Corporate Church

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12-03-2005, 10:41 PM
Pax

Corporate Church

Hello,

I am new here. I have to admit that I don't understand and agree with everything that this site has to say, but I know that there is a lot of truth in what you say. I am not perfect, I have a lot to learn, so I desire to learn.

The church has become Corporate Church. It is a Corporation, a company. Through the Societies Act in Canada, churches have charitable status. If they, in the basic sense, do what the governent tells them, they keep their charitable status. They don't have to pay taxes and they can issue tax receipts.

However I have seen this as a stumbling block. People are afraid to move past the constitution of the church (a constitution is neccessary to be incorporated as a charitable organization). The constitution calls for congregational rule of the church. In other words, there is a "board of directors". A chairman, treasuer, secretary, directors, etc. People seem to be held up by the fact that if they moved past this system to the beautiful one set up in Acts, the simple, the true church commisioned by the Holy Spirit. It is as if money has a hold on them. If they could move past the whole money issue, and push on through to deeper truth and fellowship, focus more on the word of God and on the person of Christ, they would experience a much deeper fellowship with other believers and with Christ.

Yet they are held up by this stupid societies act. The Government of Canada doesn't have a huge amount of control, it is subtle. But sutle control is still control. And it is control if it takes precidence over the person of Jesus and His will for His Church.

I don't agree with denominationalism. God did not create denominations, these divisions are the works of man. I had to think to understand your "Biblocality" idea. I don't understand the need for the buzz word, but essentially that is the truth. I never thought of it from the perspective that the only divisions in the time of the Apostles was location. And that is true.

The world is a mess. And the church is in the world. The world is also, unfortunately, infecting the church. Do you realize in order to become a pastor you have to go through the same amount of schooling as you would if you wished to become a priest? Protestants spend so much time bashing Catholics, without realizing that the very things that they disagree and argue with Catholics about they are becoming.

Am I right on all these things? This is my convicton at the moment. I am a sinner of sinners, and I am human. So there is no doubt that I can err and be decieved. How do you know if you are decieved when you are decieved? You are decieved! So for anyone to say they have the corner on truth is to lie. No one knows all truth except for the Truth, Christ Jesus, my Saviour.
12-03-2005, 11:56 PM
Churchwork

Pax,

As I was reading along what came to mind was elections. Our government elected is no better than the people that elect them. In the same way, these corporate structures as the church subsist on people electing them by funding them. I believe this problem will remain until Christ returns in Person to destroy it. While these problems are going on, the true church structure will reemerge as it once was in the first century. When it reaches its pinnacle, Christ returns.

The buzz word is to get people to think about it. Biblocality = Biblical locality. It is wonderful to hear your acceptance of the only means by which the church is divided. Realize, the problem is, no one ever thinks in these terms. They are always trying to figure out how to usurp their particular denomination or some other way, but not the Biblical way of the local churches: informal apostles choose elders to take care of the entire locality. How simple, just as it is found in the Scriptures! This is called Biblocality. I wonder if I am the first person in the world to use this term? It is interesting how intuitively sometimes things just come to us. I was studying deeply vol. 1 & 2 of Church and the Work, by Watchman Nee, along with the Bible, when it just came to me. Those things given to us by the Holy Spirit will come seemingly out of nowhere and so effortlessly.

What you describe about schooling for pastors is called the "pastoral system", and it is like you said, just an offshoot of the Roman Catholic system in its formal training and expense. Though we hold nothing against anyone that goes through such schooling, it by no means is a requirement, and whenever it is made to be, and it is the standard by which to judge, then it is just head knowledge and not one being led by the Holy Spirit. Apostles do not apply to an organization to be able to do the work of the Ministry. They just go out and do it. Teachers, prophets and evangelists are those who have these gifts, not because they have a diploma. Elders are working souls, just like you and I, and do not draw a salary for the work.

Your points are reasonable, except for one: you "don't understand and agree with everything that this site has to say". Can you be more specific?
12-04-2005, 03:00 PM
Nogreaterlove

And all the believers were together....

I agree that there can only be one real body of believers in any given area. But where are they? And how can such a theory, however biblical, be translated into reality?

All believers are to be one in heart and mind also, just as they were in Acts 4:37, and as Paul called for in 1 Cor. 1:10, when he pleaded that "there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement."

The real Messiah cannot be divided. If a body is a living body, division equals death...cut my body into pieces and the spirit departs from my body. Since what calls itself the "Body of Christ" is divided into 40,000 plus denominations, can it be a real body? Can it be the real Body of Christ, with His Spirit resident within it? I don't think so.

Apostles are those who have been given the grace to bring about the obedience of the faith among all nations for His name's sake (Rom. 1:5)

To me, it seems quite clear that such obedient faith would bring forth living bodies of believers, who would forsake all for the One who forsook all for them, to come into a life of being together, and loving each other with nothing held back, just as He loved, and being one as He and the Father are one.

The world needs to see a living witness of the true character of God, which is love and unity.

Sincerely,
Nogreaterlove
12-04-2005, 03:54 PM
Churchwork

Nogreaterlove,

There are born-again Christians everywhere: this is the body of Christ no matter how seemingly disjoined. What Biblical locality does is return us to the first century way of fellowship since it is true that apostles chose elders to take care of localities. Very simple. Who has authority to return us to this period? It is those 12 informal apostles today that agree on Biblical locality, hold no untruths, maintain agreement, set up the Meeting Place Finder, and do the Work for the Church of going out appointing and training elders. Its very simple when seen in this light. Those truths are seen in the questions agreed upon by the workers (informal apostles) to ask of informal apostles to be assured of their authority as the workers in The Ministry (Eph. 4.11). Then whatever disagreement may occur in a locality shall be confined to that locality which it alone as the local expression of the church must resolve.

What we are waiting for is twelve in agrement to come together to make this happen. To begin it! We are no better than these twelve that need to come together in agreement. If none come together in agreement this way, then any other way will not manifest Biblical locality since there is not the foundation of the twelve coming together in agreement first.
12-05-2005, 07:56 PM
Pax

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partrib

Pax,

As I was reading along what came to mind was elections. Our government elected is no better than the people that elect them. In the same way, these corporate structures as the church subsist on people electing them by funding them. I believe this problem will remain until Christ returns in Person to destroy it. While these problems are going on, the true church structure will reemerge as it once was in the first century. When it reaches its pinnacle, Christ returns.

I believe this too and see it happening in my little town here in Canada. I have been very discouraged by the mess created by men, both outside the church and inside. Hopefully He comes quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partrib

The buzz word is to get people to think about it. Biblocality = Biblical locality. It is wonderful to hear your acceptance of the only means by which the church is divided. Realize, the problem is, no one ever thinks in these terms. They are always trying to figure out how to usurp their particular denomination or some other way, but not the Biblical way of the local churches: informal apostles choose elders to take care of the entire locality. How simple, just as it is found in the Scriptures! This is called Biblocality. I wonder if I am the first person in the world to use this term? It is interesting how intuitively sometimes things just come to us. I was studying deeply vol. 1 & 2 of Church and the Work, by Watchman Nee, along with the Bible, when it just came to me. Those things given to us by the Holy Spirit will come seemingly out of nowhere and so effortlessly.

I don't understand everything that you propose, so I can't judge it. I have to read more about informal Apostles and the like.

My problem is that even with this system, there is divisions within the community. Like I said I live in a small tiny town in Canada and there are at least two different groups of "local churches". They don't see a couple of points the same way, and there you have it - division again.

I think division is the natural course of man. I don't know how to reconcile that with the idea of the "called-out" Church. This is what I call your biblocality church! LOL!

Ultimately, the names don't matter, it is the heart, the desire to be true to what He has called us to. If you read Acts, as we did as a group last year, it is an amazing and beautiful journey to understand the simplicity of the True Church. Not the church created by men, but the True Church.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partrib

What you describe about schooling for pastors is called the "pastoral system", and it is like you said, just an offshoot of the Roman Catholic system in its formal training and expense. Though we hold nothing against anyone that goes through such schooling, it by no means is a requirement, and whenever it is made to be, and it is the standard by which to judge, then it is just head knowledge and not one being led by the Holy Spirit. Apostles do not apply to an organization to be able to do the work of the Ministry. They just go out and do it. Teachers, prophets and evangelists are those who have these gifts, not because they have a diploma. Elders are working souls, just like you and I, and do not draw a salary for the work.

I understand this. I have to admit though, I don't understand your understanding of Apostle. Maybe it is my understanding that is wrong, but I always thought of Apostles as those who walked with Christ, or as in Paul's case, was chosen by Christ after rising from the dead.

One of the problems I have here that I honestly don't understand is how then do these new leaders of the church support themselves. That is where the system by man makes a little bit of sense, but like everything else, it is taited with coruption and gets away from the truth of Christ. I thought if it was me I would do it outside of my job, so I could do as Paul in the letter to the Thessalonians, work so I can eat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partrib

Your points are reasonable, except for one: you "don't understand and agree with everything that this site has to say". Can you be more specific?

Well, maybe I should have written that differently. I should say that I don't understand everything and leave it at that. Things like your idea of partial rapture. To me the end times are important, but I am concerned with the here and now, and I feel that penticostal theology gets away from the here and now and moves too much into the end times and trying to set dates and figure things out. I am here now, today. That is what I focus on.

That being said, I am not saying that that is wrong. I just have to read it more and understand it better.

The Apostle thing I mentioned before I also have a problem with, but it is more a matter of my lack of understanding.

I thank you for your availability to Christ and your desire to seek HIS truth.
12-05-2005, 10:42 PM
Churchwork

Pax,

I like your humble and learning spirit. Everything you need to understand what is being said here is on my pages. That's why I provided all these proofs so you need look no further. To my knowledge I have made no error. You will not find assitance from the calvinists, arminians, the historicalists, the pentecostals, and others, because remember, they are essentially denominations or part of a denomination with wrong teachings and they view things from these perspectives. They can not help us. Let us not continue to receive from the same old culprits, otherwise we will get the same old results - being stuck spiritually! The Lord has blessed with me with never having entered into these groups and showed me the truth right quick!

A community is a word that is not described as a city normally unless it is small enough I suppose. Normally a city has many communities. Therefore, a community is not a Biblical locality. A Biblical city is a Biblical locality. And a Biblical locality has many meeting places. A community will have a few meeting places too, but not as many as a Biblical locality, like the church of Ephesus or the church of Jerusalem. These are larger than mere communities. Just as the church of Edmonton or the church of Fresno are not communities.

And the reason God has His Biblical localities is because He knows man's flesh, even the flesh of brothers and sisters in Christ. By having the local church as a unit and agreeing that it is responsible unto itself and has no jurisdiction over other localities, the members of the body of Christ are confronted with having to resolve problems together. That is a good thing! Whereas now, things don't get resolved because members of different denominations don't stand side by site in a meeting together.

Biblical locality is much more effacious than having dozens of denominations in a city like Fresno, which has over 450 churches. There needs be proper authority and submission. Sometimes near a street intersection there is as many as 3 or 4 different denominations. How bizarre! How oddly the world must look at us. They think us no better than them for they do they same, with 3 or 4 different convenience stores in a street intersection competing for business.

With a denomination the problem spreads accross localities and even beyond regions and nations. If one group of buildings of a denomination are infected with a false doctrine, it will spread to the whole system. It is not the case with Biblical locality if brothers and sisters know the boundary of the church locale, as well as proper authority and submission in local expression of the church.

The solution to your small town, which itself is a Biblical locality according to governmental boundaries, is easy. Those two churches should close up shop and come together under the authority of the apostles choosing the elders for the entire town. They do not recognize this Scriptural principle in their conscience. If they did, they would solve this problem. But instead, they are happy with their congregationalism. The problem is, as always, where is that authority in the informal apostles? It does not exist because there is not the acceptance of of the Biblical teaching of the informal apostles selecting elders to take care of the whole locality.

This problem has gone on for almost 2000 years. It has gone on so long, it hard to believe it could ever be reclaimed again. Satan thinks he has won. He thought he had lost at the cross, but since then, he has developed a new idea to make a joke of the church which is suppose to be the expression of God's will on earth today. The church did fall away in losing the first love of Biblical locality. The brethren of 1828 were convinced that the church has fallen away. God considers them the Philadelphia church period because of their love of the truth. Paul, Peter and John denounce the church in the NT for their division. One says "I am of Apollos", another says, "I am of Cephas", etc. All denominations are started by a person.

I tell you the truth. The solution is clear as day and the darkness can not penetrate this truth. The truth is we need twelve informal apostles to agree on the truth to make a move to the return of the first century Ephesus church period, that first love that was lost. If you can't get even twelve to agree, then how do we expect to get all those in the kingdom of heaven to agree? Or even one denomination to agree to denounce itself? It's not possible.

These twelve are called informal apostles or the workers. They are informal because they are not formally the twelve original apostles and no longer are we in the apostolic age of apostles, which is the first century age.

Those two groups in your locality will never come together in agreement, and if they do it will be superficial because they do not accept the apostles having selected elders for that entire locality. Your church leaders go on their own work independently. If they were not independent then they would seek out the twelve informal apostles and call for this need and put themselves under authority. They are their own authority.

What Biblical locality is, is not the called out Church, but simply the normal condition of the church. What exists today is the abnormal condition of the church in which Satan has his hands in.

All Christians are called-out for we have all received the calling of God. God drew us all into his sheepfold. We are all saved. Though we may not all have overcome in Christ to receive rewards, we are all promised eternal life.

Not all Christians are apostles, for you wrote, "I always thought of Apostles as those who walked with Christ, or as in Paul's case, was chosen by Christ after rising from the dead." The work of apostles has not ceased. An apostle is one who comes out of his locality and is commissioned directly by God. Naturally those in his (the apostle's) locality send him forth to do the work. That work is the work of travelling and choosing elders, and those elders take care of localities. He or she also trains the elders.

All Christians will be risen from the dead. All Christians have died with Christ in addition to receiving the death of His Son for forgiveness of sins. All Christians have resurrection life. I know what I speak of. Noone can ever take this from me. And I have agreement with more spiritual brothers.

Never concern yourself with money. Paul went back to work even though he was an apostle. When funds run out, go get a job. Do not worry about this. Do the birds fret? Especially in our day and age, standards of living are very generous on very low wages. An apostle may receive a gift but it should not be a salaried or asked for. Trust this fact. Anyone on the internet asking for money with their donation buttons is asking for too much. If you publish a book, you may sell it, but do not charge very much. I don't even see a need for an apostle to write books and sell them. Their work is the work of travelling, appointing and training elders. Apostles are travelling salesmen and saleswomen.

It is these ones who will be remembered. Do you remember the preacher who charges you for everything and pushes the plate in front of you all the time? I think not. He quickly passes away in memory. I remember the unsuspecting soul who told me wonderful truths about the church and who never asked for a dime, and even gave me his shirt.

Man's way makes no sense! Never bring filthy lucre into a website or a church locale. Never charge for anything. Christians are those who are in forced poverty and those who are in voluntary poverty. Praise God! I love this. Weath is meaningless. This by no means suggest that a Christian can't have a million dollars, but let us recall, it is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than a camel to go through an eye of a needle. I don't know how to explain this matter better.

You made a mistake in considering partial rapture with pentecostalism. The latter does not believe in partial rapture. Most pentecostals have two main problems:

1) they believe in pre-trib rapture only for the whole church with no consideration for Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 which says only those who keep the Word of His patience will be received at first rapture and accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial, that hour of the Tribulation which shall come upon the whole world. The here and now is very real for the here and now is resurrection life for the believer, having a foretaste of the day of the Lord when we are raptured together in the last week. The negative consequence of what Pentecostals or pretrib onlyists is clear: when they enter into the Tribulation they will not realize it, assuming it was NOT the Tribulation because they would have been raptured already. Then they take the mark of the beast, because they assume it can't be the mark of the beast in the Tribulation because they are not in the Tribulation, so they think. Do you see?

2) the other problem with Pentecostalism is that it is just like Montanism is gibberish babble. There is no gibberish babble in the Bible. In the second century Montanism taught gibberish babble was tongues, and all these centuries later Pentecostalism does this also. Satan is using this to create mass delusion. It is not of God. It is not Biblical tongues.

In partial rapture, no dates are being set. There is the first rapture as well as the 7th trumpet resurrection and all the details in between revealed in the Scriptures. Why is it important to know this? Because God wants you to overcome in Him and with the hope of His coming is the hope of receiving you to the throne. He does not want you to go through the Tribulation, but at the same time, if you are not ready, you will go through it, and even be martyred possibly.

As well, to go through the Tribulation is not all loss, for this is further opportunity to overcome while still in the body since martyrs in Christ are overcomers; and even if you are still not martyred, you may overcome without martyrdom. As T. Austin Sparks says, "there are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere". And it is true also for the consummation of this age. We should not be surprised by this. Rev. 14 speaks of the firstfruits and the later harvest.

God gives you an eye to eternity past in Genesis and an eye to eternity future in Revelation. By no means does this mean that the present is not valuable. It is most valuable. But how can you truly be in the present if you don't appreciate the past or the future as God shows it? Read Rev. 1.3 and ask why is the book of Revelation the only book of the Bible to open with this direct blessing to read Revelation and know it?