Tribulation the Great of the Past 20 Centuries Getting Closer to First Rapture

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Originally Posted by Tractor1

These before the throne are the tribulation saints which have been martyred (Rev. 7:13-14) for their testimony of Jesus and the Word of God (Rev. 20:4). They have no part in the Church, and will be resurrected into the millennial kingdom at Christ's return (1 Cor. 15:23-24).

Your theology is all over the map. When Scriptures concerning Israel, the nations, and the Church are co-mingled nothing but confusion results.

In Christ,
Tracey

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Christ's return begins with His parousia at the beginning of the last week, not the end of it. Your theology is all over the map, yes. You ought not to comingle Israel, the nations and the Church, but keep them separate for God does.

Rev. 7:13-14 doesn't say the Tribulation saints for the Tribulation has yet to follow in the Trumpets which begins in Rev. 8. Moreover Rev. 20:4 doesn't include just those martyred in the Tribulation, for those that shall reign will be from all previous dispensations as indicated in verse 4. And of course they are the Church, included in such categories. How strange to exclude the Church.

Your confusion can easily be solved by understand the term Great Tribulation. The phrase “the great tribulation” is not the Great Tribulation of three years and half duration. The reasons are as follows.

(1) At the earliest, the Great Tribulation should commence at the sounding of the “woe” trumpets, the first of which is the fifth (8:13, 9:1a). Yet in 7:9 is an intimation of a rapture having taken place before the seventh seal. Some of these people must have arrived at the throne without passing through the time of the “woe” trumpets.

(2) The Great Tribulation cannot begin before Satan is cast down to earth. Satan will be cast down at the sounding of the fifth trumpet (9:1); and before the horrible situation of the 42 months prevails on earth (13:5), the man child is already raptured to the throne (12:5). Though this man child may not include all the people referred to in 7:9, nonetheless we dare say that it embraces a part of that great multitude.

(3) As soon as the seventh bowl is poured, the kingdom arrives. During the kingdom age we do not see the temple in heaven, instead we see the temple on earth as described in Ezekiel. Who will have the time and opportunity to serve God during the Great Tribulation? Yet in 7:15 clearly states that God’s servants serve Him day and night.

(4) There cannot be so many people saved at Great Tribulation. Since the great multitude mentioned in 7:9 is said to have come out of the great tribulation (7:14), this great tribulation must be different from that which comes at the fifth and sixth trumpets.

(5) According to 11:1, there are those who worship in the temple of God in heaven. Aside from the people cited in 7:9, where can there be found any who worship God in heaven? For at that time the Great Tribulation as predicted in the book of Revelation has yet to begin. In the new heaven and new earth, no temple is seen (21:22) because the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are the temple thereof. (God and the Lamb form the center of the new city. Following the mentioning of the temple of God in 3:12 are found the words “he shall go out thence no more”, for the simple reason that God and the Lamb are the temple in the new heaven and new earth.)

(6) The Bible expressly says that there are believers who do not pass through the Great Tribulation (for example, Luke 21:36 and Rev. 3:10).

(7) Suppose these people mentioned in 7:9 did in fact pass through the Great Tribulation of three and a half years; then they must have died at the time when the temple is trodden underfoot by the nations. But according to what is given in 11:2 it is impossible to include the church therein. So how can it be held that the multitude cited in 7:9 comes out of the Great Tribulation of three and a half years?

(8) The Great Tribulation of three years and a half spoken of in Revelation is especially related to the Jews. Both Daniel 12:1 – “And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and that time thy people shall be delivered . . . “ – and Matthew 24:16-18 depict particularly the situation of the Jewish people. God’s primary purpose is to make use of the Great Tribulation to deal with the Jews. “The time of Jacob’s trouble” spoken of in Jeremiah 30:7 manifestly points to the Jews. But in the book of Revelation reference is made to the subject of tribulation several times in connection with the church, such as in 1:9 and 2:9-10,13.

According to John 16:33 tribulation seems to be the earthly portion of the church for she must pass through a prolonged duration of sufferings.

Accordingly, this tribulation may also be described in the same way as Revelation 7:14 itself literally does in the Greek original, namely: “the tribulation the great”.

The great tribulation cited in Revelation 2:22 is very different from that of 7.14, nor is it the same as that of the three and a half years mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. (The words “through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God” in Acts 14:22 has reference to the common experience those who enter the kingdom of God will share on earth.)

“And they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the lamb” (7:14b). “Robes” is in plural number, and these robes signify righteousnesses, even the righteousnesses of the saints (the church). They do not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as our righteousness. Indeed, the robe (singular) is righteousness (Is. 61:10), and it is the Lord himself (Jer. 23:6), for Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30). We are clothed with Him as we come before God. But this righteousness has no need to be cleansed by the blood.

So you see those who are raptured at Revelation 7: before the throne are raptured because of their works, their readiness, their watchfulness, their abiding in the word of His patience and keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7.

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Confusion reigns! The translation and resurrection of the Church is part of its salvation provided by grace and is a reward only in the sense that it's a fruit of faith in Christ. To accept a works or merit principle for this aspect of salvation undermines the whole concept of justification by faith through grace.

In Christ,
Tracey

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The translation and resurrection of the Church is part of its salvation provided by grace and is a reward before the Tribulation as a readiness of firstfruits for those who are watchful an prayerful before the later harvest and condition set forth to be accounted as worthy to be received to the throne beforehand which is based on works so do be aware of this, for to reject abiding in God's works and keeping the conduct of Matthew 5-7 will certainly have dire consequences in loss of rewards to reign with Christ in the millennium. This undermines the whole justification by faith through grace an does not flow from the cross of Christ's forgiveness through the precious blood and co-death. To teach there is no consequences to sin or for being unwatchful and unprayerful is to find oneself in the Tribulation not realizing it and possibly to be overcome and so confusion remains.

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Not true! Scripture plainly teaches that all believers are included in the translation. In (1 Cor. 15:51) Paul says that "we shall all be changed," and (1 Thes. 4:13-17) says those involved are the ones who are "in Christ" whether living or dead. Your position divides the body of Christ which God has gone to great lengths to create. The vital, organic union which exists between Christ and believers can't be broken. While your position would certainly encourage Christians to live holy lives it simply doesn't line up with the truths of Scripture dealing with salvation, the Church, resurrection, and the rewarding of believers.

In Christ,
Tracey

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What's not true? That I said all believers are included in the translation? I did say all believers are included in the translation. We shall all be changed, but the timing of that change will not be the same in the consummation of this age of the last week. To say that the body of Christ is divided because of the timing of the rapture not being the same over the 7 year period is to accuse the body of Christ already since some have already died, the Lord is in heaven, there are still remain some on earth and some believers are yet to be born. Even Enoch and Elijah were raptured and some came out of their graves at Matt. 27:52.

In order to round out your theory you will also have to do away somehow with the condition God has stipulated to be received to the throne before the Tribulation. Thus, you have a great many problems to conteract the Word of God. So therein lies your problem in that the fruit you agrees is correct, but then you turn around and say it doesn't line up with the Word of God, but provide no evidence that supports your case. Either what you think is the Word is not or you are presently unable to substantiate your beliefs with proper reasoning by the Holy Spirit.

How valuable were Jesus's words when he said observe their fruit, and would Satan cast out his own demons? Would a believer following after the prophets teach something else?

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Those who've died in Christ have yet to receive their glorified bodies. They'll receive them just prior to the living saints at the translation (1 Thes. 4:13-17). Regarding your assertion that God has stipulations for being received before the throne, I'm unaware of any that pertain to the Church other than the necessity of being placed into the Body by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).

In Christ,
Tracey

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Since Revelation 7:9 says before the throne, now you know the conditional rapture before the Tribulation is before the throne. I am not aware of anywhere in 1 Cor 12:13 where it says anything about the throne.

Some argue that according to I Thess. 4:15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” by saying the dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation.

The rapture before the Tribulation would take place before the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice?

Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left”.

Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition?

Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth.