Overassuming Nature of Pretribulation Rapture Onlyists

Re: DerrickthePinecone
http://www.youtube.com/user/DerrickthePinecone

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Originally Posted by DerrickthePinecone

Christians cannot be left on earth during the whole tribulation or even the first half, because we'd know the exact date of the rapture, contradicting scripture.

Where does Scripture say you can't know the day of the rapture when you come near to it for those who are spiritually discerning? My guess is Sept. 14, 2015 (feast of trumpets-the first rapture) to August 7, 2022 (day after Av 9 a Sabbath day in 2022, when the first and second temple were destroyed and when Israel fled in 135 AD) is the 2,520 days of the Tribulation. The last trumpet resurrection occurs on the first day of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11.15) then follows the 24 months of the last trumpet when the bowls of wrath are poured. We cannot be absolutely certain when the first rapture is or even necessarily when the 7th trumpet rapture takes place, but we can know when Jesus returns in Person. It will be exactly 2,520 days (7 x 360) from the first rapture (according to readiness).

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If the post-tribulationists or mid-tribulationists were correct, we would have a seven year or three & one half year notification before the rapture... Once again we see that it's not until after the last Gentile becomes a Christian that God resumes his program with the nation of Israel.

The pre-wrath resurrection and rapture and the first rapture are not mutually exclusive, since the first rapture is according to readiness, and the last trumpet resurrection and rapture is the completion (with possible gleaning raptures during the last 24 months). Why argue against posttrib and midtrib when that was not the position I put forth in our youtube discussion? To argue against me you would have to disprove that the first rapture is not conditional and overturn Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, and Rev. 12.5 in comparison to Rev. 7.9. The reason why God returns to His old covenant promise with Israel is because He doesn't break His promise! Israel will be the center of all nations but first must go through Jacob's trouble. The Holy Spirit has the power to save people during the Tribulation. Satan knows his time is short because of the first rapture. The first rapture is the Church reaching its pinnacle with a few overcomer believers (approximately 1/7th of the Church alive at the time).

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Another reason: We don't know the day of the rapture. We will not know the date, but we are told to watch & know the general time of the end. There's no warning for the rapture, as you know.

Sure there is a warning, for when the fig tree is showing its leaves it won't be more than one jubilee till the commencement of Daniel's last seven. There is the sign in heaven (Matt. 24.30)--the planets of our solar system formed the shape of a cross in 1999. There are 17,640 days from June 7, 1967 when Israel took over Jerusalem, to Sept. 23, 2015, the Day of Atonement which ushers in the 50th year, the year of Jubilee. There is the Total Lunar Tetrad 2014/15 that falls on Passover and Feast of Tabernacles, and the last time that occurred was 1949/50 (Israel became a nation again), 1967/68 (Israel entered Jerusalem). This is the 8th time it will happen since Christ (8 is the number for the millennial kingdom). There are several other indicators such as the 3rd Temple completed within the first year of the Tribulation (we have yet to see this take place yet). There is the Malachy prophecy and two Jewish prophecies (about the second rebuilding of a synagogue March 15, 2010 and the Jewish prophecy of Jubilees pointing to 1917, 1967 and 2015/17). Let us be watchful and prayerful because we do not know the day or the hour doesn't mean we will always not know. Some can know who are spiritually discerning. But for most they will not know so they need to be watchful and prayerful to be accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

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However, Dan 9:27 tells us that the 2nd coming is seven years AFTER the Antichrist makes his covenant with Israel & 3-1/2 yrs after he breaks the covenant. Anthr reason: The fulness of the Gentiles! After discussing the analogy of the good olive tree & the wild olive tree, Paul reveals the mystery in Rom 11:25-26, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved." Of course there're some Jews mixed in, for there's no difference within the present Church. Thus the filling of the Church must be completed prior to rebuilding of the temple, which is prior to the midpoint of the tribulation (Dan 9:27 & 2Thess2:4).

In these verses there is nothing that stipulates the whole church has to be raptured before the Tribulation. The fullness of the Gentiles is inclusive of the first rapture, the martyred saints during the Tribulation who are raptured 3.5 days after they go to rest, then the 7th trumpet rapture and resurrection and any gleanings during the 24 months, even possibly raptures to the 1290th day (judgment) and to the 1335th day (setting up Israel as the center of all nations). We should not rule this out unless valid reason is given.

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Once God is through calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles, He'll return His attention back to Israel, rebuildng the temple. Prior to this, the believers in this age must be removed from the scene, being caught up into heaven.

The 3rd Temple begins construction prior to the start of the Tribulation and is completed with 2300 days left to the Tribulation. When Jesus returns in Person He makes any necessary adjustments for the Temple to suit His dwelling there.

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Another reason: The tabernacle of David: Referring to Peter's visit to the house of Cornelius, James sd, "God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. & to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, & will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down..." (Acts 15:14-16). After what? After God takes out of the Gentiles "a people for his name" (Christians).

This taking out is not the same as rapture, for nobody was raptured at that point. It is referring to salvation for Gentiles taken out of the world, no longer belonging to the world. As to time line this fits perfectly with a first rapture according to readiness, then through the Tribulation more being saved and the Temple being completed, then when Jesus returns in Person He makes any necessary adjustments to the Temple for His dwelling. This is the fullness of the Gentiles.

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Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8 that if anyone "preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Thus we know that this present predominantly Gentile church must be removed to allow the worldwide preaching of the gospel of the kingdom that Paul did not preach to us.

The gospel of of the kingdom is a gospel of judgment upon the nations that emphasizes judgment, it is not mutually exclusive of the gospel of salvation for the salvation of souls during tribulation the great (the past 20 centuries) the during the Tribulation (Daniel's last seven). How strange those during the Tribulation could not be saved or that there was no rapture for them like there is for the Two Witnesses, Enoch and Elijah.

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Another reason: Jesus sd in Matt 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; & then shall the end come." The gospel of the kingdom was "...Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt 4:17). But, Paul preached the gospel of grace which is: Jesus Christ, the Son of God, freely gave His life as a sacrifice for our sins. He was crucified, buried, & rose from the dead on the third day (1 Cor 15:1-4).

The gospel of the kingdom is gospel of salvation. You can't divorce the two. For 2000 years the kingdom at hand has been with us and in us who are saved. The phrase gospel of the kingdom is just emphasizing a different viewpoint of the gospel of salvation: that is, the millennial reign of Christ with His overcomers when He returns we have a foretaste of now.

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My friend, pre-trib makes more sense. There are many reasons why the true Christians of this dispensation cannot be on the earth during the tribulation! One has to understand the language that was being used during that time. There are many reasons why there will be a pre-trib rapture, my friend. One reason is because Israel is the focus of the end times, not the present church: During the Church age there are three classes of people: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church (1 Cor. 10:32)... Within the Church, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. During the tribulation however, God's focus will be on the nation of Israel. God will deal with Israel as Gabriel said in Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks (of years) are determined upon thy people..." That is, Daniel's people, Israel.

There are no reasons to think the whole Church is raptured before the Tribulation though many reasons to show why not, for only those who keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10). Don't create a legalism: you've made a rule for yourself that says God can't treat both the Church and Israel at the same time. You have avoided dealing with the proof texts of Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 an Rev. 12.5 along with 7.9). Study this: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_7.htm

The danger you face is that when a couple million are raptured at the first rapture before the commencement of the Tribulation, you will accuse the brethren day and night according Rev. 12.10, because you assumed pridefully if it was the Tribulation you would have been received up as well and did not have to go through the time of testing because you were still like a balloon tied down to the world or lying on a bed of fornication. Many Christians still love the world. Who is to say then whether you will take the mark of the beast or even have the discernment to know what it is since you couldn't even recognize you were in the Tribulation when it is occuring? I would not want to be in your shoes.

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As discussed under the amillennial topic, the first 69 weeks have passed and one remains. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are all chosen from the people of Israel, and their tribes are listed... In 11:7-8 the 2 witnesses are martyred in Jerusalem. In Rev 12:6, the woman that flees into the wilderness for 1260 days represents Israel in the great tribulation. These are just a few reasons we know Israel is at the center of God's plan. The present, predominantly Gentile church & the doctrines concerning it were a mystery unknown to the Jews throughout the first 69 weeks. We therefore must be removed prior to the beginning of 70th week, which is determined upon nation of Israel (Dan. 9:24)

Israel is at the center of God's plan to be the center of all nation. There is no reason why the Church has to be removed because of Israel's blindness. The reason why some are received up is because they are ready; whereas those who are not though saved must pass through the time of testing. The burden of the proof still remains on you. You must prove your claim, yet still have not presented any challenge to Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 and 12.5 with 7.9.

I have several dozen more reasons why the whole church is not raptured before the Tribulatio, but only a small remnant shall be who overcometh and who are alive at the time of the start of the Tribulation (possibly including martyrs from the past 20 centuries as well). Amen.

For many more reasons why the whole church can't be raptured before the Tribulation: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm

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Originally Posted by DerrickthePinecone

Again, those that misunderstand why the pre-tribulation rapture makes the most sense is for the sole fact that they're misunderstanding the LANGUAGE that is being used during the Kingdom church versus the now-time of Grace--when one has understood the difference, then the scriptures become more clear, and one's eyes are opened to what is being said.

Sounds vague and coy and unexplained by you. You would need to be more specific to explain yourself and your phraseology why the "now-time of Grace" is not allowed to exist with the "Kingdom church". In my experience those who are so coy are because they have something unethical they are holding onto so they can't be forthright about it.

“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world...; and then shall the end come” (Matt. 24.14). Pretrib onlyists suggest that the gospel of the kingdom is different from the gospel of grace and that the gospel of the kingdom is only preached during the time when the Lord was on earth and immediately before the Great Tribulation. Since we are saved by the gospel of grace, it is their contention that the gospel of grace need not be preached to the whole world before we are raptured (an evil thought to say the least not to preach the gospel). Thus, the gospel of the kingdom will only be preached again ten or twenty years before the Tribulation. Yet the gospel of the kingdom is the gospel of the kingdom of God, and the gospel of grace is the gospel of the grace of God. According to Acts 20.24-25, “the gospel of the grace of God” spoken of in verse 24 is none other than “the preaching” of “the kingdom” mentioned in verse 25. Also, please note from Acts 1 that the Lord after His resurrection spoke to the disciples “the things concerning the kingdom of God” (v.3).

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The wrath of God: All three premillennial views, post-tribulationists, mid-tribulationists, and pre-tribulationists agree that Christians will not suffer the wrath of God as explained in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. However, the plagues of the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls are on a global scale. Since the church is not appointed to wrath, it cannot be present when these global plagues come upon all those that dwell on the earth. Evidence of the tribulation being the wrath of God can be seen in Revelation 6:16-17 which says, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Other passages on the wrath of God include Revelation 11:16-18, 14:10, 14:19, 15:1, 15:7, 16:1, 16:19, and 19:15.

I believe the in rapture before the Tribulation according to readiness (not the whole Church) and the pre-wrath resurrection and rapture (the bowls are the wrath), so your arguments do not work because they in no way challenge my view. The bowls are encased in the 7th trumpet. The 6 seals are the past 20 centuries. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets. Also it should be noted that even though the Church is still on earth during the Tribulation, in no way does this suggest God's wrath is against them just because they are on earth. Revelation 6.16-17 occurs before the Tribulation takes place for at this time the first trumpet has not been blown yet (8.7ff). God's wrath begins to hurt the earth in the first 4 trumpets (first three and a half years), then intensifies with the the last three trumpets, culminating in the the 7th trumpet which pours the 7 bowls (and 1/3 of the people of the earth die). The 5th trumpet (1st woe) is 5 months, the 6th trumpet (2nd woe) is 13 months and the 7th trumpet (3rd woe) is 24 months. The Bible specifically addresses the bowls as being the wrath. "...pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." (Rev. 16.1)

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Another reason: The Holy Spirit. Paul told the Thessalonians, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let (hinder), until he be taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7). Who do the Thessalonians know that is powerful enough to hold back Satan? This has to be the Holy Spirit. Before the tribulation, God will catch away all Christians (in whom the Holy Spirit dwells) and He will also remove His hand from the powers of evil in this world, making way for the great deception and the kingdom of the Antichrist. The Holy Spirit will begin operating in a manner that is more like Old Testament times, unlike the manner in which He operates today. He will not indwell believers again until Jesus Christ returns at the end of the tribulation, with these two exceptions: He will be the seal on the 144,000 young men of Israel (Revelation 7:1-8), who will be preaching the gospel of the kingdom throughout the world, and He will fill the two witnesses in (Revelation 11:3-4).

The Holy Spirit will go out of believers? How dare you say this? The Holy Spirit permanently indwells believers. Your claim is before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, you assume that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6). The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?

Returning to the Old Testament is a misnomer. Don't think God is going to do that. Rather, He is fulfilling a promise that has never left. We are no longer under the law, but live by the Spirit of the law. The old can never substitute for the new.

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Another reason: Believers pleading for vengeance. The slain saints of the tribulation plead for vengeance in Revelation 6:10, "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" Contrast this with the martyr Stephen's last words: "... Lord, lay not this sin to their charge ..." (Acts 7:60). This attitude of vengeance is not a characteristic of those indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Unlike the believers today, these Revelation 6 believers are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Besides, Christians who have studied God's Word would not have to ask "How long?" They would already know!

The saints under the altar are those who have been martyred making this plea to God and are told to "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6.11) because there will be more believers martyred during the Tribulation. They are raptured before the Tribulation and given white robes. Revelation 6 takes place before the Tribulation commences. The evil spirit says a person doesn't have the Holy Spirit in them after they have been saved. Don't give into that lie. The Holy Spirit indwells the eternal new spirit given to all believers permanently which can never be lost--once-saved-always-saved. These martyred believers would not already know for they have been asleep all this time awaiting resurrection and rapture. Think about it. A person who died in the 3rd century let's say has gone to soul sleep awaiting resurrection. This particular believer was an overcomer and a martyr so he may be received "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation commences. He is ready to be taken up. How would he know how much time is left? He hasn't been told. As far as he knows it is still the 3rd century and He wakes up to come before the throne. They are having a conversation with God, they ask a reasonable question, and God answers it won't be much longer now. You can't demand upon them to know how much longer. That assumes too much. Once drawing near to the season, one may know, but not those martyrs from previous centuries. For example they had no knowledge of the Grand Cross in 1999 that pertains to the sign in heaven in Matthew 24.30.

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In most cases, the disagreement on end times prophecy is only a symptom. The real source of the differing views is a disagreement over how to rightly divide the Word of God. Understanding the difference between the "kingdom" program for Israel and the "grace" program for us is the key...

You have a problem understanding this word kingdom. Rightly divide the word of the kingdom of God and know God's grace is not mutually exclusive of the kingdom. The kingdom of heaven has 3 aspects and some differences to the kingdom of God. Study those differences to understand: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/KKH.htm

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God

Let us review the things we have already seen previously concerning the kingdom of heaven. After the birth of Christ, there comes one who prepares the way for Him. His name is John, and he proclaims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. The Lord, together with the apostles whom He sends forth, announce the same news. What does it mean? Later on, as noted in chapters 8 and 9, we see that the Lord heals the sick and casts out demons, and that all these are closely related to the nearness of the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5-7 speaks of the nature of the kingdom of heaven: which is, that those who belong to this kingdom are absolutely righteous towards themselves, absolutely gracious towards others, and absolutely pure towards God. In Matthew 10 we learn that the Lord sends out His apostles. And in Matthew 11-12 we see that a great transition begins occurring, as though the kingdom of heaven is now being taken away from the Jews.

Now with regard to the kingdom of heaven found spoken of in Matthew 13, some interpreters have asserted that the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are the kingdom of heaven in mystery. Such an assertion is logically unsound when it is held up against all the things which we have just seen: how that both John and the Lord as well as His disciples proclaim that the kingdom of heaven is at hand, how that the Lord then announces the nature or character of this kingdom, and how after He is rejected by the children of Israel He in the thirteenth chapter is found declaring only the outward boundary of this kingdom (what we see in this age being but the outward appearance). So that chapter 13 does not deal with the character or nature of the kingdom of heaven, for this has already been described in Matthew 5-7.

Some, on the other hand, contend that all who desire to enter the kingdom of heaven mentioned in chapter 13 must possess the character of the kingdom of heaven as laid down in chapters 5-7. This interpretation again is impossible to accept, since in chapter 13 we have presented the tares, the leaven, and so forth as being in the kingdom of heaven. So that this chapter presents to us nothing but the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven.

The kingdom of heaven is not the millennial kingdom; it is the reigning in the millennial kingdom. Let us see that the kingdom of heaven has three different aspects.

(1)An outward appearance, boundary, or scope as is shown to us in Matthew 13.
(2)A spiritual reality, that is to say, a kind of spiritual conduct which is formed as a result of learning righteousness and grace progressively under the authority of God and which is elucidated for us in Matthew 5-7; and
(3)A reigning with Christ in the future millennial kingdom as revealed in the fact of our future reward as told to us in Matthew 5-7.

Accordingly, we must first of all enter into the sphere or boundary of this kingdom of heaven by being sons of the kingdom; then secondly, we need to have the kind of conduct described for us in Matthew 5-7 – which is to have real spiritual conduct; and lastly, as a consequence we may reign with the Lord.

Today there are three different kinds of people:
(1)those who have entered within the sphere of the kingdom of heaven and yet unsaved; these are represented by tares.
(2)those who have been saved and are in the domain of the kingdom of heaven, ye they fail to keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7.
(3) those who are saved and also keep the teaching of Matthew 5-7; they truly overcome, and therefore in the future they shall reign with the Lord in the third stage or aspect of the kingdom of heaven.

A Comparison Between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God

The kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are distinguishable but are not separable. Let us consider in some detail these two descriptive phrases found in Scriptures.
(1)With certain parables Matthew employs the statement “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto . . . “; but Luke uses the words “The kingdom of God is like. . . . “ for the same parables – thus indicating that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are one and the same. Both the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven in these parallel instances refer to the outward domain of the kingdom. On this level, it can be said that the outward appearances of both the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are alike. Parables such as that of the leaven belong to this category.
(2)Yet the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not synonymous with respect to the second aspect of the kingdom of heaven, inasmuch as what is described in Matthew 5-7 speaks of actual overt behavior whereas “the kingdom of God is righteous and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14.17). The one stresses spiritual conduct; the other inner spiritual condition.
(3)Even so, in the third aspect of the kingdom of heaven is again similar to the kingdom of God since both refer to the matter of reigning during the millennial kingdom.

Though the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are similar as regards the first aspect, the kingdom of God covers also the time of which the prophets in the Old Testament speak – for whenever the sovereignty of God is present, His domain is there at the same time. But this characteristic is not applicable to the kingdom of heaven.

With regard to the third aspect, it is true that the kingdom of God is the same as the kingdom of heaven in that both refer to ruling with Christ in the millennium; yet the kingdom of God extends further on into eternity since in eternity God also reigns – but by that time the kingdom of heaven will have passed away. With respect to the third aspect, therefore, the kingdom of God exists longer than the kingdom of heaven.

In certain sense it can be said that the kingdom of God includes the kingdom of heaven, but not vic versa.

So far as the outward official history of the church on earth goes today, there can be said to be the Roman Catholic Church, the national churches, and the private churches. The Roman Catholic Church claims that the entire world is under her domain and that no national church is therefore allowed. The national church such as the Anglican Church asserts that every citizen of the nation belongs to the Church. But due to dissatisfaction with the national churches, there came into being the so-called private churches.

As regards to the outward sphere, as long as people say they are Christians, no one can drive them out of the kingdom of heaven; for the Lord has not promised to weed out the tares today. At communion or the Lord’s Table or the breaking of bread, however, the church may indeed weed out or separate the unsaved and the wicked from the saved ones. So that in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven, such as in a national church, unbelieving people may be included therein, but in the sphere of the believing assembly an unsaved person may be excluded from fellowship. This clarifies the two totally different spheres: that of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven and that of the church. Within the boundary of the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven there may be tares; but within the churches the body of Christ there is only wheat no tares. (The King and the Kingdom of Heaven, CFP white cover, 140-143, by Watchman Nee.)

Notice as before, you continue to avoid the proof verses for the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-41,42; Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 and 12.5 with 7.9)