Is the Tribulation 7 Years Long? Is There a Rapture?
Re: 459triple3
http://www.youtube.com/user/459triple3
Quote:
Originally Posted by 459triple3
You seem to think that the Book of Revelation is in chronological order. That is your point of reference and your major mistake. I do believe in the rapture. I just don't believe in what is being taught as the rapture as seen in the Left Behind Series and other non biblical books or teachings. There is not 7 year tribulation. Produce one scripture that gives one. You can't. The Bible shows Jesus returning and then the elements melting with great heat. The Bible says he is coming in the glory of His Father and every eye shall see Him. How can the wicked continue to live after seeing Christ in His complete glory when the Bible tells us that no man (sinful) can see God and live? Look at the examples that the Bible gives for the time of the end. The flood: did life continue on for the wicked after the flood waters came. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah. After Lot and his family were taken out, did you see life continuing in Sodom for another 7 years? Look at 2 Peter 3:10. The elements melt with fervent heat. The Book of Jeremiah speaks of the great earth quake and the mountains moving lightly. Mountains moving lightly have to do with the earth shaking to the point that mountains fly apart like feathers being blown in the wind. What human life can go on after this happens. I know that it is taught that there is a difference between the rapture and the second coming. The only problem is that this distinction isn't found anywhere in scripture. There is no teaching from the Bible of a "Secret Rapture" where life goes on for another seven years. Study the Word for yourself. Because for you to ask me if I have faith to believe what you wrote, my answer is no. I can't have faith in something that is not scripturally sound. I have complete faith in what the Bible teaches. 7 year tribulation is not a Bible teaching. It is a Jesuit priest's lie.
Just like Genesis 2 gives the details of Genesis 1, Revelation 12 to 19 give the details of 7 to 11. Would Jesus wait 2000 years to open the scroll He is holding? Of course not. He begins the first seal in Revelation 6 immediately upon His death and resurrection. Hence the first seal is Jesus by the cross who has given Satan a deadly wound by the bow that has been shot and without the arrow. Notice the bow with the arrow looks like a cross.
Revelation 7.9 speaks of the saints "before the throne". How else do they get there except by rapture?
The Left Behind Series is wrong because it presumes everyone in the Church is ready at the first rapture. However we know this is not the case because there is a condition given, which obviously not the whole Church keeps. The conditional statements are seen in Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 to come "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation commences. Don't you ask yourself who those are in Rev. 11.15 and and 15.2 that are in heaven? Don't you ask yourself who those are in Rev. 11.1-2 who are in the Temple that is without the court which is the Temple in Heaven?
If no man can see Jesus and live, then everyone would physically die instantly when Jesus spent three years with the disciples, died on the cross and was seen for 40 days. That no man can see the Father is not the same thing. No man can see the Father who is spirit, but the 2nd Person of the Trinity came in the flesh so we could see God, for Jesus is God.
Of course there is a seven year Tribulation like all the other units of Daniel's prophecy are 7 years as well. The 69 sevens pointed to exactly when Jesus entered Jerusalem on March 30th, 33 AD, then died on April 3, 33 AD (Julian) or April 1st (April Fools Day) (Gregorian). But your faith doesn't allow for this amazing prophecy of Daniel where each unit of seven is 7 years from March 5, 444 BC. Study it. It's truly the most amazing prophecy that it could be this exacting.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/DanielAmazing.htm
Unless you can give a reason why times and ways have changed and a unit of seven is no longer seven years then you are barking up the wrong tree. And 42 months is not 42 months? Your day-theory totally breaks down. See 10. The Year-Day Theory.
Time, times and a half is not 1260 days? Half of a 7 year Tribulation pointing to the Great Tribulation? The peace treaty is broken after 42 months. (Dan. 9.27). The Great Tribulation is Matt. 24.15-31 when the abomination of desolation is set up in verse 15.
Part of the Day of Lord are the elements melting. But this doesn't all happen in a second. Rather, The Tribulation at the consummation of this age is followed by Revelation 20.4 the millennial kingdom; only then are the elements are melted. God uses long time periods of transitions. The millennial kingdom is a transitional period from the dispensation of grace to the New City and New Earth. Sacrifices are reinstated by Israel once the Temple is constructed but Jesus is our once-for-all sacrifice so Jesus will judge Israel and explain to them Jesus is the once-for-all, so there is no need for animal sacrifices anymore. The Antichrist will even prevent the sacrifices from continuing when the Great Tribulation starts.
Just as the flood wiped out the wicked, the wicked continued on after that. But God said never will He do this to man ever again, create such a great flood as seen in Genesis 1.2 or the local flood in Noah's day. However, in the Great Tribulation 1/3 of the people of the earth will die (Rev. 9.18) which is not a flood that wipes out everyone who is unsaved, just the wicked nations (Matt. 25.31-46). During the 1000 years people will see Jesus reigning in the Temple on earth, but they will have to believe in Him individually to receive eternal life to be able to enter the New City after the 1000 years. There is still some hidden sin, which is why Satan is released for a short while at the end of the 1000 years, to show he will never repent and God's righteous will to send Satan to Hell for eternity. Rev. 20.3 says the nations won't be deceived in the 1000 years so obviously the 1000 years is not happening now. Nor is it the time of the New City since 1000 years is a finite period, whereas the New City continues in perpetuity.
Sodom and Gomorrah were wiped out. Similarly, the Vatican will be nuked (Rev. 17.16) and "cast into the sea" (8.8) in the 2nd Trumpet in the first half of the 7 year Tribulation. Other cities will be destroyed in the Great Tribulation with a nuclear exchange.
2 Peter 3.10 is a two part prophecy. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." A thief comes to steal the best, so this pertains to the first rapture over those who overcometh constantly reiterated in Revelation 2 & 3. Overcomers are standing at the door ready to not let their house be broken into. To the world even the resurrection at the last trumpet is also like a thief and Jesus' return 24 months after that. Only after the 1000 years is the earth burnt up. To repeat, obviously we are not in the 1000 years right now for the nations are still deceived. Revelation 20.3 says they won't be deceived in the 1000 years.
There will be earthquakes associated to the Tribulation. In the 2 years before the Tribulation in the Tetrad of Revelation 6.12 we read "and, lo, there was a great earthquake..." We also see earthquakes at the end of the Tribulation: "there were flashes of lightening, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail" (11.19). But at the end of the 1000 years there won't be merely earthquakes and heavy hail but also the earth will be left without a sea. What I see in you is you have no faith in Jesus Christ because you have no faith to believe He is going to reign on earth for 1000 years as we see described in Revelation 20.2-7 with overcomer believers who reign as kings and priests over the nations (Rev. 2.26). Reigning from Heaven is not reigning with a "rod of iron" mentioned three times in Revelation. Jesus and overcomers (man-child Rev. 12.5) reign in their resurrected bodies. Six times is mentioned the thousand years. Then only after the thousand years do we see Revelation 21 the New City and the New Earth. How strange the end chapters of the Bible already happened?
Of course there is a distinction between the first rapture, the resurrection (and rapture) at the the last trumpet, and the second coming of Jesus in Person. In fact, His second coming which is parousia commences with the first rapture, when the overcomers (Rev. 14.1-5, 12.5) meet the Lord at the throne (Rev. 7.9) then Jesus comes on a cloud, then through the Tribulation period in the cloud to meet the saints in the air (1 Thess. 4.15-17), and then He comes down from the cloud, just like He was taken up, so shall He return. You have no faith to believe this.
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man" (Rev. 14.14). "They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24.30). "Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1.11). "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south" (Zech. 14.4). "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen" (Rev. 1.7). "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude v.14). "To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him" (v.15). This is the return to earth in His second coming with His saints.
It would be quite odd to return to Earth while it is burning up and being completely destroyed with mountains going into the sea. The latter only occurs after the 1000 years and it is not Jesus returning to earth for He is already on earth in Person at that time. Rather it is a being transferred from earth to the new earth, for earth is burning up and being left without the sea. We know the earth will be burnt up in 2 billion years because of the increasing size of our sun.
IV. Though there are evidences in the Bible on a post-tribulation rapture of believers, this still does not imply that the whole body of believers will be raptured after the Tribulation. And hence this second school of interpretation has its errors too. For the Bible clearly indicates to us that some believers are raptured before the Tribulation. Here are some of the reasons for this view.
A. Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.
B. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.
C. The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.
D. The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.
E. This second school views the twelve disciples as being purely Christians in direct contrast with the view of the first school which considers these twelve as being merely Jews. As a matter of fact, however, these twelve disciples are Christians as well as representatives of the Jewish remnant. For example, in Matthew 10.5-6 and 23.3 we see that all have a Jewish background, a fact which is thus inapplicable to Christians.
F. There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!
V. As we have come to see, the first school lacks scriptural evidences while the second school, though it possesses many proofs, nevertheless has many errors too. What, then, does the Bible actually teach? Let us consider the following observations.
A. Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of’ (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.
B. Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.
C. Other proofs as follows:
(1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.
(2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.
(3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.
VI. Questions raised against separate rapture, and answers thereto, are submitted below.
A. Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life. If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.
B. Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.
C. Some observers ask, is it not rather cruel to take away hope from the church? To which we must answer that in the Scriptures there is no such false hope given; and therefore it is better to alert people to this fact.
D. I Corinthians 15.23, say some, only mentions “they that are Christ’s” and that nothing is said about works. But let us be aware that this verse does not speak of rapture, it speaks of resurrection.
E. Since the dead will not go through the Great Tribulation, would it not be unfair to the living for them to go through it? Will not the righteous God be unjust in this regard? In response, let me say that we do need to be concerned; for during the millennium each and every believer (including all believers who died prior to the Great Tribulation) will receive, as a consequence of appearing before Christ’s judgment seat, the things done in the body while alive, according to what he has done whether it be good or bad (2 Cor. 5.10).
F. Since in 1 Cor. 15:50-52 (“We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed”) “all” is the word used, surely this signifies the whole body. Yes, the “all” here does indeed refer to the entire body, but it does not have reference to the same time. For example, we all will die, but certainly not all of us will do so in one day.
G. There is a distinction made in the Bible between wheat and tares, some say, but no difference made between wheat and wheat; consequently, all wheat must be raptured. In reply, it should be noted that the times of ripening for wheat are not the same. Thus there are the firstfruits and the later harvest.
H. Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.
