Don't Confuse the Gathering of the Saints with the Gathering of the Jews

Re: veteran @ orthodoxforum.com

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Originally Posted by veteran

Because Apostle Paul shows the idea of parousia and episunago in 2 Thessalonians 2 about Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints, you're whole theory about Matt.24 and Mark 13 not being about the harpazo event has been struck down.

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The gathering spoken of here is not the rapture of the church, because (1) parousia has already passed, and rapture is within the scope of parousia; (2) this is a gathering together, and hence it has no connection with parousia; (3) if it were indeed parousia it would be totally foreign to the meaning of the preceding passage; (4) by it pointing to the Jews it agrees with Matthew 23.37; (5) at the trump of God, the Lord would come to the air; and (6) the context proves to be concerning the Jews. (many Jewish references in Matt. 24.4-31 we can go over if you like unlike for Matt. 24.32-25.30 which is to the Church).

If what you say were true that "gathering" can only mean the rapture I would concede your point, but how precious are the words of 2 Thess. 2.1, "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

The order given is first "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" followed "by our gathering together with him." The Lord does not come and then meets the saints in the air for that is backwards. First the Lord meets the overcomers at the throne (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts (8.7ff) then He comes on the clouds and then through the clouds through the Tribulation parousia period then He meets the saints in the air at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18, 1 Cor. 15.23, Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4) before the 7th trumpet that pours out the 7 bowls of wrath as we are not appointed unto wrath. And then the gathering. There is first the coming for His saints and then with His saints then finally the gathering and assembly. These do not all happen at the same moment.

Do you see it is most amazing how clear God's word is! So the gathering here is upon the the Lord Jesus returning with 10,000 of His saints (Jude 14,15). Both the first rapture and 7th trumpet rapture have already taken place. And thus it is used in the same context as Matt. 24.31 except that 2 Thess. 1 is referring to the gathering of the saints, not specifically the Jews though it can be said the whole world is gathered with Christ when He steps down on the mount of olives. For 30 days after that 1260th day (the day Jesus steps down) take us to the 1290th day. Those 30 days are used to judge the nations. 45 days more to the1335th day Jesus sets up Israel as a the center of all nations, From thenceforth a total gathering can said to have occurred for the millennial kingdom, the next dispensation, which is the dispensation or time of recompense. Rewards are given to reign.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matt24circles.gif

Look further at 2 Peter 3.4, where the question raised is: “Where is the promise of his parousia?”

Then 1 Thessalonians speaks (1) of a standing before the Lord Jesus Christ at His parousia (2.19), (2) of the time of the parousia of the Lord with all His saints (3.13), (3) of how we shall all be caught up and meet the Lord in the air at His parousia (4.15-17), and (4) of having our spirit and soul and body preserved entire without blame at the parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ (5.23).

What are the things which transpire during the time of parousia? All who are Christ’s shall be resurrected (1 Cor. 15.23). The parousia of the Lord is where the believers will gather together with Him (2 Thess. 2.1). In His parousia, He will deal with the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2.8). The lawless one will also have his own parousia (2 Thess. 2.9). If we abide in Christ we may have boldness and not be ashamed before Him at His parousia (1 John 2.28).

We deduce from these Scripture passages that parousia includes the throne and the air. Time-wise, it begins with the first rapture and ends with the appearing of Christ and His saints on earth. Thus parousia actually stands between the church and the kingdom. It comprises (1) the first rapture to the throne, (2) tribulation and the Great Tribulation, (3) the Lord descending to the air, (4) the general rapture of believers to the air, and (5) the appearing of Christ with His saints on earth. Perhaps the following diagram and the explanatory text which follows can make it clearer.

During parousia there are three periods which coincide with three locations: (see large center circle above): At the beginning of parousia (1) the overcoming believers are raptured to the throne (Matt. 24.37, 40-41). After some time (2a) the Lord descends from heaven to the air (1 Thess. 4.15-17, 1 Cor. 15.23)—(please remember that the throne is presently in heaven—Rev. 4.1-2). Meanwhile (2b) the dead in Christ shall rise, and those believers who are alive and left on the earth from the previous rapture (to the throne) shall, together with the risen dead in Christ, be caught up to the air. There they shall experience parousia with the Lord. And finally, parousia ends (3) with the appearing of the Lord with His saints from the air to the earth. He will bring to nought the Antichrist by the exploded glory of His parousia (2 Thess. 2.8-9).

There is a failure in your school of thinking to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

"Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.40,42).

Who is to watch? The Christian since it speaks of "your Lord". What happens if you watch or don't watch?

If you watch, will you be taken or will you be left?

The Lord comes to take and not leave. A thief in the night comes to steal the best first.

So if you are watchful you will be taken at the first rapture before the Tribulation starts.

Death is no blessing so to be left and die is not good. To be taken is better than being martyred in the Tribulation.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

All these things that come to pass is the Tribulation. To stand before the Son of Man is in 3rd heaven "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9).

To be accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation you would need to be prayerful.

But God can't promise you won't be martyred when you enter the Tribulation, so this promise to escape the Tribulation can only be assured if you are raptured for keeping the word of His patience.

If "thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3.10.

This hour of trial is the Tribulation which comes upon the whole world. A Christian can only be assured escape it if he is raptured.

God can't promise you won't be martyred if you enter the Tribulation, so this referring to the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (8.7ff).

In summary: Overcomers are raptured at the first rapture (Rev. 7.9). Non-overcomers though saved pass through the Tribulation to be resurrected and/or raptured at the start of the 7th trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18, Rev. 11.15, 15-2-4) near the end of the Tribulation, but before the bowls of wrath, since it is the 7th trumpet that contains the bowls of wrath and we are not appointed unto wrath. Jesus returns with 10,000 overcomer believers (Jude 14,15) after the 7th trumpet-the 2,520 day of the Tribulation or 1260th day of the Great Tribulation-to reign with His overcomers over nations (Rev. 2.26) with a "rod of iron" for 1000 years (20.4-6). The Day of the Lord spans from the first rapture according to readiness to the 7th trumpet general rapture and resurrection according to completion to Jesus returning with His overcomers to reigning with them for 1000 years. As a day is to the Lord so is a 1000 years with us. "The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Pet. 3.10).

Many have no faith to believe this, but it is amply proven in God's word in the plain reading of the Scriptures. And "Chiliasm" was the word used in the first and second centuries by the early church fathers for premillennialism so premillennialism existed long before the great schism.