Does God Still Commission Apostles for the Work?

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08-29-2006, 07:39 PM
Churchwork

Does God Still Commission Apostles for the Work?

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Originally Posted by woobadooba

So what you are really saying here is that one is only an apostle because the Spirit has gifted that person in this way; and if that person does not exercise that gift, or even if 'she' does exercise that gift, and it isn't received by men, then Jesus won't return.

No. There is no gifting involved, none whatsoever. An apostle is chosen directly by God not through any gifting at all. This is important to realize. Whereas other workers in the church do the work based on their gifts, the office of an apostle does not, nor does an Elder (it too is an office). This does not mean an apostle does not have gifts or does not use them, but those gifts are not the basis for his or her commission.

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Also notice how I used the words "Spirit has gifted", not merely 'gifted' alone as you are assuming.

The gifts of the Spirits are not gifted alone, but are gifts from the Spirit of God. I am not aware of anywhere in the Bible where the gifting is merely alone as you are again misrepresenting: "you are assuming".

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Look closely at what he had said, and take note of what I put in bold font:
"I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them—though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me."(1Co 15:1-10 NRSV)

Now then, look carefully how "the twelve" apostles were overlooked in 1 Cor. 15:5. That seemed convenient to do so.

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Now then, it is quite obvious that the gift of apostleship ended with Paul, the last of the apostles. Moreover, these were apostles because Jesus appeared before them after having died for our sins.

It is quite evident that merely self-declaring the apostleship ended with Paul, is not sound reason or valid basis. Apostles are not Apostles Merle because they saw Jesus in the flesh. Many Apostles did not see Jesus in the flesh or resurrected (I for one), yet were still commissioned by God for the Work. Did Apollos ever see Jesus in Person? Suffice it to say, after Jesus died and was resurrected and raised, the Apostles continue to do the work of selecting elders and training them for the various places such as Ephesus, Jerusalem, Antioch, Rome, Philippi and on and on. Apostle means missionary, and so where God raised Apostles, He is was free to do so.

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In fact, this idea is touched on in Acts:
"For it is written in the Book of Psalms: Let his dwelling become desolate; let no one live in it; and Let someone else take his position."Therefore, from among the men who have accompanied us during the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us-- beginning from the baptism of John until the day He was taken up from us--from among these, it is necessary that one become a witness with us of His resurrection."(Act 1:20-22 HCSB)

This is referring to the twelfth apostle that was replaced, not "all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:7) thereafter. And this would disqualify Paul according to your theory since Paul was not "with the Lord Jesus-from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us into heaven" (Acts 1:21-22). Jesus was taken up to heaven long before Paul saw Jesus in Person. Your theory just does not hold water. And so you sin by rejecting those commissioned by God as is more than obvious. You reject all the missions of Apostles through the centuries. You reject "all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:7) after "the twelve apostles" (v.5 NLT) which technically speaking includes Paul and Apollos and all the others we can name by name.

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So according to this passage in order for a person to be appointed as an apostle, that person had to be a witness to the Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. By the way, this happened during the 40 days in which Jesus appeared before them.

They did not have to witness His crucifixion. Almost nobody actually witnessed His crucifixion. The disciples had fled.

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"After He had suffered, He also presented Himself alive to them by many convincing proofs, appearing to them during 40 days and speaking about the kingdom of God."(Act 1:3 HCSB) Paul was the last to receive this call to office. That is why he spoke thus: "Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."(1Co 15:8 NRSV)

Paul was not the last since there were "all the apostles" (1 Cor. 15:7) in addition to "the twelve apostles" (v.5), and all those apostles were more than just Paul, subsequent to Paul. This verse says Paul was the last to see Jesus in Person, for Jesus had to have returned to show Himself to Paul on the road to Damascus, like an exception to the rule. Acts 9 says, "So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road..." (v.17). All those apostles in the first century and subsequent centuries are missionaries and perform the regional work of setting up the churches. Your reasoning is rejected and refused in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Who are you really defending?

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I've already shown you that the office of the apostle ended with Paul. So where in the Holy Scriptures do you find such a teaching?

I have already shown you how you misunderstood 1 Cor. 15 and Acts 1. So you are free to take an account of your error and respond specifically to how you have been shown in error.

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This does not answer the question. Your view that the church is male-centric is merely an opinion, not a fact. Show us facts. Don't assume mere opinions to be factual unless you can substantiate them as such.

I don't view the church as male centric, so why misrepresent? Rather, the church is not male centric. Thus, women can be apostles and elders. Junia (some manuscripts say Julia) was an apostle, and there was no indication she saw Jesus in Person. The same with many other names of Apostles who had never seen Jesus in Person.

Your opinion that of rejecting women apostles and women elders. This is male-centric. Why be so unreasonable?

Next time you reject the apostles and women apostles, don't do so without just cause. Therein lies your problem, and it remains. Think about it, but not to rationalize yourself further, but come to repentance.
08-15-2007, 02:56 PM
Reno

Reno

Paul in 2 Cor 12:12 Clearly states that apostles are marked with signs, wonders or miracles

So you have to have a gift of something to be an apostle...no regular Joe can just claim to be an apostle without at least having 1 of the 3 Paul mentioned...

2 Cor 12:11-12
11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.
12 The things that mark an apostle-- signs, wonders and miracles-- were done among you with great perseverance.
(NIV)

Just like those who claim to be Prophets without any of their prophesies coming to past...False Prophets, no doubt
08-15-2007, 03:32 PM
Churchwork

I don't consider myself an official apostle, but an interim or an intern apostle until we can gain at least 12 in agreement with the fullness of the questions in your profile as did Paul agree with James, Peter and John when they formed early creeds. This is what we patiently wait for and seek to lead the body of Christ into, because it is fully substantiated and proven and unchallenged. The lack is due to the apostles not in agreement which flows down to Elders of a locality, then Elders of meeting places and all the body of Christ.

Until this agreement is established, miracles, wonders and signs performed will be lacking on this basis. It's like when someone does a good deed, they may have done it for the wrong reason and were not guided by the Holy Spirit to do it.
10-06-2007, 10:56 PM
Jonah

Charles

I have read the new testament many times and can't think of a single scripture where it says that there are more than twelve apostles.
In fact it is my understanding that Christ himself chose the twelve apostles. When Judas fell, the other eleven became presumptuous and cast lots to replace Judas.
Then Christ Himself Chose His own twelfth apostle on the road to Damascus. I am sure that Matthias will understand.

If I have missed a scripture or a teaching from the bible where it shows that there is office for more than twelve apostles then I would appreciate to learn about it.

Acts 1
26And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

There were about 120 men and women who followed Christ in one accord on the day of Pentecost but there were only 11 Apostles who thought they owed it to the Lord to replace Judas.

Matthew 19
28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Twelve thrones indicates that there are only twelve apostles.
10-07-2007, 01:59 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonah

I have read the new testament many times and can't think of a single scripture where it says that there are more than twelve apostles.

"He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15.5) is followed by "after that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles" (v.7).

We know that there were more than 12 apostles.

1. Paul and his associates were apostles: 1 Thess. 2:6, "Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ." These apostles (the "we") could possibly be referring to Silvanus and Timothy as well (1 Thess. 1:1).

2. Paul did not meet the qualifications you are stating and yet was appointed as such (see Acts 9:5-6; 26:15-18). He defends his apostleship in I Cor. 9:1-3.

3. In Acts 14:14, both Barnabas and Paul are called apostles.

4. Gal. 1:19 seems to indicate that our Lord's brother, James, was an apostle.

5. Andronicus and Junias (Rom. 16:7) are "among the apostles."

6. Epaphroditus, in Phil. 2:25 is called an "apostle" ( apostolos), but the ESV, NIV, KJV, NKJV, RSV, NRSV, NASB, etc. translate as "messenger."

That's a total of twenty apostles, and there are more. Praise God!

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In fact it is my understanding that Christ himself chose the twelve apostles. When Judas fell, the other eleven became presumptuous and cast lots to replace Judas. Then Christ Himself Chose His own twelfth apostle on the road to Damascus. I am sure that Matthias will understand.

If I have missed a scripture or a teaching from the bible where it shows that there is office for more than twelve apostles then I would appreciate to learn about it.

Acts 1.20 Peter continued, "This was predicted in the book of Psalms, where it says, `Let his home become desolate, with no one living in it.' [see Pss 69:25; 109:8.] And again, `Let his position be given to someone else.' 21 "So now we must choose another man to take Judas's place. It must be someone who has been with us all the time that we were with the Lord Jesus-22 from the time he was baptized by John until the day he was taken from us into heaven. Whoever is chosen will join us as a witness of Jesus' resurrection."

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they all prayed for the right man to be chosen. "O Lord," they said, "you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen 25 as an apostle to replace Judas the traitor in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and in this way Matthias was chosen and became an apostle with the other eleven.

Sounds well thought out as they voted upon prayer and leading of the Holy Spirit.

Paul was not saved until about 2 years after Jesus died, so between that time some of these other apostles may have come about as well which would make Paul not the thirteenth.

Since there is no indication that Paul was the twelfth apostle, accept that it was Jesus who chose Matthias and imparted by the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have waited 2 years to fill the twelfth spot.

Paul clearly said, "And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time...least of the apostles" (1 Cor. 15.8,9) which is after, " all the apostles" (v.7), that is, the Twelve plus all the others.

The more interesting question to ask is, Were Justus and Matthias apostles already before the Eleven chose Matthias, and is that why there were only two to choose from?

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There were about 120 men and women who followed Christ in one accord on the day of Pentecost but there were only 11 Apostles who thought they owed it to the Lord to replace Judas.

These apostles have authority to choose the twelfth given to them by God. That's why they did it! It was not up to the 120 or the 5000. Today, if there be twelve to reclaim Biblocality, the first twelve are going to have to agree upon whom we are. That is the most reasonable solution. That is the objective presented here at Biblocality.com.

God loves man's participation. He does not want to do everything Himself. This is was good opportunity for the Apostles to choose the twelfth in accordance with the will of the Holy Spirit and we shall do so again in reclaiming Biblocality.

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Matthew 19
28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Twelve thrones indicates that there are only twelve apostles.

He is speaking such because there is only 12 apostles at that time, but in the future there need be many more to reign over the many nations. So today, there are to be many apostles of regions of churches to prepare for that day of overcomer believers who receive their reward of reigning over the nations.

He is also speaking thusly because Israel does not receive that reward of reigning as kings ("reigned with Christ a thousand years" Rev. 20.4) and priests ("they shall be priests of God and of Christ" v.6).

Though Jesus may very give the highest reward to 12 or 24 or 120 by His side in the 1000 years (who can say?), one think is for certain. He does put His name on 144,000 (Rev. 14.1-5), for they are closest to Him during that time and receive the highest reward. They are literally virgins. They are not necessarily the most spiritual, but they kept themselves virgins. This is important because it points to the New City in which procreation will no longer exist.

Would you like further proof of these 144,000?
10-07-2007, 02:05 PM
Jonah

Charlie

I was not questioning whether there are Apostles or what is required to be an Apostle. All of those things are written in Scripture. I was only sounding off about how prophesy "about Apostles" seems to come to rest at the number twelve. For instance in this scripture.

Revelation 21
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You have posted some Good scriptures that I will study.
10-07-2007, 06:06 PM
Churchwork

Jonah, you wrote you "can't think of a single scripture where it says that there are more than twelve apostles." Does not the answer I gave show you there are more than twelve?

You did not know if there were more than 12 apostles, when you wrote, "If I have missed a scripture or a teaching from the bible where it shows that there is office for more than twelve apostles then I would appreciate to learn about it."

This was your feeling when you said, "Twelve thrones indicates that there are only twelve apostles," but such is not the case as was shown, and it is a declaring statement, not merely only saying it appeares or "seems to come to rest at the number twelve." When you said, "I was not questioning whether there are Apostles or what is required to be an Apostle," you're doubletalking from these previous quotes given which directly contradict what you just said. What you said before indicated you were not just only questioning there are these Apostles more than 12 and what is required to be an Apostle more than 12, but you flat out denied it there are more than 12. Instead of covering up what you said with a sly tongue, accept your original intention; then, based on the evidence of Scripture given accept now that there are more than 12 Apostles. If the Church can't even resolve this simple issue, it's got problems. Hence, the need for a place like Biblocality Forums to help get the Church back on track.

There are only 12 original apostles. The first century is called the apostolic age, because in addition to the first 12 there is also the first apostles born during this time of writing the Bible. Today, I like to sometimes use the term informal apostle to differentiate we are not longer in that time, but the apostles today do the exact same work.

In Rev. 21.14, these twelve foundations are in remembrance of where we came from of the first twelve Apostles (Matthias' name will be there, not Judas' nor Paul's). How important choosing the twelfth was! My prayer is you no longer accuse the 11 apostles of being "presumptuous". The Word of God is inerrant. Let me know if you have let go of this false allegation. The apostles represent the grace of God which form the foundation of the wall. It is a physical structure. I envision it as a wall 216 feet high in 12 main levels of steps leading up to the New City. Imagine how amazing that would look? For those living outside the New City, they would need to walk up those steps. There are no infirm and no sin, for people never die, but they need to enter the New City to receive renewal of their bodies because the body is inherently weak. The New Earth will have the gravity 1/3 of Earth, so going up those steps is no problem.