Re: http://www.thebereancall.org/node/7109
1 Thess. 4.15-17 says we will be resurrected together. Therefore soul sleep or timeless unawares must be true, just like Jesus said He would see the repentant thief this day in paradise below in the good side of Hades.
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Originally Posted by Ed
This is an excellent demonstration of how human reasoning may override the plain meaning of Scripture. As the writer of Hebrews notes (present tense), were our eyes opened to see beyond this vale to that which is just as real we are in the presence of "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23). Not spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23), but just the "spirit" at this time. That is consistent with the context of the entirety of Scripture.
Hebrews 12 does not say they are resurrected in spirit, soul or body, but they are those whose names are written in heaven: "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (v.23a). This is present tense. Present tense doesn't mean they are actually in heaven, but that they are written in heaven, for that great and wonderful day of resurrection: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (1 Thess. 4.15). And "the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v.16) "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v.17). And SO we shall be with the Lord! Not before.
Nobody is with the Lord right now, because nobody has been resurrected yet spirit, soul and body. "To the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12.23b) indicates not resurrection but further in the paragraph explains, received "the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things" (v.24). If you are saved "you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering" (v.22). How strange that some have actually entered the New City as coming to God while we who have come to God have not entered which violates (1 Thess. 4.15-17). We must read correctly in Hebrews 12, "you have come" and "spirit of just men made perfect" have been redeemed by "the blood." I am perfect before the Lord does not mean I am sinless, but God presents me as being sinless to Him as the precious blood washed away my sins. When Jesus shed His blood for our sins, we were completely forgiven. Furthermore, it would make Paul's words meaningless if people were in the New City already. He said, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thess. 4.18) for we are being comforted in being resurrected together. The emphasis is on togetherness: "shall be caught up together" That doesn't give us comfort knowing everyone who has ever been saved is in Third Heaven while we are enduring on Earth. What gives me comfort is my brothers and sisters who are saved are quietly resting in Abraham's bosom and when they are awaken, it will be like it was the say day they passed into the grave. When I go to rest or soul sleep, I am comforted in knowing I will be awaken with the saints and resurrected together.
Let us be humble when we read the Scriptures and not assume into the text for that is a vale of self-deception one wears to assume that which is not stated, seeing darkly, and tries to make sense in human terms. How can God let so many people rest in Abraham's bosom to await resurrection of their spirit, soul and body? In the same way that the unregenerates will have to wait a thousand years. You have a spirit, but you are not a spirit, so you need your soul present with you where you go, and your soul can't go somewhere without a body. God breathed in the breath of life directly creating man's spirit. When it made contact with the body, the soul life was created. How strange it would be your spirit with its functions of intuition, communion and conscience is separated in another domain from your soul and body. Many strange teachings could come from this such as channeling, having a doppelganger, talking to dead people, and quantum leaps, etc. It's the New Age teaching of the Church today that you go to Heaven the minute you die.
Without the proper dividing of your spirit, soul and body to walk by the spirit, many strange teachings will arise.
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Further, we need to understand the clear statements in the New Testament. Paul did not say that it was better to depart and “sleep until the resurrection,” but rather to “be with Christ” (Philippians 1:23). Neither did Paul say that to be absent from the body was to be “asleep” (2 Corinthians 5:8). Moreover, both of these passages speak about “dwelling” or “abiding” in our “earthly house.” If words have any meaning at all, there must be something that can “depart” or be “absent” from the body that is more than mere breath.
The transition of sleep between departing and resurrecting is not a focal point needing mentioning. There are those under the altar in the fifth seal who were waiting for a long time in the grave, but then they were given white robes at first rapture (Rev. 7.9) and were told to wait a little longer for the rest of there brethren who would be martyred during the Tribulation would come in. Only during the Tribulation do people get resurrected and raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest like the Two Witnesses and only if they were martyred. To "be with Christ" occurs at resurrection, not before, since there are no Scriptures that suggest a spirit separation from body that precedes a bodily rapture. I am resurrected in spirit even now and have had the experience a spirit of rapture, but this doesn't mean I am walking around in the New City with just my spirit. To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. Don't legalize these words and take out the believers who are resting in Abraham's bosom. Likewise, don't overlook the gap between Genesis 1 and 2. The Bible says, not even David is in heaven yet. Should we call God a liar in His word? We need to be very leery of illogical ideas that violate Scripture.
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The words used in these scriptures help us discern where the misunderstanding occurs. It involves the makeup of a man. Those who would deny the “spirit, soul, and body” (1 Thessalonians 5:23) will certainly have trouble distinguishing the differences and implications involved. As Peter pointed out in Acts 2:34, David (his body) certainly had not ascended into heaven. Nevertheless, we may reasonably surmise from David’s own words that he expected to see his son and not waiting until the resurrection of the body had occurred (2 Samuel 12:23).
Ed, you misunderstand the spirit, soul and body. The spirit has its functions and the soul has its functions; neither of them can be separated from each other from beyond the body. Man never goes anywhere with his spirit while leaving himself behind, that is, his soul. Man is a living soul (with a spirit and body). Man is a soulical being with a spirit and body, not spirit in one dimension with no mind, volition or feeling in a soul; and a soul in another dimension. How strange that would be!
Acts 2.34 is saying David has not ascended to heaven, that is, his very soul which is himself. Just like Hunt exposes the Roman Church, scholars expose your false teaching of spiritism. Don't read into the text and change "David" to "David just his body". That would be strange that he would be walking around in the New City with his body, but he himself with his soul and spirit are still in Hades. What false teaching! Satan is the author of confusion. Just like Calvinists insert Total depravity into every chapter of the Bible, you insert falsely ascribed parts of man in different places which is a violation of man's very spirit, soul and body to be sanctified holy: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5.23). Together all 3 parts of man remain together "wholly" and are kept together till when? To the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, His reign on earth.
"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" (2 Sam. 12.23) David can certainly go to Hades where his son is and be resurrected with him the last day (1 Thess. 4.15-17, 1 Cor. 15.23,50-52), but his son can't come back alive before then.
It would be quite strange if your spirit and soul had no body in heaven and then you get resurrected after that. The Bible says nobody can come to God before the throne naked.
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That's only strange if one operates on a preconceived idea. Rather, we consider what the Scripture states. "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed on, that mortality might be swallowed up of life" (2 Corinthians 5:4). In this life and burdened in this corrupting body, "we" (obviously more than the body) do desire to receive our resurrection bodies. As believers, we have the Holy Spirit, "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory" (Ephesians 1:14). Until the "full redemption" (i.e., the resurrection) there is a period of time in waiting for the final redemption.
2 Cor. 5.2 reads "For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies." You are not going to be a spirit for a while then given a body to reanimate your soul life. Yet you claim you are going to be a spirit being for awhile before you then get resurrected with a body. How fanciful and unScriptural. Though there are evidences such as Abraham's bosom and the repentant thief seeing Jesus this day in paradise below when he died, there is no evidence in Scripture for just being a spirit being frolicking around in the New City before getting the mind of your soul and new body. The period of time for waiting for resurrection is timeless unawares. Furthermore, while you have delusions of frolicking in the New City the minute you die, the reality is only those at first rapture who keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) come before the throne (7.9) before the trumpets of Tribulation.
Your belief is that the salvation ends there at the resurrection. But what about non-overcomer believers who had not "overcometh" in Rev. 2 & 3? Are they included in the "first resurrection"? (Rev. 20.4) Of course, not, for they shall lose their rewards in out darkness (it has no fire or furnace about it), outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ during the thousand years. You can see what I am getting at here. Your frolicking is unto loss of rewards, not to return to reign with Christ during the 1000 years, but you would need to be disciplined in outer darkness for the 1000 years prior to the New City and New Earth in eternity future. Your conscience drops because of your teaching, or you might say, imposing upon the Scriptures your beliefs is a reflection of your seared and unrenewed conscience.
Understand the Rich Man and Lazarus was an anthropomorphic parable, not an actual event. The Rich Man is not annihilated, but he is awaiting resurrection for Hell. Whereas Lazarus is awaiting resurrection with the saints.
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The teaching of soul sleep creates a myriad of contradictions. There are all sorts of exceptions to the presumptions of soul sleep. Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration (Matthew 17). Neither had been resurrected, but both were actively communicating with the Lord Jesus. When He led captivity captive, who was He leading? What about the spirits in prison? What about the story of the rich man and Lazarus? (No other parable specifically names a person. And, even if it could be proved a parable, every one of the Lord’s parables involve elements which actually happen. A sower could go forth to sow, a farmer could lease out a vineyard, etc.).
Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration was a vision only of the future, which is quite unique, because normally visions are individually experienced, not in group settings. The transfiguration did not take place in the New City. It was to fulfill the prophecy given by Jesus, "I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16.28) where the law and the prophets point to Jesus. Six days later, James, Peter and John saw Jesus coming in His kingdom. The kingdom of heaven had begun with John the Baptist, but this prophecy was the coming in His kingdom. Strong visions as these are powerful, anchor and spiritually motivate the disciples. It was to fulfill the prophecy some would see Jesus coming in His kingdom, receiving a glimpse of the future kingdom-to-come. Moses is still actually asleep. Only Enoch and Elijah were raptured alive who come back to die as the Two Witnesses. We are appointed once to die. But, what, you might ask, have they been doing all these centuries? I believe Enoch and Elijah were resting in a state of timeless unawares, to be reanimated for the Tribulation period to speak against the Antichrist and False Prophet which convicts the world even more, that they are really without excuse.
So you see, it is in not reading the Scriptures how the popular masses read Scripture (there are some popular ideas out there like non-OSAS, Calvinism, Pentecostalism gibberish babble, etc.), but the Holy Spirit testifies in our spirits in agreement with the word of God how Scripture is correctly read and understood.
You asked when He led captivity captive, who was He leading? The unsaved souls, some of whom became saved. Leading the captivity captive in no way indicates a separation from your body and soul, walking around in your spirit like a ghost. How bizarre. The spirits in prison (the deep or abyss) speak of the demons, some of whom were released on Day 2 because the the firmament split unavoidably released some, one of which came into the serpent to tempt Eve. Those that came up when Jesus died on the cross came out of their tombs which was a sign of the future resurrection. It was a foretaste. God always provides a revelation that builds upon other revelations. Again, their resurrection was an exception to the rule. The sense I get is they would live out their lives to eventually die. Just like Lazarus.
It was not their spirits (for that is spiritism), but "many bodies of the saints which slept arose" (Matt. 27.52). Many have difficulty explaining this passage. But it is not hard to understand when you take it in the proper light. They had bodies, so they were not as you suggested "spirits," or ghosts. It appears as though they had never really died in coming out of their tombs or they are put into that category, for they would yet die on their bodies of flesh and blood. Throughout history this has happened where people who were thought dead had not died, though in this case, I do believe it was a Divine act of God. They "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many" (Matt. 27.52) bodily, not as ghosts. Praise the Lord!
Demons are spirits. Man is not a spirit.
Lazarus really is Lazarus. The Rich Man is really the Rich Man. But their conditions and communications were anthropomorphically explained, since Hades is a place of timeless unawares. Remember, we are not spirits though we have a spirit which is our inner man.
What is the negative consequences of believing what you believe? It engenders all kinds of fantasies in your sleep and of near death experiences of claiming you were with loved ones in 3rd heaven. Satan will give these impressions and he will use that to bring in odd revelations and allegedly 3rd heaven experiences of seeing dead people in heaven already.
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"Motivation" is key. It is instructive that the modern teaching of soul sleep paralleled the development of spiritualism. It was reasoned, if there is no consciousness after death, that "solved" the dilemma of presented by the false teaching of spiritualism. Nevertheless, the Scriptures contain prohibitions against necromancy. There is a reason and that should be sufficient.
Spiritualism or spiritism communication is assumed communication with the living consciousness of dead people or people raised as spirit beings. This motivation is the motivation of false teachers who had not the willingness or humility to accept God's word unassumingly. There is prohibition against Necromancy, but many like Perry Stone and others have guests on their shows which present communication with those loved ones. This is channeling false spirits. It is happening so much in Christendom, but it is imaginations gone wild. It is effectively necromancy, and you engender such thoughts since you claim these visions in Scripture are communications with spirits without souls and bodies. You are doing one thing, then proclaiming another. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Near death experiences and dreams play into this to receive communication on the other end from evil spirits masquerading as loved ones or you projecting your own affections and desires into your experience, but the evil spirits providing the fertile ground.
But the Bible ways not even David is in 3rd heaven yet. Don't you guys question yourselves on these points? I do, that's why I can't hold your view. If you can't find an answer, then allow your heart to accept soul sleep.
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The shoe is on the other foot and we have presented a few of the dilemmas you face. We can certainly point to more.
The shoe still belongs to you, so I hand it back to you. It's too old for me. Each alleged dilemma as we have seen is no dilemma; but insurmountable problems exist for your view. Though you may find more alleged dilemmas, if you couldn't make your case by now, you never will. But if you never repent of your false teaching, at best you will lose rewards, at worse it is a sign of unsalvation. I just bring you this understanding so you can work out your own salvation if you are indeed saved.
You certainly will be with the Lord after you die, just not the second it happens. Patience! Learn patience!
