How Can those Alive be Raptured and Proceed Those Who are Asleep?
Re: Roy @ YouTube
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Originally Posted by Roy
First, on the rapture. You believe in a partial rapture I see. This is stunning to me. 1. Thessalonians 4 makes that idea utterly impossible. Why? Because Paul, speaking to the church said "the dead in Christ shll rise first, and then we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall be caught up together..." The dead in Christ must be resurrected first.
Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth.
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I am sure you believe this because of Revelation 3 "because you have kept the word of my patience, I shall also KEEP YOU FROM..." Now, does that verse say "I will receive you to myself?" No. Does it say anything about a rapture as the means?
Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23). Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of” (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.
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The diffusing of this verse as having to do with a complete or partial rapture is found in John 17 where Jesus prayed, "I pray NOT that you take them out of the world, but that you KEEP THEM FROM the evil. The same Greek word "ek" OK. Now the partial rapture error is corrected.
The word "from" is just a simple proposition so context is key. John 17.15 is about keeping from evil and not rapturing everyone this moment, after all Jesus will return to reign on earth so He wants people on earth; whereas Rev. 3.10 is being kept out of the world, for it says, in order to escape the hour of trial, one needs to keep the word of His patience. This is a guarantee. But as you know there will be martyrs during the Tribulation; even the most spiritual Christians will be martyred. So how can God make such a promise for death is not a means of keeping from the hour of trial. It certainly is no blessing to be murdered. Hence, the only other way is by rapture.
I've answered your concerns hundreds if not thousands of times to others, and I always give the same answer.
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Now, do you have the view that man chooses whether or not he will be saved? That salvation is a choice of man's will and it is within all men's capacity in this world to make this choice when and if they want?
Roy
Yes "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live" (Deut. 30.19).
