Premillennialism vs. Amillennialism

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08-31-2014, 02:12 PM
revivin

Premillennialism vs. Amillennialism

Quote:

Originally Posted by soterion

Mark 1:14-15 teaches that the time for the kingdom to be established was fulfilled and that it was at hand when Christ first came, not 2,000+ years later when He will someday return.

Acts 2:22-36 teaches that Jesus was seated on the throne of David when He was resurrected and exalted to the right hand of God.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 teaches that when Christ returns, He will deliver up the kingdom to God. The kingdom will not begin on earth when He comes back; rather, it's existence on the earth will end.

How do you know the "gospel of the kingdom of God" is the 1000 years where Satan "should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Rev. 20.3)? Are not the nations deceived still now with wars and rumors of wars? Whereas “the kingdom of God is righteous and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14.17). "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison" (Rev. 20.7). Was Satan in prison prior to Jesus? or is Satan in prison now with 10,000 children dying every day due to starvation? Overcomers in Christ "shall reign with him a thousand years" (v.6). Who is reigning over the nations now in the highest positions of government (2.26,27) certainly not believers? Could it be Jesus at the right hand of the Father does not mean He is reigning on earth for 1000 years right now?

Let us review the things we have already seen previously concerning the kingdom of heaven. After the birth of Christ, there comes one who prepares the way for Him. His name is John, and he proclaims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Lord, together with the apostles whom He sends forth, announce the same news. What does it mean? Later on, as noted in chapters 8 and 9, we see that the Lord heals the sick and casts out demons, and that all these are closely related to the nearness of the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5-7 speaks of the nature of the kingdom of heaven: which is, that those who belong to this kingdom are absolutely righteous towards themselves, absolutely gracious towards others, and absolutely pure towards God. In Matthew 10 we learn that the Lord sends out His apostles. And in Matthew 11-12 we see that a great transition begins occurring, as though the kingdom of heaven is now being taken away from the Jews.

Now with regard to the kingdom of heaven found spoken of in Matthew 13, some interpreters have asserted that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are the kingdom of heaven in mystery. Such an assertion is logically unsound when it is held up against all the things which we have just seen: how that both John and the Lord as well as His disciples proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, how that the Lord then announces the nature or character of this kingdom, and how after He is rejected by the children of Israel He in the thirteenth chapter is found declaring only the outward boundary of this kingdom (what we see in this age being but the outward appearance). So that chapter 13 does not deal with the character or nature of the kingdom of heaven, for this has already been described in Matthew 5-7.

Some, on the other hand, contend that all who desire to enter the kingdom of heaven mentioned in chapter 13 must possess the character of the kingdom of heaven as laid down in chapters 5-7. This interpretation again is impossible to accept, since in chapter 13 we have presented the tares, the leaven, and so forth as being in the kingdom of heaven. So that this chapter presents to us nothing but the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom of heaven is not the millennial kingdom; it is the reigning in the millennial kingdom. Let us see that the kingdom of heaven has three different aspects.

(1) An outward appearance, boundary, or scope as is shown to us in Matthew 13.

(2) A spiritual reality, that is to say, a kind of spiritual conduct which is formed as a result of learning righteousness and grace progressively under the authority of God and which is elucidated for us in Matthew 5-7; and

(3) A reigning with Christ in the future millennial kingdom as revealed in the fact of our future reward as told to us in Matthew 5-7.

Accordingly, we must first of all enter into the sphere or boundary of this kingdom of heaven by being sons of the kingdom; then secondly, we need to have the kind of conduct described for us in Matthew 5-7 – which is to have real spiritual conduct; and lastly, as a consequence we may reign with the Lord.

Today there are three different kinds of people:

(1) those who have entered within the sphere of the kingdom of heaven and yet unsaved; these are represented by tares.

(2) those who have been saved and are in the domain of the kingdom of heaven, ye they fail to keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7.

(3) those who are saved and also keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7; they truly overcome, and therefore in the future they shall reign with the Lord in the third stage or aspect of the kingdom of heaven.

A Comparison Between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God

The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are distinguishable but are not separable. Let us consider in some detail these two descriptive phrases found in Scriptures.

(1) With certain parables Matthew employs the statement “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto . . . “; but Luke uses the words “The kingdom of God is like. . . . “ for the same parables – thus indicating that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. Both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven in these parallel instances refer to the outward domain of the kingdom. On this level, it can be said that the outward appearances of both the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are alike. Parables such as that of the leaven belong to this category.

(2) Yet the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not synonymous with respect to the second aspect of the kingdom of heaven, inasmuch as what is described in Matthew 5-7 speaks of actual overt behavior whereas “the kingdom of God is righteous and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14.17). The one stresses spiritual conduct; the other inner spiritual condition.

(3) Even so, in the third aspect of the kingdom of heaven is again similar to the kingdom of God since both refer to the matter of reigning during the millennial kingdom.

Though the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are similar as regards the first aspect, the kingdom of God covers also the time of which the prophets in the Old Testament speak – for whenever the sovereignty of God is present, His domain is there at the same time. But this characteristic is not applicable to the kingdom of heaven.

With regard to the third aspect, it is true that the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven in that both refer to ruling with Christ in the millennium; yet the kingdom of God extends further on into eternity since in eternity God also reigns – but by that time the kingdom of heaven will have passed away. With respect to the third aspect, therefore, the kingdom of God exists longer than the kingdom of heaven.

In certain sense it can be said that the kingdom of God includes the kingdom of heaven, but not vic versa.

So far as the outward official history of the church on earth goes today, there can be said to be the Roman Catholic Church, the national churches, and the private churches. The Roman Catholic Church claims that the entire world is under her domain and that no national church is therefore allowed. The national church such as the Anglican Church asserts that every citizen of the nation belongs to the Church. But due to dissatisfaction with the national churches, there came into being the so-called private churches.

As regards to the outward sphere, as long as people say they are Christians, no one can drive them out of the kingdom of heaven; for the Lord has not promised to weed out the tares today. At communion or the Lord’s Table or the breaking of bread, however, the church may indeed weed out or separate the unsaved and the wicked from the saved ones. So that in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven, such as in a national church, unbelieving people may be included therein, but in the sphere of the believing assembly an unsaved person may be excluded from fellowship. This clarifies the two totally different spheres: that of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven and that of the church. Within the boundary of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven there may be tares; but within the churches the body of Christ there is only wheat no tares.
08-31-2014, 02:17 PM
revivin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Baker

The strongest scripture that condemns premillennialism and support amillenlialism, one that premill group cannot answer is found in 2 Thess. 2. If I was standing before a person who believed in premillennialism I would ask him this question: "Which come first~ Christ's coming, or antichrist?" Now he must say Christ's coming, since that is what they believe and teach; yet Paul, said in 2 Thess. 2 that antichrist must come first.

"Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction" (2 Thess. 2.3). This says Jesus won't step down on the mount of olives until the Antichrist is revealed who will "will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God" (v.4). Premillennialists don't say Jesus comes first.

Pretrib and Postrib both claim before Jesus steps down, the Antichrist must be revealed who is already working in the spirit of others: "And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming. This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles" (vv.6-9). Satan is restraining his Antichrist to be revealed at the right time.
08-31-2014, 02:27 PM
revivin

In conclusion, Jesus is reigning above, but not on earth with a rod iron when He returns with His overcomers, so the 1000 years has not yet begun. A rod of iron is not needed in Rev. 21 the New City and New Earth, but is needed in Rev. 20, because many people will not believe in Christ even though he is reigning on earth for 1000 years when He returns. See Rev. 2.26,27; 20.4-6.
08-31-2014, 08:06 PM
revivin

I believe that this matter was resolved in the 1st century as many would agree. Because it says in Rev 20.3 the nations are not deceived in the 1000 years. How can we say the nations are not deceived today when 10,000 children die every day due to starvation and we continue to hear of wars and rumors of wars?

We are also told Satan is the god of this world today, so how could he be in the pit now? Satan wasn't put in the pit when Jesus died on the cross. So he continues to operate today. Hence, the need for spiritual warfare.

Satan is put in the pit for 1000 years. But that can't be after eternity future because it says he is released at the end of the millennium. Eternity future goes on forever. So the millennium can't be eternity future in the New City and New Earth, because all things are reconciled before then.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor 4.4).

"And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season" (Rev 20.3).
09-03-2014, 08:28 PM
Parture

It's obvious Satan is the first "theos" in 2 Cor. 4:4. The historicist can't think of anyone it would be but is adamant it is not Satan because if it was it would ruin their entire theology. All Bible versions that I know of put in a small "g" for this theos.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4).

How can the prince of the power of the air be in the pit? The pit is below, the air is above. Satan is in the pit during the millennial kingdom. So the millennial kingdom is not happening yet, not till Jesus returns. Very simple to understand.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2).

You know what I find interesting is how the historicist can't see this is Satan in each of these verses the same god of this world. Who else can it be but Satan? I think they worship Satan since they don't acknowledge these verses are clearly about him.

"Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out" (John 12:31).

"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

So all historicisms -- amillennial, postmillennial and preterism -- are heresies. They are waiting for the wrong Jesus even worshiping a false Christ now. What can God do but send them to Hell if they don't repent and receive Christ!

James White can't distinguish God from Satan in 2 Cor. 4.4 he admits,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdmx...CD654E01C5F934
09-05-2014, 09:14 PM
revivin

Quote:

Originally Posted by chimo

The 1000 years which the Bible speaks of is a figure of speech and does not mean a literal 1000 years but a long time of frame. It is my understanding that we are in these 1000 years now. The reign of Christ had occurred with his Death, Resurrection and with the sending of the Holy Spirit until this present time. However the devil is said to be chained during that time meaning the devil is only limited to his activity towards us, to the Church and to the world. The devil is on a leashed which means he cannot go beyond what God allows. However for some reason the devil must be loosed for awhile which means God will permit the devil much more activity than he was allowed. This loosing does not mean the end is coming or "oh no" what are we to do since the devil has this permission to do more because God will have this devil loosed. On the contrary God does this just for the opposite meaning. And what is that? So that His Church will be elevated higher and to make it stronger. The loosing of the devil is for our own good for if God had not decided for the devil to be loosed at this time we will find ourselves in a more worse scenario. Do not be surprised at this. God uses the devil to strengthen His Church not to bring it down. Understand that God knows what He needs to do to help strengthen His Church to be the hope for the world and so we need not to be afraid. This loosing of the devil corresponds to the time when God permitted the devil to be more loosed unto Job. The Church presently is going through the same as Job and we know what happened to Job at the end of his ordeal so we believe the same will happen for the Church.

If we are in the 1000 years now in which Satan is the god of this world and ruler of this world, how is he able to do so since he would also be in the pit that is completed sealed (Rev. 20.3)? "Shut it and sealed it over him." Maybe he is escaping through some back door at night.

How are the saints reigning with Christ now over the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 2.26,27; 20.4-6)?

How is Satan merely only limited when Rev. 20.3 says there is a seal on the pit so no contact, no ability to communicate from the pit to the world?

Even though you don't know why Satan is let out of the pit for a short while, premillennialists do know: 1) to show Satan will never repent; 2) to show man still had yet some hidden sin; and 3) God's good pleasure to defeat Satan and put him in Hell.
09-06-2014, 01:31 AM
revivin

Revelation 20.3 says during the 1000 years Satan is in the pit: "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

My question #1: How can Satan currently be the god of this world and ruler of this world if he is in the pit, totally sealed, for 1000 years?

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4).
"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2).
"Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out" (John 12:31).
"We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).

My question #2: How can overcomer saints be reigning over the nations today with a rod of iron for 1000 years since today few Christians are in a position of power to do so? Many of us are being martyred.

"They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev. 20.4,6).
"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron" (2.26,27).

When it says "they shall be" won't that be a future millennial kingdom? "I will give" is future. "He shall rule" is not happening now.
09-08-2014, 01:35 PM
revivin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel1136

Satan is not in the abyss now, but he will go there so that he cannot deceive the mortal nations of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth

The believer in Jesus Christ lives in this present world, but is not of it

So His ecclesia are not ruling the world ..... yet [Romans 8]

All one has to do is look around .... the Lord and His true church are not ruling the world and this should obvious .... if true we have a big problem

There are those of the professing church with false teachers that claim they are the kingdom of God ruling on earth now, but this is a crafted deception and not true

This idea is the false teaching of bedrock amillennalism meaning that there will be no future millennial kingdom with the Lord ruling in person on the earth

The teaching has its roots in the early professing church fostered by the propriety ambitions of men that are essentially blinded by Satan even today

Here are some hints about what is going with this false teaching:

Satan is the ruler if this present world and wants people to worship him as "god"

So this devil has a huge foot hold in the professing church

And this one does not want Jesus Christ to come and rightly rule over His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth

Because of this [Revelation 20:1-3], and ultimately this [Revelation 20:10]

Lots of verses showing Jesus returns to reign on earth,
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/topics/second-coming-jesus
09-14-2014, 05:11 PM
revivin

6 questions for the InSINcere:

1) How can Satan be the "god of this world" (2 Cor. 4.4), "prince of the air" (Eph. 2.2) and "ruler of this world" (John 12.31) if he is sealed in the pit for 1000 years (Rev. 20.3)?

2) How can Christians be reigning today "over the nations" with a "rod of iron" (Rev. 2.26,27) if we are being martyred daily?

3) How can there be two rulers, those who "overcometh" (Rev. 2.26) reigning "with Christ" (20.4), "with Him" (v.6), for 1000 years if Satan is "ruler of this world" now also?

4) If the nations are not deceived in the 1000 years where Satan can "deceive the nations no more, till the 1000 years is finished" (Rev. 20.3), how can the 1000 years be now since 10,000 children die every day due to starvation and we continue to hear of wars and rumors of wars?

5) What would prevent the gospel of salvation being distributed to the nations so they would be deceived again when Satan is let out for a short while at the end of the 1000 years? Surely everyone in all the nations can continue to hear the gospel to be saved even if Satan were let out of the pit otherwise that would give credence to Calvinism.

6) When a person dies they go to soul sleep; if saved, to the good side of Hades, Abraham's bosom, waiting to be resurrected at the "last trumpet" (1 Cor. 15.50-52; 1 Thess. 4.14-18). How can those who "overcometh" be reigning over the nations today if they are asleep? There is no party going on in Heaven right now of the resurrected saved.

1 Thess. 4 says, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God ('at the last trumpet' 1 Cor. 15.52): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (vv.14-18).
09-16-2014, 05:54 PM
revivin

"The LORD will mediate between nations and will settle international disputes. They will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer fight against nation, nor train for war anymore" (Is. 2.4). There won't be international disputes in eternity future, only in the millennial kingdom. And in the millennial kingdom there will no longer being nations fighting. That's not happening now.

"No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed" (Is. 65.20). Children die quickly through malnutrition or from being born into sin. Children will not die in eternity future. So this time spoken of if not now or eternity future, must be the future millennial kingdom. 10,000 children die of starvation every day or from other abuse.

"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea" (Hab. 2.14). This is certainly not the condition today. Most people I speak to reject the Lord.