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Churchwork
We already have the rest which is in Christ: "I give you rest" (Matt. 11.28) which the Sabbath points to so no longer is the Sabbath kept for those who are in Christ.
Ok, if we already have the "rest" as you assert, then why are we still cursed to work and labor for our food, a curse that has existed since the Fall?
Also, why does Hebrews say there "yet remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God?"
You write a good letter, but I am afraid you didn't address any other of the other points I was looking for a response to in my previous post.
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We don't need a specific day of the week.
That is correct, we don't need it for salvation, because it never was required for salvation. But use this as justification for forcing employees to work 7 days a week or they will lose their jobs, and you have a different matter on your hands.
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Ceremonial laws, though moral, were for just the Jewish people under the Old Covenant.
All the Torah was given to everyone, all mankind, including the Covenant. As it is written:
Hosea 6:7
Like Adam, they (Israel) have broken the covenant— they were unfaithful to me there.
and:
Deuteronomy 29:14-15
I am making this covenant, with its oath, not only with you 15 who are standing here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God with but also with those who are not here today.
Those "not here today" ontologically includes everyone in the world, including Adam. Thus according to this passage, the covenant God made with Israel, is for everyone. After all, by what standard are the nations judged, by what standard are sinners condemned? The Torah. The Covenant.
Guess what? As sinners, we break the covenant! This is the old covenant because when God renews his covenant with us when we come to Messiah, He keeps it perfectly for us, and this he calls the new covenant.
We know this is true, because the same content of the covenant is kept: the Torah as of the new covenant Jeremiah writes:
Jeremiah 31:33
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Their fathers "broke" the covenant God made with them, even though he is "faithful." This is the only difference between the two covenants in the Jeremiah passage - all else is the same. If we are honest with the text and stick to the text alone and not insert our own bias, this is in fact what we see: is that the old covenant was broken, but the new covenant is kept. That is the only difference: one broken, the other kept. The content, the Torah, remains the same!
How is this possible? Well, let's look at the Hebrew word for new covenant used by Jeremiah: brit chadasha. "Brit" means Covenant. Chadasha means "renewed" as it also comes from the same Hebrew root word "chadash" from which "Rosh Chodesh" comes from - "Rosh" meaning "head" and "Chodesh" meaning Moon. The head of the moon - the "new moon" or the beginning of the month. The concept is clear: when ever we have a "New Moon" do we have a totally absolutely different and brand-new "new" Moon, or is it the same Moon "renewed" in its cyle, with the same features as last month's Moon? So too the "brit chadasha" is renewed, the content is the same, but once it is broken by our sinful nature, God then renews it and gives it to us through Messiah who himself keeps it perfectly.
There is so much more to understanding what the "old covenant" and "new covenant" is, but it might help you to understand that they are states of being, and not actions. "Old covenant" whenever it is referred to, is also called "old nature," "old man," etc, and refers to the unregenerate, unrepentant man who can't help but sin and be condemned by the curse of the law. "New covenant," "new nature" always refers to the regenerate, repentant man that keeps the covenant through Messiah rather than through themselves, their obedience meaning nothing, but Messiah's obedience meaning everything. Do you agree, or do you want me to post scripture concerning all of this?
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Just as there are no more ceremonial animal sacrifices because Jesus died on the cross, so too there is no more ceremonial rest of the Sabbath because the Holy Spirit now indwells the believer who is our rest everyday when the veil was rent.
Which if this were so, then why must we still labor and toil for our food? Obviously we have not entered that "rest." Jesus himself said "come to me, and I will give you rest." He doesn't tell us when, yet it can be assured that have it, just as much as God is faithful to bring about our resurrection to eteneral life at the End of the Age!
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Therefore, no one is justified by the works of the law, "because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin" (3.20).
I hope you understand that I am not at all talking about justification. We only have that through Messiah and his work.
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"But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets" (3.21). Praise and thank God, there is a "but now". Now is there a salvation.
This of course, I hope you do see, means that there is in fact a righteousness that is in fact part of the law, otherwise how can he write "now apart from the law a righteousness of God"?
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During the old dispensation the Lord has yet to die and sin has not been taken away, so God forbears with men.
I respectfully disagree. Is not Jesus called "the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world?" And does not sin still exist, only to be cast with death into hell at the End of the Age? So if anything, if Christ is the Lamb Slain Before the Foundation of the World, then the Torah was given in our current dispensation, and if Sin still exists, we are still in the dispensation when Sin is defined by the Torah. Either way, declaring a universal dispensation one way or another is practically impossible given these facts, and it would probably be more biblical to say that there is no new dispensation except when we as individuals transition from sinner to saint, from unregenerate to regenerate, from old covenant to new covenant, by faith in Messiah - a faith that even Abraham, Moses, and King David had (after all, they are all counted in the hall of faith in Hebrews 11, unless you say there are two kinds of faith or two gospels, they were saved by the same faith in Messiah just as we are! So then, when the Torah is given to them after that fact, then we should be asking what is the Torah for them?).
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Today God justifies us, not just forbears with us. To be justified means more than being forgiven or not reckoned as sinful; it means being counted as righteous. And God gives us this righteousness in Christ Jesus. Because of the death and resurrection of Christ, we come into possession of this righteousness. For this reason, says Paul, "we reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law" (v.28). Still, being afraid that some people may assume from this that faith abrogates the law, Paul immediately adds, "God forbid".
Amen!
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How, then, do we establish the law through faith? The law has made only two demands: (1) the law commands all to do good, and (2) the law penalizes those who do not do good. The law must be fulfilled in either of them. If you do not keep the law, you will suffer the penalty of the law. If you fail to establish the law by observing it, you will have to take its penalty to establish it. Apart from the Lord there is not a single person who can keep the law. Even Moses the lawgiver has not wholly kept it. The law demands for all who do not keep it to die. We confess that we have not kept the law and that we have sinned, but we declare that we have already died. Since in Christ we have already been judged and cursed by the law, we have not destroyed the law, but rather, that through faith we have established it. Although we are unable to establish the law by keeping it and therefore we must die, thank God, we have already died in Christ! "But of him [God] are ye in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor. 1.30). It is God who puts us in Christ. When Christ died, we too have died in His death. Consequently, faith has not destroyed the law but instead has established it.
That is correct. Even Paul says that we have put on the clothing of Christ. We take on his identity, his righteousness, his sanctification. But neither does this mean that our behavior automatically conforms. Our behavior, and his sanctification are two entirely different things.
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Why are believers not under law?
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Believers are not under law because (1) they have already died, and (2) they have also been resurrected. This is proven by Romans 7.1-6. Paul chooses the parable of a woman with her husband. At the outset, let us determine who is the "husband" in this passage. Some say the husband is the law, while others say the husband is our flesh. These two schools of opinion have their respective reasons. By reading the passage carefully we may see that actually both thoughts are included. In verse 2 we are shown first that the husband is the law, but then it also shows us that the husband is different from the law. So the husband in this passage means either the law or the flesh. Should the husband represent merely the law then the clause, "if the husband die", will mean "if the law die". But how can the law die? For this reason, we conclude that the husband here may point to either the flesh or the law.
Romans 7:1
Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law
Question, why does Paul preface this, speaking to Romans if in fact he is making the case that they aren't to bother with the law at all? Since Paul says this, it is very clear then that one can not understand what Paul is saying without first knowing and understanding the law! :)
In fact, one should ask this very obvious question: if Paul is writing to "men who know the Torah," then how can anyone understand what he writes in Romans without first knowing the Torah? At best such a person would only see very dimly what he's talking about, and at worst their conclusions could wind up contradicting the very Torah he is teaching from. Do you see the danger in removing the foundation of truth from the teaching and practice of the believers of God in Christ? Romans 7 is my favorite passage of all of Paul's writings. Let's go on:
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Before one believes in the Lord he is bound by the law. How can he be delivered? Only through death. If he dies he is freed. Once he dies he is freed from the law. God has already condemned sin in the flesh of Christ. Since we have died in Christ we are freed from the law.
I know what you mean by this, and I fully agree. Yet symantically speaking, we are not freed from the law - we are freed from the curse of the law. The law just is. It always exists as a standard for right and wrong, no matter if you stay a sinner or become a believer. Do you agree?
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You are like a woman, and your flesh is like the husband. As you die you are freed from the flesh. The most the law can demand is death. No matter how many sins a criminal has committed, the law can at the most condemn him to but one death. Once he dies the case is concluded. When we die we are freed from the law.
Again, I know what you mean by this, and I fully agree. We are freed from the curse of the law. The standard for right and wrong, however, does not change.
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On the other hand, it is said that "if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband". This terminates your relationship with the law.
Um, it does not say that. Not at all. This terminates your relationship to the husband.
When comparing the analogy Paul gives with the explanation Paul gives, in Romans 7, ask yourself these questions when doing the comparison:
1. Who dies.
Analogy: The first husband.
Explanation: "my brothers, you also died to the law"
2. Who remains?
Analogy: the wife.
Explanation: "the law" (for you died to it, remember?)
3. Who lives to the wife after the first husband dies?
Analogy: the second husband.
Explanation: "you belong... to him who was raised from the dead"
4. If the second husband marries the same wife of the first husband, then who is this wife he is married to, if not the same wife which the first husband died to?
Analogy: the wife.
Explanation: "the law," is also called "him who was raised from the dead"
To stay consistent with the analogy to the explanation, one can only conclude that Paul is saying that the wife, the Torah that condemned the sinner, is the same wife, now the Messiah, that the rengerated saint belongs to.
How is this so? Well, is it not written that Jesus is the "Word of God made flesh?" The Living Torah, so to speak? :) Is it not by his standard of living that sinners are condemened for not doing it, and is it not by his standard of living that saints are justified by Jesus' doing of it?
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The things of the law speak to those who are under the law. Since we Christians are not under law, these things of the law do not speak to us.
If after being brought to Jesus by the teaching of the Torah, then with Jesus as the "Word of God made flesh" how much more so the things of the Torah, the Word of God, the law, speaks to us now as saints, as we seek to know Him even more.
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Why does Paul write the Galatian letter after he has written his letter to the Romans?
Galatians had to have been written before Acts 15, otherwise it could have just referenced the Council's decision, but it fails to do so in all 5 of its chapters. Also we know Romans was written after Acts 22 when Paul is arrested and afterwards is sent to Rome. I am not sure where you get that Galatians was written after Romans.
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Romans informs us that no sinner can be justified by keeping the law; Galatians instructs us that no saint may be sanctified by works of the law.
Santification means "set apart" which in Hebrew is "kadosh" which means "holy." Now, granted we are made holy, set-apart, by our faith in Messiah - after all, those who do not have faith in Messiah, are not like us, for we are set apart by our faith in Messiah. Yet it is symantically impossible to say that one is not set-apart if they keep God's commandments, for keeping God's commandments is the very act of separation from the world. For example, by choosing to help our neighbor's overburdned donkey, we are doing something the world does not do. Likewise when we don't eat pork, by definition we are separated from those who do. So it is symantically incorrect to say that if one keeps any of God's commandments, that they are not sanctifying themselves unto God.
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Not only a sinner cannot be saved by works, even a saint cannot be sanctified by works. Just as one begins in grace, so he shall be perfected through grace. How can he who is justified by faith ever imagine himself to be sanctified by keeping the law?
You are confusing justification with sanctification at this point. To be justified means to be identified in the righteousness that is Christ's, so that no charge of sinfulness can be held accounted to you. To be sanctified simply means to be set-apart, that is, to be sealed with the Spirit of God so that at the end of the Age the saints go on to eternal life, and the sinners go on to damnation.
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If justification is by the Holy Spirit, sanctification must also be by the Holy Spirit.
That is absolutely correct. One can not be saved without the Spirit of God, and one not keep a commandment of God without the Spirit of God. That is why I disagree with your position that one who keeps the Sabbath is serving the devil (but of course you only meant that one who keeps the Sabbath at the expense of the suffering and death of others, to which I responded very clearly that the Torah commands us to choose life, and that one would in fact be breaking the Sabbath if they refused to save or life or alleviate suffering on the Sabbath).
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Why is it forbidden to weave together wool and linen (Deut. 22.11)? Because wool is obtained through the shedding of blood, whereas linen comes from man’s planting.
Interesting application, however the reason we are commanded not to wear clothing with wool and linen woven together is because the High Priest alone wears cloathing made of wool and linen weaved together. We are commanded not to wear it, so that the High Priest alone is wearing it, and thus is sanctified, set-apart, different, totally unique, from everyone else in even his clothing. He is made holy in this instance by our obedience to the commandment to not wear what he wears, in this case, clothing made of wool and linen mixed together. Now that is not to say your allegorical application and understanding of wool and linen doesn't apply. I'm just pointing out the obvious reason why it was prohibited to everyone else but the High Priest, and using that as proof that our actions of obedience cause separation with the world. (Also as a side note, I used to be a shepherd of real sheep, and wool is sheared from sheep like one cuts hair. The sheep is very much alive, pretty naked, but still very much alive, after shearing their wool off. If you don't cut them accidentally in the process of cutting their wool off, they won't bleed, so I am not sure where you get that wool is obtained from the shedding of blood - are you sure you're not confusing that with cow hides which does require shedding blood?).
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What is meant by not being under law? Not to be under law does not mean lawlessness. The Bible says: "Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace" (Rom. 6.14). You are not under law, because you are under grace. Being under grace, you will not be ruled by sin. We need to pay special attention to this word. Not to be under law does not sanction licentiousness; it only means that sin shall not have dominion over you.
To not be "under law" (notice many translators erroneously insert "the" to make it say under THE law) means to be under a curse, specifically the curse of the law, as it is written:
Deuteronomy 21:23
anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse.
Obviously one who is hung on a tree is dead. Therefore death is the curse. One who is "under law" is one who has the expectation of death because they are under the curse of the law. Another way of saying this, is that one who is "under law" is one who is unregenerate, a sinner, condemned by the law. It is a state of being, not an action. Obviously, one hanging on a tree isn't doing anything. They are dead. Thus it is a state of being, and it is a state of being to be "under law."
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What is meant by being under grace? "If it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace" (Rom. 11.6). To be under grace simply means you need not have your own works. What then is meant by being under law? It means you yourself should do the works even though the more you work the worse you become.
Which by definition being "under law" is a state of being, and is not what one does. Being under law requires that you do something in order to not be condemend by it, but the state of being "under law" is still in fact only a state of being. One could be hanging dead from a tree, remember? Such a person can't do anything, nor at that point is anything required of them. Thus to be under law is to be under the curse of the law, which is a state of being.
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Being under grace means that the Lord Jesus is doing all; being under law is, you yourself doing all.
"You yourself doing all" is what it looks like when one is "under law," but that is not what "under law" is. "Under law" is a state of being. In fact, most people I know that are "under law" (unregenerate sinners) don't even try keeping it, at all, and some blatantly make the point to violate as much of it as they can, period.
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In being under grace, God so works in you that sin shall have no more dominion over you; in being under law, you are under the dominion of sin because you cannot overcome it. If you are under grace, the grace of God will work in you. Is sin, then, any match for God’s grace? Certainly not.
You are absolutely correct here. :)
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As the Lord Jesus has died for you on the cross, even so today He lives in you. As He has borne your sins on the cross, so now He dwells in you to give you victory over sin. The law is only God’s commandment; but grace is the power of God. The law commands you to do, but grace gives you the power to do it. Not to be under law but to be under grace means the risen Christ lives in you and causes you to overcome.
Beautifully stated!
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Why is Christ the end of the law? This is because Christ has satisfied all the demands of the law laid upon men.
In Romans 10:4, the Greek word "teleos" translated as "end" in some of your bibles, is unfortunately is a translator bias when translated as "end". It is better translated as "goal" as in "Christ is the goal of the Torah..." for "teleos" is where we get the same root for "telescope," or "telephone." Much like we view a planet through a telescope, or talk to a person over a telephone - just because we are using the telescope, or the telephone, doesn't mean the object it is bring us to ceases to exist (nor does the instrument we are using cease to exist). On the contrary, the object is seen better or heard better with more clarity than without the use of the telescope or telephone. So too the Messiah is the goal of the Torah. The Torah reveals the Messiah and we see him clearer, as we learn what the Torah teaches about the Messiah, we therefore will learn from its very pages what we must do to earn his righteousness by what he does, and not what we do. The Torah doesn't cease in its function to reveal who the Messiah is and what he does, when we become believers. Yes we have Messiah, but because the Messiah is the Word of God made flesh, we also learn more about Him when we read the Torah.
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We must see first of all that Christ in His life sums up the law. Leaving totally aside the aspect of the Lord Jesus as God, let us dwell for a moment on the aspect of His being man. There is only one human being in the whole world who has kept the law completely—and that person is the Lord Jesus. There is none other before Him nor any other after Him. He alone possesses the qualification. He is therefore the sum of the law.
For sake of fact, Jesus didn't keep all the Torah. He couldn't do the commandments God gave for only women to do, since he is not a woman, nor could he even keep the commandments God gave the Levites to do since he was not a Levite. But he perfectly kept all that applied to him.
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Secondly, the death of Christ concludes the law.
It does not conclude the law, it pays the penalty the law demands - a penalty he took upon himself when he, the Righteous One was hung on a tree, made into a curse on our behalf (made into the state of being as one condemned by the law, for us). It is because the law works to this very day, that we are free from the concequence of transgressing it, which he paid for on our behalf. The curse, the state of being in opposition to Torah and thus its state of condemnation, was what died - and this only when we identify with him in his death, not before, and not the Torah itself. The curse is very much alive against those who do not yet identify in the death of Messiah. The Torah continues to exist, its curse is ended for us, but that is because the Torah still works to condemn the curse that hung on a tree! Just like our sinful natures die when we have faith in Jesus, our bodies still live, but not us living, but Christ - the Word of God made flesh (the Living Torah) - living in us continues to live forever, Amen!
For if the law is concluded, then Christ, who is the Word of God made flesh, is concluded. Yet we don't say Christ is concluded, do we? Of course not. So in the same way Christ continues to live in our sinful bodies, even after our sinful nature (state of being in condemnation) is what dies when we come to faith in Christ.
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"End" means that which is "final". What can be added after the final thing has been reached? What more can be done afterward?
What does one do with the planet they see through the telescope, or the person they talk to on the telephone? They learn about it, and communicate to them.
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Consequently, let every Christian give praise to God, knowing that Christ has already concluded the law and you need not keep the Sabbath.
One never needed to keep the Sabbath for justification. But of course by keeping the Sabbath, one's behavior is very much sepearted from all others who do not keep the Sabbath. Agreed?
