A Question for All of Islam
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Originally Posted by
Acid
Hi Parture ,
As we know to confirm any thing in history we need to look for reliable evidence . In the christanity history its a fact that bible was written by unknown authors at unknown time periods and at many different places and much longer after Jesus death.
As I understand most scholars, even skeptical scholars, believe Matthew wrote Matthew, Paul wrote his Epistles, James wrote James, Peter wrote his epistles, Jude wrote Jude, John wrote John and his epistles and Revelation, Mark wrote Mark, Luke wrote Luke and Acts, and Paul wrote his epistles and most if not all of Hebrews. All of these were completed in the first century. In fact, the records of the church fathers quote the Bible enough times to almost completely recreate it, so this proves the Bible was written before the 2nd century. Furthermore, most skeptical scholars accept Paul wrote Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15, completed within 20 years after Jesus' death in which he said he met with the Apostles James, Peter and John on more than one occasion and testified with them they saw Jesus resurrected alive after his death on the cross. I am not sure how you explain this away or even if you try to.
They said they saw Him, touched Him, walked with Him, ate with Him, and talked with Him. Modern psychology says group hallucinations are impossible, so how do you explain this away? People can hallucinate things individually, but never as a group the same thing.
Not only this they went to their deaths as martyrs for their eyewitness testimonies of Jesus' death and resurrection. That is different than blowing yourself for Allah of the Koran for a belief in what one guy wrote in a cave all by himself and you are suppose to trust.
12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
In the Case for Faith and the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, we hear from scholars who say there is not enough time for legend to have developed either, for nothing in antiquity is more well documented with their earliest sources are so close to events at hand as is the case for Christianity. Compare that to the time lag for the Koran and the Iliad. The Iliad's first document is over a thousand years later. And Jesus is more well documented than any person in antiquity. In fact, the Emperor who died 10 years after Jesus died is documented only 1/10th the amount Jesus is documented within the first 150 years of their lives.
We have 45 early sources, 17 of which are non-Christian (see The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, 2004, or Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus or The Historical Jesus, by Gary R. Habermas). Even of just those 17 non-Christian documents, 12 of them speak of Jesus having died or died on the cross. And there are 129 facts of Jesus. I am not sure how you explain this way or if you even try, but suffice it to say, the burden of the proof is on you to show otherwise, because you can't come along six centuries later and take the word of one man in a cave all by himself and trust him who said it never happened. That would presuming too much don't you think? You don't want a religion like that. Why not pray to God to ask Him if He is real, would He be so unverifiable?
The Bible has 40 authors in agreement over 1500 years. Then there is the Koran, the book of Mormon, etc. and many other false prophets. So my question remains: Is there any evidence for Jesus NOT dying on the cross?
Since all the Bible authors agree Jesus died for our sins, especially those who said they saw Jesus resurrected and spent 3 years in His ministry, don't they have authority and are the most relevant data points? Otherwise you call them liars and Jesus too in his words.
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Jesus did not die for our sin on cross.
The Almighty confirmed this fact in His Noble Quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH :
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."
- [ Noble Quran ]
Given the evidence above, the Koran sounds like it is ignoble. Jesus was a witnessed when he was testified in His resurrection by eyewitness accounts and the Apostles remembered what He said, He would be raised on the third day. The Romans put Jesus to death at the request of the Jews, who rejected their Messiah. You are in full of doubts, because you have conjecture do you not, but what about the evidence given of the 45 sources and what most skeptical scholars agree that Paul was being genuine, that is, he truly believed it? Even the Jews in their Talmud admit they put Jesus to death.
There is Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth in Eusebius, Tertullian, Origen and the early non-Christian writings about Christ, e.g. Josephus (Jewish), Tacitus (Roman), Lucian (satirist), Mara Bar-Serapion (highly regarded in the British Museum), Talmud (an important Jewish document). We have 129 facts of Jesus in 45 ancient sources, 17 of which are non-Christian.
Pray to God if Jesus will witness against you and deny you before His father in heaven, for surely a man scourged, stabbed in his heart and poured out water from hist chest cavity and no longer supported his legs on the cross could possibly continue to live, so as prophesied his legs did not need to be broken like those of the two thiefs who died with Him. The tomb was empty on the third day in agreement with His eyewitness accounts.
Read the Bible to see if it is so. Ask God if Allah of the Koran is Satan. Try praying to God of the Bible to see if Allah of the Koran is telling you the truth or if he has any evidence, any whatsoever at all! Come with an honest heart to determine if there is evidence, and if there is none be open to God to move in the right direction, that He can move you.
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The bible also testifies this act at places but also contains myth . Here is a small comparison which shows that according to Psalm 91 Jesus didnt got curcified:
Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture):
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"
Psalm 91 was recorded in the Septuagint centuries before Christ.
1
Those who live in the shelter of the Most High
will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2
This I declare of the Lord:
He alone is my refuge, my place of safety;
he is my God, and I am trusting him.
3
For he will rescue you from every trap
and protect you from the fatal plague.
4
He will shield you with his wings.
He will shelter you with his feathers.
His faithful promises are your armor and protection.
5
Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night,
nor fear the dangers of the day,
6
nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness,
nor the disaster that strikes at midday.
7
Though a thousand fall at your side,
though ten thousand are dying around you,
these evils will not touch you.
8
But you will see it with your eyes;
you will see how the wicked are punished.
9
If you make the Lord your refuge,
if you make the Most High your shelter,
10
no evil will conquer you;
no plague will come near your dwelling.
11
For he orders his angels
to protect you wherever you go.
12
They will hold you with their hands
to keep you from striking your foot on a stone.
13
You will trample down lions and poisonous snakes;
you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet!
14
The Lord says, "I will rescue those who love me.
I will protect those who trust in my name.
15
When they call on me, I will answer;
I will be with them in trouble.
I will rescue them and honor them.
16
I will satisfy them with a long life
and give them my salvation."
This chapter doesn't talk about Crucifixion as do other verses. However, we do know Jesus entered into His creation and became the suffering servant (Is. 53). He rescues us by His atonement on the cross. This is God's salvation for us. Many other verses show this explicitly.
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Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 "...he will be raised and lifted up....". Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say "....he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up...." Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible's Old Testament what so ever.
The Jews believed in resurrection (ask any Jew), and though the Bible predicts they would reject their Messiah in Is. 53 and other verses, realize the true Jew does not reject the atoning sacrifice of their Messiah. Just as Jesus was resurrected so shall we be. The Jews never thought they would cease to exist, but they believed in resurrection. What does Is. 52 say?
10 The Lord will demonstrate his holy power before the eyes of all the nations. The ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
How does He do this? Through their coming Messiah who came almost 2000 years ago.
11 You are the Lord's holy people. Purify yourselves, you who carry home the vessels of the Lord. 12 The God of Israel will protect you.
Why does Islam want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and silence the God of Israel, of all Creation, if Israel was the Lord's holy people? What is the vessel of the Lord? Is it not the Ark of the Covenant pointing to Jesus Christ their Messiah?
The Lord's Suffering Servant
13 See, my servant will prosper; he will be highly exalted. 14 Many were amazed when they saw him-beaten and bloodied, so disfigured one would scarcely know he was a person. 15 And he will again startle many nations. Kings will stand speechless in his presence. For they will see what they had not previously been told about; they will understand what they had not heard about.
Does not Jesus who was beaten and bloodied startle many nations, including 23 Islamic nations? Was not Pilate speechless to Jesus for he said he held nothing against Him? The nations are told about Jesus like never before. They understand but are they willing today? Which is why Jesus will return.
To be so disfigured as Jesus was when He was scourged before being put to death, He was surely brought to His death as Is. 53 testifies He would be.
He was humiliated. His resurrection on the third day was not right from the moment of His death on the cross but on the third day. Very plain.
Is. 52.17 reads "exalted and extolled". To be exalted is to be placed above all men and put before the right hand of the Father. To be lifted up is to be raised up, because he was put down by his death on the cross. Now you contend that His lifting up does not necessitate He had to die, but Is. 52 & 53 say He was scourged and died for us, so this is how you know His lifting up was as the consequence of His being brought down. Amen.
Jesus conquered death and so shat those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior. It's interesting to note Islam says Jesus will judge you, because even Islam is convicted by Jesus but they purport a false Jesus who does not die for your sins. But remember, Is. 53,
Who has believed our message?
To whom will the Lord reveal his saving power? 2 My servant grew up in the Lord's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3 He was despised and rejected-a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.
4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows (ATONEMENT) that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of us all (PERFECT SACRIFICE).
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter (DIED ON THE CROSS). And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8 From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins (ATONEMENT)-that he was suffering their punishment? 9 He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal (PUT IN THE TOMB, NOT RAISED UP IMMEDIATELY); he was put in a rich man's grave.
10 But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs (CHRISTIANS). He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord's plan will prosper in his hands. 11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins (ATONEMENT). 12 I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners (ATONEMENT).
I'm still left with the same question unanswered by yourself, what evidence do you have for Jesus not dying on the cross, or for that matter Jesus not atoning for your sins, and how do you overturn all this evidence given?
According to the Scriptures, would Jesus rise?
PARTURE:
You said Psalm 91 "doesn't talk about Crucifixion." Do you think it predicts the Messiah's resurrection, or just as you said, his rescue of us?
I disagree that "Islam wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth," but there are probably alot of Palestinian Christians who want their homes back because the so-called "Jewish state" evicted them.
Could Isaiah 52 & 53 be about God's servant Israel? You're right that "Jesus who was beaten and bloodied startled many nations," but how do you know that this verse is about him in particular, since there are other ways for someone to startle nations?
You asked: "Was not Pilate speechless to Jesus for he said he held nothing against Him?" Does it count if Pilate spoke to Jesus before he found him innocent, but not afterwards?
Even if nations today are unwilling to speak about him, does that mean they "shut their mouths at him for that which had not been told them shall they see," and that they are quiet because they understand about him?
What phrase in Isaiah 53 specifically says that he would be put to death?
Was it only because Isaiah 53 referred to the Messiah's tomb that you wrote:
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"His resurrection on the third day was not right from the moment of His death on the cross but on the third day. Very plain."
Could lifted up mean "lifted up" as a leader amongst his people, instead of lifted up to heaven?
I read that other translations say the servant in Isaiah 53:5 was bruised instead of crushed. Could a person be "crushed" without being killed? If a person is led to slaughter, does that mean they were actually slaughtered?
The King James version doesn't have for Isaiah 53:8 "But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins?" Instead the King James Version says he was cut off from the land of the living. Which translation is right? Could the "land of the living" mean Israel?
You translated Isaiah 53:9 as "But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave." The King James Version says: "he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death." Is this the same thing?
You translated Isaiah 53:9 as: "Yet when his life is made an offering for sin," but the modern Jewish Masoretic translation says: "it pleased the LORD... to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution." Which is right?
Can someone expose themself to death, or suffer for others or "bear their sins," without actually dieing?
I did not see the movie of the Muslim woman who became Christian on the link.
I disagree that "The Bible teaches that once your are saved, you're always saved," since the New Testament warned believers to avoid falling away. I think John Calvin invented this idea, but a former Calvinist told me even Calvin didn't accept it. You are right to say: "How silly it would be if God saves then unsaves then saves then unsaves." God saves everyone, but unfortunately some people reject him, even after they used to accept it.
Kind Regards,
Hal Smith
According to the Scriptures the Messiah would Rise
PARTURE,
Thanks for your reply. Alot of times we are shy to discuss our Christian faith, so your discussion is special.
You are right that "the Bible says those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28)." But it seems that this only settles it if one is already sure that the Bible is true.
I am glad if you have had such an experience like you said, but then I think whether you have had such an experience might depend on what you mean by the phrase "they shall never perish."
It makes sense as a matter of simple reason that: "The reason a person has to get saved is because they are unsaved. You're never saved first. Otherwise, there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross for your sins."
On the other hand, I doubt that: "Being born into sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. What happens is you are born into sin."
I highly doubt that humans are born into sin and that original sin is inherited. Such an idea was invented by St Augustine, God Bless him, in Western Christianity in the 4th-5th century. But Ezekiel specifically says that children don't inherit the guilt from their fathers.
Further, it seems like you are simply trying to deal with the moral problems caused by the invented idea that Original Sin is inherited to everyone, even babies who are incapable of understanding basic Christian doctrine, and your view that acceptance of such doctrine is necessary for salvation, when you propose about being "born into sin":
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God abides in the age of accountability to save that person if they lose their life before that moment because God is a just and fair God. At that very moment of the age of accountability, different for each person, a death sentence is accorded to you and the second death which is Hell unless you respond to God's grace that is sufficient for all which can save you. Jesus said there is no way to the Father accept through the Son, speaking of Himself since He is God.
I think it is a mystery who God will save, although the Bible does promise that at least those who believe in Christ and do God's Will will be saved at the Judgment.
I also doubt that: "Nobody is saved at the age of accountability." I think it could be that someone could be baptized as a baby and be raised in a Christian family and be in communion with Christ at such an age, assuming that such an age exists.
And while it sounds similar to Christian,, Biblical ideas when you write:
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To be saved you must be born-again. If by the end of your life you still have not repented and believed in the Lord Jesus as Savior, you will be eternally separated from God. You've basically said you want to be eternally separated from God, so you send yourself to the Lake of Fire for all eternity. That's very sad. But if that is what you want by rejecting Christ, God will let you have your wish. He must respond righteously. He lets you have your free will. He won't coerce you into loving Him back.
I still think that God's judgment is a mystery. He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan, He gave the parable of servants who told the Master that they wouldn't work but did, and He said that He who does the will of His Father in heaven is Christ's relative. Plus, St Paul wrote that the gentiles were a law unto themselves, apparently referring to non-Jewis nonChristians, and made similar statements in the Letter to the Romans.
Also, I am confused when you write: "What's interesting to me is that God will not prevent the creation of those who will be saved and love Him on account of those who will refuse His love, mercy and grace. That's an amazing statement to me according to Molinism."
Wikipedia says "In basic terms, Molinists hold that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creature would freely choose if placed in any circumstance." Well, that makes sense, I am not sure what is new about that, with all due respect.
In conclusion, thanks for writing. After reading your messages and reading articles on the web I have come to believe that the scriptures do prophecy the Messiah's resurrection. I wrote about it on my website rakovskii.livejournal.com and invite you to come and see at your desire and convenience.
Health, Happiness, and Inspiration to you, brother.
