A Jonathan Edwards Fan - Edwardsian Sins' Bearing False Witness
Re: http://www.youtube.com/user/edwardsian
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwardsian
you edited our dialogue out because you were proven wrong, and in some weird way you have a hard time admitting it.
you also edited the dialogue out because you blasphemed the Holy Spirit by asserting that He bore witness to your spirit that craig was an osasa; and you even claimed absolute certainty for this!
now you've been proven wrong; which means that either the Holy Spririt made an error or that you're deluded into thinking that you receive special revelations from the Spirit of Truth. i think you can guess where i stand on that dilemma.
you edited our dialogue out because, if the average reader of your site sees that you (a) claimed illumination/inspiration from the Holy Spirit in one instance, only to be proven wrong (by your own admission), then (b) it is plausible to think that, maybe, you're deluded when you assert that craig, wesley, c. s. lewis, etc. are going to hell (or are in hell).
i now know for a fact that you cannot be trust on *any* level--not as a scholar, not as a civil dialogue partner, not as a website administrator, not as anything.
no one in church history (luther, calvin, aquinas, augustine, etc) would ever take you seriously. you, your bible, and (possibly) some other spirit stand alone! if you're correct, then the Holy Spirit failed to bring the greatest doctors of the church to a right understanding of salvation!
so ... is troy right (which entails that the Holy Spirit is a failure) or is the entire church right? hmm ... let me see ... yep ... i'll go with the church and leave troy alone with his terrible misreading of the bible, his legalistic theology, his blasphemies against the Holy Spirit, etc.
... good luck, troy, you're gonna need it!
e
I thought you were a Calvinist, therefore, don't believe in luck. I believe all things have a cause in nature, so it can't be luck. My God saves to the uttermost, but yours doesn't. Yours is allowed to send people to Hell without the choice or sufficient grace to have the opportunity to be saved. And he irresistibly which is unrighteously imposes salvation on others. Whereas my God saves the most and damns the least. Yours condemns those who shouldn't be condemned and saves those who shouldn't be saved. And that is the difference. Your god is evil, so you are moved to act in accordance with his unethicalness.
You are just being ungracious. I have to abide in my conscience. If my conscience tells me there was no clear evidence one way or another then I have to reserve judgment. Craig gets the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. I never said with absolute certainty he was OSAS, nor did I say the Holy Spirit said so either. But as soon as I received clear evidence, I could abide in it (e.g. his podcast #11 on the Doctrine of Salvation). Don't be a hard Calvinist. Don't be a Calvinist at all. If God was gracious to you, then don't be so hard on others and by misrepresenting them. But you being a Calvinist, much grace has been given, and still you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's unsalvation, and a false conversion experience.
I never said the Holy Spirit told me Craig was OSAS, only that it appeared by his words that he was by the many quotes I gave. After he teaches correctly on several issues, one should not immediately jump to the conclusion he is non-OSAS (false teaching) especially since others were saying he was OSAS.
Did I not say we need to wait to listen to his podcast series to find out of if there was clear indication?
Therefore, you are sinning bearing false witness. By the way, where did I say C.S. Lewis is going to Hell? Or that he believes what you do. You are getting yourself into trouble with God because you are sinning so much bearing false witness. I do believe that Craig (non-OSASer), you and the other Calvinists are going to Hell. That is what my conscience testifies with the Holy Spirit. "My conscience bears witness with the Holy Spirit" (Rom. 9.1) in agreement with other members of the body of Christ and the word of God.
Hypothetically, if I had sinned in stating what I thought was Craig's position, God does not hold this sin against me because I am going on the evidence that I am presented with at my level of understand and abiding in the conscience that I have. This is the minimum standard God has set for us. The Holy Spirit, though, is telling me that you are going to Hell if you remain a Calvinist as evidenced in the Scriptures. You may not like it, but you haven't been able to show otherwise which should be strong proof to you. You could not provide any conclusive evidence, until I sent you the findings in podcast #11 on the Doctrine of Salvation.
The real issue, therefore, now that we found and know for sure what Craig clearly believes in no uncertain terms, reverts the discussion to showing Hunt is right, Craig is wrong, and Calvin, White, Sproul, even Craig are unsaved.
I think it is quite clear, you can't be trusted, because you will sin so much bearing false witness as we have seen time and again, engorged in your petty self. This is a spirit of dissension, not that of seeking for the truth. You think just because someone is a great doctor that provides them entrance into heaven? or to assume someone is a great doctor of the Church? Don't you know God is no respecter of persons.
Augustine, Luther and Calvin were never born-again. That is easy to see. I don't know specifically Aquinas' position, but I thought he was a Roman Catholic whom teach non-OSAS. But you are mixing them up and thus bearing false witness against what I said. You even threw in C.S. Lewis when I never mentioned him at all. Funny. I stated Augustine, Calvin, and Luther were not saved specifically. I give the reason: they refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. I made no mention of Aquinas. You're just trying to be sneaky. Why try to be cunning and couth?
Your unsalvation is due to what Calvinists admit. They have to pridefully assume regeneration first without having prior repented and believed in Christ, so God does not save them. Just like Hitler claims the Jews were destined for the gas chambers from birth without sufficient grace to have the choice. There is nothing they could do about according to Calvinism, and it is only Hitler's Aryan race that are irresistibly selected without having to repent and believe in the truth. If it weren't for Calvinism, Hitler couldn't have achieved what he did. You have not come to Christ repentantly and with belief in Christ, because you assume you can't. Assumptions are deadly. That keeps you separated from God with the idolatry teaching of Total depravity.
You are a false teacher. Scripture never says you are Totally depraved, so never equate the fallen nature with Total inability. Rather, it is propensity to sin, depravity and willfulness, rather than necessity. Your extreme view of depravity is your idolatry. It is your pet legalism and special teaching you use to keep yourself separated from God and yourself outside of the body of Christ, the Church. It's a selfish salvation. You get to be saved (have your cake), and eat it too (lost in sin and self).
Gnostics taught Total depravity also, for they claimed they were created by an evil creator. An evil creator can only create evil Totally. It's a false heady teaching because your spirit is dead to God as your outerman is trying to make sense of things with a corrupted conscience. First you must allow God to regenerate your innerman with His life.
Weirdly, you jump from these unsaved men to the entire Church being a failure? Your Church is a failure! Certainly. For these men weren't in the Church. They were the deceivers presenting and pressing with a false gospel. They were false tares trying to look like saved wheat. All your sinning bearing false witness gets you into trouble, and does not change your unsalvation and their untenable position. It's all destined for the gas chambers of Hell.
I thought it would be best for people to not see a discussion of vagaries in which we couldn't find clear words from Craig one way or the other, for he would give words that were OSAS sometimes and other times non-OSAS. It's better people listen to audio (7/27/09).
I would prefer other people not to have to go through what we went through in trying to decipher what Craig really believes from his many words. Why does that upset you? That's my motivation and is well approved by the Holy Spirit no matter how much you fight it. It's interesting Craig's emotional reaction in his podcast when he finally and clearly admitted his position. It's as if he was being prodded to finally give up the ghost. I can't help but think my efforts in contacting him to that end is what finally got him to give it up. Praise the Lord!
Don't think I am judging merely, but it is God, for he places this sin of yours right up there with the worst of sins. He hates bearing false witness. You're trying to look for some other reason for why our thread was removed, but the reason is, as was said, it does no good to see us unable to find clear words for what Craig his position. But now we know!
My prayer for you is to realize how horrible this sin is bearing false witness is, and that you do need to be saved, for you are as yet unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. So all your words are for the purpose to rationalize your reading the Scripture without the Spirit. That's why you and I are eternally at odds. You are going to Hell, and I am going to Heaven. You and I will never get along because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. The bible says you are "already condemned" (John 3.18). I don't want to spend an eternity with such a person. I would rather go to Hell, actually, if you were saved under such a false salvation. Praise God He doesn't save your way!
Though it may appear we Christians stand alone as Calvin killed off Anabaptists and OSAS Arminians one by one (and non-OSASers too), we are nonetheless, members of the body of Christ, and there is nothing that you can do about it. There are no words, no deceptions you can employ. None can pluck us out of His hands. Where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, there is the Church. We are mocked, berated and belittled, but God uses the foolishness of the cross to bring down the wise even you. However hostile you may be towards Christians receiving special revelation by the Holy Spirit indwelling all who are His children, it doesn't matter, because there is nothing you can do to separate us from Christ. We are not in a heady salvation as Calvinists are in their heads, but our spirit's intuition and conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit able to commune with God therein.
What is different between us as the reader can see is you claim so many people are saved. You are a great liberal Calvinist, priding yourself with it, claiming so many people are saved. Whereas I can't believe God saves so many, because the New City is not that big, and all these different ways of salvation certainly conflict with each other.
You claim Wesley is saved, whereas I would not because he has a salvation which can be lost tomorrow. I don't know that God. So you see how you contradict yourself. Different ways of salvation, yet they are all saved? You would claim Augustine is saved even though he taught Total depravity. Admittedly therefore, he did not repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, because if everyone is Totally depraved, then nobody can receive salvation unless your god irresistibly imposes salvation on some and denies others sufficient grace to have the choice.
As Dave Hunt says, What Love is This?
