prove Islam is false. All we need to do to prove Islam is false is to show Jesus died on the cross because Islam says he didn't. I can sell you on Christ later, but right now it is enough to prove Islam is false because all the evidence we have is for Jesus dying on the cross, and no evidience to the contrary, so don't believe some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later. God would never ask you to believe blindly like that out of his hostility because he rejected Jesus for his salvation.

Quote:

Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.

Since all the books of the New Testament were completed before 65 AD except for John in 95 AD, who cares about all these other books or even what the Constantine church compiled. It makes no difference because the early texts were already established as primary sources and the first churches were being set up based on the death and resurrection of Jesus.
02-05-2011, 08:15 PM
AlwaysLoved

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrion

Lol, dude... Learn a bit about the religion before you come here and try to convert people. You're just making yourself look like a fool...

Oh, and you really shouldn't expect us to sit back and let you spew this nonsense... Most Muslims are fairly familiar with Christianity and it's texts, as well as being familiar with their own history and texts, so they can very easily take apart whatever you have to say... You, however, don't seem to have even a basic knowledge of Islam, so... Good luck.

I am a fool for Christ. I am a fool for evidence. Since there is no evidence in the first two centuries that Jesus didn't die on the cross but lots of evidence for his crucifixion, realize you are a living lie.

It is sad to hear those who claim they are familiar with the text, and thus the evidence, yet still remain unsaved, bound for hell for calling the disciples deceived and Jesus a liar when he said countless times in various ways He was God and would prove it by His resurrection.

The disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, for which you can find a no naturalistic explanation. This is God's proof of Himself.

There is really only one thing you need to know about Islam to know it is wrong. If it says Jesus didn't die on the cross you know Muhammad was a liar or demonically possessed.

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