Calvinisim and Universalism are Similar

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09-24-2011, 04:09 AM
motibi

Calvinisim and Universalism are Similar

Calvinists believe Jesus died only for the elect, yet Paul showed he is the saviour of the whole world
1Timothy 4:10 "for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing. "

Calvinists believe only the elect will be made righteous, yet Jesus will make everyone righteous,
Romans 5:19 "for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. "

Calvinists believe as the elect they have no role in helping to save the rest of the creation through judgement, yet
Obadiah 1:21 "Saviors will go up on Mount Zion to judge the mountains of Esau, and the kingdom will be Yahweh's"

Calvinists believe only the elect are saved in this lifetime correct but they don't believe everyone else will be saved afterward,
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 "for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --"
09-24-2011, 01:02 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by motibi

Calvinists believe Jesus died only for the elect, yet Paul showed he is the saviour of the whole world
1Timothy 4:10 "for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing. "

I didn't realize there were two "for"'s in that verse. Savior of all men means Jesus died on the cross to save anyone, whosoever is willing. Hell exists because obviously many prefer to eternally separate themselves from God. The Church has always rejected Universalism and Calvinism, so that ain't going to stop now. Jesus died for all out which He died for the elect to choose out a particular people for Himself, so He chose those who choose Him.

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Calvinists believe only the elect will be made righteous, yet Jesus will make everyone righteous,
Romans 5:19 "for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. "

Many will be constituted righteous, not all. Calvinism is wrong too here because the elect are not made righteous irresistibly, but they are given the free choice to enter into God's fold.

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Calvinists believe as the elect they have no role in helping to save the rest of the creation through judgement, yet
Obadiah 1:21 "Saviors will go up on Mount Zion to judge the mountains of Esau, and the kingdom will be Yahweh's"

We might consider these "Rescuers" or "Saviors" as Overcomers who get to reign during the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.4). But as to your claim Calvinists have no role to help, they don't believe that. It is twisted, but they think in being made to irresistibly do what they do it is actually helping others even though they give false hope to those whom their god never provides any grace to have any opportunity to be saved. Don't underestimate how far down a Calvinist can rationalize their false faith down the delusional rabbit hole of Calvinism.

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Calvinists believe only the elect are saved in this lifetime correct but they don't believe everyone else will be saved afterward, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 "for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --"

This verse and section are obviously talking about the saved resurrected at the end of this age and not the unsaved. Even so, everyone shall be resurrected, except the damned such as yourself will be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years. "After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. For the Scriptures say, 'God has put all things under his authority' (1 Cor. 15.24-27). This passage does not say "glorifying every ruler and authority and power" but "destroyed." Nor does this passage say He "glorifies all his enemies no longer under his feet." They forever remain under under his feet in Hell, destroyed, consciously aware of their wrong choice, and eternally separated from the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

Ye have no faith in this Jesus of the Bible so shall you go to Hell.
09-24-2011, 07:15 PM
motibi

Universalist Limited Atonement for All

Interesting, Romans 5:19 is pretty much impossible for Calvinists to refute because they teach a limited atonement in essence; since only those whose choice God foreknew, are saved therefore the blood of Christ will only atone for a few in their view. Furthermore selfish Calvinists take the verse out of context by saying “many” is less than all. The context clearly shows that every human being was constituted a sinner by Gods will and later on will be saved by God’s will. Otherwise what is the point of emphasising “THE many” in both parts of the verse.
Obadiah 1:21 calls these people “Saviours”. It is quite peculiar why they are called saviours, I mean who or what are they saving? I mean If most of creation is destined to burn for eternity how can these verses make sense
Romans 8:20-22 “ for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now”

Actually in 1 corinthians 15:22 the word used is "zoopoiethesontai" and this is a future passive verb meaning to vivify, to make alive beyond the reach of death. The Greek word "anastasis" means resurrection and is used in verse 21 of the same chapter. We know that Jesus resurrected several people as recorded in the Gospels, but that does not mean they received unending life at that point.
Even more the context is about every man being saved, since 1 corinthians 15:22-24 says “for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and EACH in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power”

Selfish calvinists believe Christs blood will atone for a few therefore they preach a limited atonement. Others will disguise atonement by saying "potential" unlimited atonement; yet we know several haven't even so much as heard of Christ; I mean how will Adam be saved, King solomon be saved e.t.c. when there is no name under heaven but Jesus to save them? Interesting
09-24-2011, 08:02 PM
Faithful

Quote:

Originally Posted by motibi

Interesting, Romans 5:19 is pretty much impossible for Calvinists to refute because they teach a limited atonement in essence; since only those whose choice God foreknew, are saved therefore the blood of Christ will only atone for a few in their view. Furthermore selfish Calvinists take the verse out of context by saying “many” is less than all. The context clearly shows that every human being was constituted a sinner by Gods will and later on will be saved by God’s will. Otherwise what is the point of emphasising “THE many” in both parts of the verse.

Calvinists don't believe "only those whose choice God foreknew." Calvinists reject this teaching of OSAS Arminians. Many is less than all. Arminians believe many is less than all. So do Calvinists. The difference is how we come to that many. If it meant all would be saved it would have said so, instead it says many. So not everyone will be saved. Most, in fact, will go to Hell. Free choice is not truly free if you don't have the choice to be eternally separated from God. You're kind of like Calvinists in that regarded. The point of emphasizing the "many" is that many will be saved, but not all.

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Obadiah 1:21 calls these people “Saviours”. It is quite peculiar why they are called saviours, I mean who or what are they saving? I mean If most of creation is destined to burn for eternity how can these verses make sense

I really like that term "Saviours" as it depicts those who receive the reward of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. It is through their authority in Christ that the regeneration of the world takes place (Matt. 19.28), where the lamb and lion lay down together in peace. Praise the Lord! You don't explain why you think this doesn't make sense.

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Romans 8:20-22 “ for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now”

Amen.

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Actually in 1 corinthians 15:22 the word used is "zoopoiethesontai" and this is a future passive verb meaning to vivify, to make alive beyond the reach of death. The Greek word "anastasis" means resurrection and is used in verse 21 of the same chapter. We know that Jesus resurrected several people as recorded in the Gospels, but that does not mean they received unending life at that point. Even more the context is about every man being saved, since 1 corinthians 15:22-24 says “for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and EACH in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power”

Actually, the NLT makes this verse easier to understand: "Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life" (1 Cor. 15.22). "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (KJV). Those "in Christ shall all be made alive." Those not in Christ will not be made alive, that is, given eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Anyone resurrected has been given a new body. They will not die again as you suggest.

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Selfish calvinists believe Christs blood will atone for a few therefore they preach a limited atonement. Others will disguise atonement by saying "potential" unlimited atonement; yet we know several haven't even so much as heard of Christ; I mean how will Adam be saved, King solomon be saved e.t.c. when there is no name under heaven but Jesus to save them? Interesting

I am ok with the phrase potential unlimited atonement. If everyone was willing then everyone would be saved. Sadly, many such as yourself, are unwilling for various reasons. In your case, not only do your rejecting the regeneration of the world where Jesus returns to reign for 1000 years (in your profile), but you also worship a false Christ who irresistibly saves like Calvinists except you believe everyone is forced into salvation like robots. That won't do at all.

Your issue was that some have not heard of Christ. That's not a problem, for God provides sufficient grace to all whether common grace or special grace through the gospel. For example, someone on a remote island rejects the idols of those worshiped by the people on the island, but he does believe in the God of the mountains and the stars, so he would accept the Lord Jesus when presented to him in the future and so would he be saved.

Adam would not be saved even if Jesus was presented before him, because he would still not eat of the tree of life under any circumstances. He went independent or "rogue" if I can use that term. Adam locked himself out of the Garden and never returned to God like Abel his son did. Just like Satan and the fallen angels will never repent. King Solomon was saved. You said "when there is no name under heaven but Jesus to save them?" Why isn't Jesus good enough for you to save them? You're weird. You have a weird faith and weird Christ you worship. All things sum up in Christ even that remote island and all the people on it. Praise the Lord!