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Originally Posted by
Alex
If you wish to restrict true saved christians to born-again christians, that is your opinion. It seems to me that could offend the majority of christians world-wide, seeing as born again are only a fraction of all of Christ's followers. I personally don't really care, because I didn't really are about the sacraments, but other christians may care about that.
Also, it was only pretentious for me to break bread once I had realized not only that I didn't believe in it, but that others did. Before that, it was probably more akin to an innocent and unintentional gesture.
The Bible says a Christian is born-again. Jesus said "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3.7). There are no sacraments in the Bible. You made that up too. Obviously, you are confused by the Roman Church you said you were brought up in which the Bible calls the great harlot of religious Rome that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8). No wonder why you ar so confused. You were pretentious to break bread any time being unsaved no matter how much you thought you were a Christian.
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The wrongly convicted know they do not belong there, and I am sure there is a score of other people in jail who know they are innocent, victims of an accident or an imperfect legal system (hey, what legal system is?). As for criminal people, some are aware of the consequences of their actions, but they think the possible benefits outweigh the possible punishments. Other people are aware of the consequences of their actions, but they cannot survive through other means, and others are completely unaware of the consequence of their actions.
We are not talking about wrongful convictions. You're on a red herring. Nobody needs to commit a crime to survive. Anyone can get a job at 7-11.
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I do not desire to be in hell, and I do not desire to be separated from God any more than I do wish to be separated from Barney the Dinosaur. The judeo-christian God is just that implausible to me. Now I'm not saying there is absolutely no God, or that there are no supreme beings at all. I would be very enlightening to have a conversation with such a being.
As such, I do not have hostility towards God so much as I have hostility towards God's followers who use his Bible to make the lives of others miserable. I can't be hostile or angry at something I don't think exists. Also as such, threats (or warnings) of damnation and eternal hellfire will have absolutely no effect on me, because I am simply not afraid of it, just as you are not afraid of being devoured by a monster if your heart is heavier than Maat's feather of truth at your death. Such threats (or warnings) only work on people who believe in them.
Deep down inside you don't know yourself that you desire to be in Hell. It reeks all over you in every word you speak. Since God is proven and obviously a dinosaur did not create the universe, your comparison is nonsensical. You should consider your view implausible because you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles. So it is not an evidential issue, but a heart issue which is why you are going to Hell. You do have hostility towards God, that's why you reject Him and desire to be eternally separated from Him. By claiming God does not exist yet shutting your mind down to the evidence, shows your hostility. I am not threatening you with Hell, but telling you were you will go because you want to be eternally separated from God. While there is no evidence for your devouring monster, the proof for God remains which you do not challenge.
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Quick insert, I haven't read the Bible all that much, though I do plan on doing so this summer, so no, I have not heard of it, nor do I know of it. Yet. Also, you can't say what is deep down in my heart without even knowing me. I mean come on, do I say you have a deep-seated need to gloat and to threaten others with eternal torture, and that you are a psychopath? Of course not! I wouldn't dare to pretend to know what's going on in your head and heart without at the very least knowing you VERY well. Do please return the courtesy, and don't assume to know what I am thinking please.
You have mentioned Hell many times already, so you do know something about it that it is the place you choose to go to be eternally separated from God. I don't need to know you anymore than I do now to know you want to go to Hell. Since your accusation is unproven and the word of God is proven, it stands to reason how I know you are going to Hell because you want to. I've assumed nothing and you know you are hostile to God.
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Is it really surprising the amount of people who come back from the dead in mythologies and tales world-wide form the beginning of times, and the complete and absolute lack of definite resurrections we have witnessed in what, 150 years of intensive medical study? You'd think SOMEone would have turned up with a recently undead person. Until that day as we can see dead people coming back to life, I will probably not believe in it.
There are no resurrection accounts prior to Jesus, that's why you can't find any. Resurrections are only done by God; they are not naturalistic so it would be illogical for you to look for a naturalistic resurrection. That would explain your inability to find any on par with what Jesus did in religio-historical context. The best proof in the world for God of the Bible is the resurrection proof. Since you can find no naturalistic explanation to account for their testimony this is the proof Jesus is God.
What is further interesting is we have very well documented cases of people who have flat lined for a half an hour or more and they could see things happening they couldn't have known otherwise while they were clinically dead. I have no way to explain this other than God's supernatural hand was involved to prove to people the after-life.
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Do you then agree that it is indeed God who sends people to hell?
Technically you send yourself to Hell. God just facilitates your desire and judges you.
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Ummm, no again, this is a false dichotomy. The man who invented the fallacy of the "Lord, liar, or lunatic" was a very smart person indeed, to so well coin a term that has become so immensely popular, in spite of being entirely devoid of logic.
You're boring, for you call something a false dichotomy but you never make any attempt to show it. Boring. It stands since the Lord was not a liar, nor a lunatic then He is God.
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I didn't assume virtual particles have no cause, I'm just saying we (or I, maybe theoretical physicists somewhere in the world understand it very well) don't know yet, and that such things might pose a problem to the cause/effect philosophy.
As for the big bang, we cannot know what happened before it, not for now at least. If I led you into a black room in a city on the other end of the room, and I asked you who was previously in the room, you would have no way of knowing. That's where we are at right now with the big bang. We can't look behind it, we can't see what happened before it. We have no idea. I just think it's dishonest to posit the existence of a deity when the correct answer should be "we don't know".
We do know virtual particles have a cause because that which does not exist can't cause anything. And we observe trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, an overwhelming preponderance beyond a reasonable doubt so that's a solid. We know the Big bang was caused by the uncreated Creator, because it likewise can't come from nothing nor can nature always have existed. What is at the other end of your magical city must have a cause, for it can't come from nothing. The false approach is to shut your mind down and say you can't know, for we do know that nature always has a cause and that something can't come from nothing and nature can't always have existed, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space being uncreated whom we call God. You're just being dishonest. Everybody knows this proof.
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1) Because it's so fascinating and interesting, the way each religion is geographically isolated and is more often than not inextricably linked with the cultural heritage of the people who hold those beliefs. 2) I do, and until such time as I receive conclusive evidence for the truth of a certain religion over all the others, I will remain an atheist.
Regions can be quite geographic naturally since people live geographically, but why should that stop a person from accepting God's common grace, rejecting the idols worshiped by others around us, and accepting the God of the mountains and the stars? For surely if you accepted God you would accept His Son if presented the word of God. You're already coming to the table dishonestly because you are an atheist which claims God does not exist, but you admit you have no evidence for your claim. So why assume? Since you can't find a disproof for the proof for God and who God is then why shut your mind down? Your faith contradicts the evidence.
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but I am very nearly illiterate when it comes to the historicity of any religion in great detail.
I'm not sure you understand what you mean. You are free to continue to shut your mind down, but just know that that won't be a valid excuse for rejecting God.
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I completely agree. However, it does not mean one can safely ignore the possibility of there being a fallacy.
All right, how much historical evidence is there outside of religious texts for Jesus' existence? Also, no naturalistic explanation doesn't automatically default to "God dunnit", you don't hear theoretical physicists unable to combine the theory of gravity with quantum theory go out in the streets screaming "God is holding the universe together because we can't figure it out!" I do admit I will have to do more research on that subject though.
Who is ignoring the possibility of there being a fallacy other than you since you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the eyewitness testimony of the Apostles and you can't find fault with the proof for God? There are 45 ancient sources (17 of which are non-Christian) within 150 years of Jesus death on the life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension and deity of Jesus. Jesus is documented more than any ten people combined from antiquity. Yes, God did it since you can find no naturalistic explanation for their eyewitness testimony. Jesus said it was Him and His Father by the Spirit who did it. Scientists don't say God did it when they can't understand something or reconcile scientific findings, but what they do say is God did it because of the proof for God, specifically the God of the Bible since the God of the Bible is proven by the resurrection proof. The lawyer in the Guinness Book of Records who won 245 cases in a row said this is the best case he has ever seen evidentially.
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For the sake of the argument I'll let that slide.
Uh huh, and how many other religions have you extensively studied as much as christianity?
Without studying any other religions you know Christianity is true by the resurrection proof; thus, you know all other religions are false. It doesn't matter how much you study other religions. God would not place that demand on you.
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Not really, because he doesn't give the option to co-exist peacefully and to have a respectful disagreement of opinions. If Nazis had the same attitude, they would kill all people who would not join their regime. How is that different from sending all the people from other religions to hell for not believing in God?
It's unhealthy for sinless people to be around to infect us. God loves His people and wants no harm to come to them, no unloving word or thought directed at us, so He sends you to Hell. God lets you co-exist with us for a time before the New City and New Earth. How unrighteous of you to want sinners to be with saints for eternity. What love is that? Nazis are like Atheists in their natural selection. Like Atheists Nazis are sinners and evil going to Hell. While God is righteous in sending Nazis, yourself and materialists to Hell so you can do no more harm to God's people, you and Nazis would not be righteous in sending God's people to Hell and you get to go to heaven. What blessing is there in a world run by Nazis and materialists?
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Indeed I don't, and I shouldn't have said 'you' specifically, more a sense as 'even if one refuses to see the possibilities...' etc.
Why overassume there is a mysterious explanation as yet unrevealed to explain away the eyewitness testimonies of the Apostles? By golly, I think you've just found another reason to be atheist! Why overassume the existence of a being outside of time and space, causing but somehow uncaused, who is intelligent, has a mind and a purpose, yet no body, and who loves us enough to offer his son in a human sacrifice to rid us of the sin he let us be contaminated with in the first place? You're right, I shall not overassume God.
Jokes aside, I don't think we'll agree on this. I see life through 'atheistic lenses' you see life through 'christian lenses'. Short of deconverting/converting one another, I don't think we'll agree, so why not just agree to disagree?
A mind is needed to create a mind. The lesser can't create the greater. Since nature needs a cause outside of itself and nature is time and space, then the cause must be timeless and spaceless thus uncreated. This is whom we call God who is personal and relational. What reason did you give for being an atheist you never said (hostility)? Free will would not truly be free if you didn't have the choice to be contaminated. That which is created is created; what is not created is uncreated logically speaking. Why think we don't agree to disagree? Of course we disagree. The problem is the burden is on you since the proof is given and you shut your mind down to the proof at the same time believing in what you believe in without any proof. How belligerent can you be?
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God was pretty absent in my life too. I daresay God (with a capital G) is also absent in the hearts of the majority of the human population, since christians only make up about 1/3 of the what, 8 billion people who share this planet with us?
Yes, christian beliefs 101. I get the picture. I just don't believe it, is all. Again, agree to disagree?
God is only absent from your life to the extent you are lover of the world and shut your mind down to reality. The same is true for anyone who loves the god of this world and not the Creator. There are 7 billion people on the planet not 8 billion. Christians make up less than 1% of the population not 1/3. You're confused. The New City is only 1379 x 1379 miles, not nearly big enough to save as many as you claim are saved. Have you noticed you are wrong virtually in everything you think? That's the nature of someone going to Hell.
You are free to believe whatever you want. The important point is you have no reason to believe what you believe, and you were unable to overturn the evidence given. Ask yourself the question if there was evidence for God would you believe? Noticed you hesitated indicating that it is not an evidential issue at all, but a heart issue. Your heart is cold and your spirit is dead to God just as you want it to be. You're a bad guy going to Hell is all. And frankly, you are exceedingly boring to talk to.
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How very nice of you. You don't know me, I wouldn't wish the death of a single person (although in some cases it would be a practical solution, there is still an element of humanism one has to consider) and yet you say I am partly responsible for the death of Jesus (FYI I am neither roman nor jewish, and as far as I can tell neither were my ancestors) and seem oddly content that I will be tortured and burned and maimed for all of eternity in a pit of fiery hell. I wouldn't wish hell on the worst person on earth, yet you seem perfectly content to claim a perfect stranger whom you do not know will be tortured forever while at the same time claiming you are saved. Doesn't seem too consistent with 'Love one another as I have loved you' hm?
I would not wish upon my worse enemy to go where you are going. The reason why Christians tell you the truth is because of love and we don't want you to perish. You have the same spirit of those who murdered Jesus. You claim this fire you are going to burn in forever is like a natural fire, but what natural fire burns forever? You're not thinking straight. You're confused. This fire is one of judgment you will suffer in for eternity in Hell. You keep blaming me for the fact you are going to Hell when the blame is on you. Appreciate the fact that the Hell you are going to is very much appropriate for your desire to eternally separate yourself from God. A person who loves tells the truth as I have told you. The gospel of salvation is the truth and part of the gospel is those who reject Christ are going to Hell with you. Eternal blessings have no sin in it.
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You didn't, I'm just saying the two were eerily similar.
As for natural selection, it was misunderstood and misapplied under Hitler. Today, we know it is impossible to achieve a handicap-free 'race' of humans through eugenics, because population genetics just don't work that way, and because there is no 'race' of humans, only a single species. If I said that christianity was a religion to capture the masses and be able to launch crusades, witch-hunts and sanctions inquisitions without fear, you'd tell me those people are not real christians, they don'T understand the bible. Well, Hitler didn't understand evolution either. Notice I'm not saying evolution is scot-free either, many people have suffered through the ages because of misunderstandings and mis-applications.
Since you showed no similarity and how the similarity of Atheism matches Nazism, you put yourself into a quandary. It shouldn't matter how Hitler views natural selection since all he and you do are natural selection anyway. It is natural selection to misunderstand natural selection by thinking you can misunderstand natural selection which is just natural selection in your faith and Hitler's faith. Christians never launched any of these things you confuse with. You seem to think everyone who calls himself a Christian is. You couldn't be farther from the truth. Christians believe in evolution so why argue they don't? The problem is where does evolution come from for obviously it doesn't come from nothing.
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Therefore, you can happily sit still as the world burns around you, so long as you have faith, even if you don't help the poor orphans trapped in the building next to you whom you could easily save, no, you just have to believe and you'll get to heaven. Pardon me, but that philosophy (saved through faith alone) is repulsive to me. It carries no moral impetus to do good, merely to think good thoughts.
It is more likely if you commit heinous sin you were never saved to begin with. God restrains His elect from doing such things. Do you see how you view things in such a warped way because the evil spirit resides in your innerman? Your warped view is repulsive, and self-exalting, to think you can save yourself by your works and self-strength. What a great man you must be! Only an infinitely great God could satisfy salvation through His Son. God has a requirement in His perfect nature to redeem a person before fellowship can take place. He does not fellowship with independency and hostility and self-exalted man in his works. You need to be delivered from your self-righteous self as well as your unrighteous self because it all at its center is centered on the selfish you and not on your Creator.
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Also, God is not the first deity to send his son in sacrifice to save humans. Also notice that the sacrifice really wasn't so great. I mean, is it a great sacrifice for superman to jump into a flaming building, when we know full well he's darn near invulnerable? Isn't the sacrifice of a merely mortal fireman worth so much more? Consider Prometheus, who for no personal gains whatsoever, decided to bring fire to mankind. He was punished by other gods to have his liver eaten by a raven while he was alive, daily, for the rest of eternity. THAT is sacrifice. Sacrifice comes with a sense of personal risk. Jesus had none.
Yes, God of the Bible is the first deity to ever send His son to die for the sins of the world. Jesus fully man suffered every suffering thing we could suffer. It was immensely painful. There is no evidence for your Greek gods so why believe in them without evidence?
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Or they could all be wrong.
Also, isn't it telling that all the other religions say exactly the same thing as you, but that theirs is the true religion, all the others are just unsupported myths?
We know without knowing anything else that only one religion must be true for God can't have standards below our own as He reveals Himself personally as we are personal. Only in Christianity do we find just such a personal God where all others are distant and unproven.
For another religion to say the exact same thing as I am saying would exactly be Christianity so it wouldn't be another religion at all. Only in Christianity do we discover the resurrection proof proving Jesus is God. No other religion has this. Praise the Lord!
