An Attempt to Disprove God

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06-16-2007, 06:01 PM
Jamal

An Attempt to Disprove God

Hi.

If Adam and Eve had two sons, how did they make a next generation?

In the flood that Noah withstood, where did all the water come from? Where did it go?

1. If God is omnipotent, then He can do anything.
2. Therefore, God can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it.
3. But if He cannot lift it, then He is not omnipotent (because that is one thing He cannot do).
4. And If He cannot create such a rock, then He is likewise not omnipotent.
5. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent.

Why did God need a rest on the seventh day?

Why did he put the forbidden fruit-tree in the Garden of Eden?

If God made us, he knows how we would react to situations. He made us who we are, he knows what we're going to do. Why does he need to test us before sending us to heaven/hell?

Why does he refuse to prove his existence?

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows that evil exists.
4. If God is omnibenevolent, then God will eliminate all evil.
5. Hence, if God exist, then there will be no evil.
06-16-2007, 06:27 PM
Faithful

Adam and Eve were not the two only Adamic souls on the planet. All men and women were in Adam at the point of Adam and Eve created with a spirit of God-consciousness. Their sin instantly spread to everyone.

Noah's flood was a local flood. When land gives way it creates a flood, but over time it will subside down.

By God being able to do anything does not mean He will do it, for He can't go against His righteousness and holiness.

Therefore, God remains omnipotent. By the way, why are you arguing against God when you say you believe in the god of Islam? The same argument you are using against God of the Bible is against your god too.

The forbidden fruit is of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God knows these things, but man does not, so God says don't eat of it. If it is not allowed to be eaten then man does not have free-will and becomes just a robot which could not glorify God.

God is not testing us as you say, but rather, He made us perfectly. Our fall from grace needs a salvation, not a testing.

God fully proved His existence. Notice the exponential progression in conscience to know that there could not be an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Hence, the uncreated creator God created.

The reason God made us is because it is out of His glory and He wants to walk with His sons and daughters. How beautiful and wonderful this is! We are made for Him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamal

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows that evil exists.
4. If God is omnibenevolent, then God will eliminate all evil.
5. Hence, if God exist, then there will be no evil.

This is false reasoning. If God exists then He must be omnipotent? No. Who says? Where's you reasoning? Again, God will eliminate evil, but not according to man's timing, but according to God's righteous way of doing things. Not by magic, but by spiritual reality. This response should cause you to see how shallow your reasoning is.

God Resting the 7th Day is to Show a Perfect Work

"And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it he rested from all his work which God had created [bara] and made" (2.3). To "create" is to "call the things that are not, as though they were" (Rom. 4.17). These sea-monsters and living things not only had physical bodies but also had an animated life within them. They therefore required a direct creative act of God. Thus it is only reasonable that the Scriptures should use the word "created" rather than the word "made" in these passages. In similar manner, though man’s body was formed out of the dust of the ground, his soul and spirit could not be made out of any physical material, and hence the Bible declared that "God created man in his own image."

Chapter 2.1-3 should really be an extension of chapter 1. On the seventh day God finished His work and rested. One thing worth noticing here is that the rest mentioned is God’s rest, not man’s. The Bible declares that this is God’s sabbath. God had worked for six days, and now He rested. This rest, however, was not physical, because God is never tired: "Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard? The everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary" (Is. 40.28). What, then, is the meaning of His rest? It is not physical but spiritual in nature. It signifies God’s satisfaction. As He looked at what He had made and saw that all of it was very good, He was satisfied. All who study the Scriptures carefully should understand the meaning of God’s rest. He had not set up the sabbath for man to keep, for man had done no work yet and therefore had no need to rest. Only after Adam sinned did he begin working (Gen. 3.19). Before he had sinned, Adam did not need to rest on the seventh day. Therefore, today we neither keep the sabbath of the children of Israel (for such belongs to the law) nor keep the sabbath of God’s creation (for He had not given this day to man).

Another matter calls for our attention. With respect to the six preceding days it was always recorded that "there was evening and there was morning"; on this seventh day—the day of rest—there is no such record. After God had finished His work, He rested in the eternal day which is always day and never night. This rest is a type of the eternal rest (Heb. 4.3) in which all who labor with God shall rest eternally in that unending nightless day. The very thought of this should make our hearts glad.

"And he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made" (2.2). The heavens and the earth and all the hosts of them therein that were created or made were finished. Spiritually speaking, God’s work of redemption is done; so now there is nothing left but rest.

The Seventh Day’s Work Signifies the Lord Jesus in Eternity

On the seventh day, we saw no work performed by God (Gen. 2.1-3). There was neither word spoken nor work done. For the words had already been uttered and the works had all been accomplished. And thus there was neither need to speak nor to work. Nothing was now left to do except to indulge in divine satisfaction, to look back over the works of the Six Days and find it all good. The heart was satisfied because everything which needed to be done had been done. And with satisfaction now came rest. Satisfaction of the heart brought rest to the heart. The rest of the heart naturally carried with it the rest and peace of the whole being. As we have mentioned before, this day was different from the preceding six days because it had neither evening nor morning. The dark evening was forever past, and so was the morning. It now was eternal day.

The millennial kingdom is shall be past when our eternal rest is at hand. Except for rest, there is nothing else. Such is to be the state of the new heaven and the new earth and New Jerusalem. The former darkness and misery will have passed away. Even the best of the bygone days cannot be compared with this rest, even as the morning cannot be compared with the noonday. At that time, the work of the Lord Jesus is fully done: old things will have forever passed away and eternity lies ahead. "Then cometh the end, when he [Christ] shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power . . . that God may be all in all" (1 Cor. 15.24-28). Amen!

The rest on the seventh day is a type of the new heaven and the new earth in eternity upon the conclusion of the millennial kingdom. Seven dispensations since Adam will have passed. What then is left is the sabbath. Hence the sabbath cannot be a figure of the millennial kingdom, since the latter will not yet be a time of rest. Even the millennium has not yet started. In the Creation story told of in Genesis, we find that on the sabbath or seventh day God rested from all His works (2.2). Spiritually speaking, God awaits the new heaven and the new earth before He can rest forever.

In the Genesis account of the Creation, there was no more day after the seventh day. For all works had been done, and God’s heart desire had all been realized. So that God blessed this day as a day of rest. According to God’s plan of restoration, symbolically speaking there are only seven days, after which there will be no more day. The work of redemption is finished and everything in God’s eternal plan has been accomplished. There need be no more time to follow upon this perfect work of God. God simply appreciates and blesses what He has done. It is indeed true that He cannot rest before the time of the new heaven and the new earth because His work of redemption has not had its full effect. He will only rest when He sees all whom He has redeemed perfectly joined to the One Perfect Man, even Christ with all authority and blessing. This is eternity. Eternity is nothing less than resting in God’s satisfaction and approval forever.
06-17-2007, 03:01 AM
Jamal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithful

By God being able to do anything does not mean He will do it, for He can't go against His righteousness and holiness.

I'm not saying he will. He won't, because he can't.
06-17-2007, 03:21 AM
Faithful

Of course He can't, that's is the point! It is against His nature to do something unrighteous, unholy, unrealistic, ridiculous and pointless. That's what distinguishes Him from your idol. Your god has the gall to call Jesus a liar that He would not die on the cross and resurrect as He and the prophets prophesied He would and disciples testified He did!

You lose, so much so that hell awaits you.
06-17-2007, 11:31 AM
Jamal

So everything he does -- every single thing -- is holy, realistic, and has a point?
06-17-2007, 12:13 PM
Faithful

Yes, as has always been the case, giving you no reason to think otherwise.
03-11-2009, 04:11 PM
DD2014

Quote:

Adam and Eve were not the two only Adamic souls on the planet. All men and women were in Adam at the point of Adam and Eve created with a spirit of God-consciousness. Their sin instantly spread to everyone.

That does not scientifically explain how two people could give rise to 6 six billion. If this is true then technically incest is not a sin because it is inevitable

Quote:

Noah's flood was a local flood. When land gives way it creates a flood, but over time it will subside down.

Yes but in the Bible or the "word of God" it says (genesis 7:4 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." ) God would not lie to us and say he destroyed everything that he made if he did not. That would be false and if God or his word can be false then it loses credibility.

Quote:

By God being able to do anything does not mean He will do it, for He can't go against His righteousness and holiness.

But that does not answer the question. What Jamal is saying is, if God can do anything, he would not be able to make a rock that he can't move because if he can't move it then he cannot do anything and that dissproves that he can do anything.

Quote:

God is not testing us as you say, but rather, He made us perfectly. Our fall from grace needs a salvation, not a testing.

But we need to pass the test of life to recive our salvation. So acording to the bible we need both. If he made us perfectly why does everyone born after Adam and Eve has what I call the "sickness of the spirt" and the only cure is in a religion? To me this does not sound perfect, it actually sound really bad like we are all born with some type of cancer, just because someone thousands of years ago messed up once.

Quote:

God fully proved His existence. Notice the exponential progression in conscience to know that there could not be an eternity of the past of cause and effects. Hence, the uncreated creator God created.

Ok if you are saying that a conscience is proof of God. What about the people with no conscience? Were they created by something else and not God? Or did God screw up when he made them? Conscience is imbedded in our brains because we were taught that things are wrong, if we do one of these things then we feel bad because you are intentionally doing something "wrong". If you can justify something that would normally bother someone then you have defeted your conscience and the only proof of God.
03-11-2009, 05:48 PM
Faithful

Quote:

Originally Posted by DD2014

That does not scientifically explain how two people could give rise to 6 six billion. If this is true then technically incest is not a sin because it is inevitable

Who says Adam and Eve were brother and sister? There were about 20,000 pre-Adamic men (men and women) on the planet at the split moment before Adam and Eve approximately 4000 years ago when God breathed the breath of life that directly created man's spirit (given God-consciousness) and when made contact with the body (formed from "dust" Gen. 2.7), the soul life (fully formed self-consciousness) was produced. At that moment or shortly thereafter all men were in Adam. Adam fell and brought sin into the whole world.

Quote:

Yes but in the Bible or the "word of God" it says (genesis 7:4 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." ) God would not lie to us and say he destroyed everything that he made if he did not. That would be false and if God or his word can be false then it loses credibility.

This is within their perspective of their world. People say Rome goes to the ends of the earth, but it doesn't really. So the animals in South America are left untouched and there was not that great flood there. You need to try to get out of your petty self, which you need to be delivered from for which only God can do, and try to put yourself in their shoes, how God is speaking to them at that time. Try not to be a bad lawyer trying to get off on some technicality, because that is an unethical approach. As far as they know their world is the whole world and all the creatures in it and so God speaks to them according to their knowledge.

Quote:

But that does not answer the question. What Jamal is saying is, if God can do anything, he would not be able to make a rock that he can't move because if he can't move it then he cannot do anything and that dissproves that he can do anything.

Can God make a circle a square? Of course not, so the point is mute. I am not arguing to you that God can make a circle a square. Try to understand. Take for example salvation. God could send you to Hell and never give you any opportunity to be saved because sin leads to the second death and you are a sinner, but because He is a merciful and gracious God, He does all He can to save you and only sends you to Hell if you leave this world still having denied Christ. If you leave God no other option, you will go to Hell. It goes against God's nature not to do all He can to plead with you for your salvation. Therefore, know you would truly belong in Hell. At the same time, conceivably He could coerce you into salvation like Calvinists teach, but this goes against His nature as well, for there would not then be free-will. God never goes against His goodly nature.

Quote:

But we need to pass the test of life to recive our salvation. So acording to the bible we need both. If he made us perfectly why does everyone born after Adam and Eve has what I call the "sickness of the spirt" and the only cure is in a religion? To me this does not sound perfect, it actually sound really bad like we are all born with some type of cancer, just because someone thousands of years ago messed up once.

There is no works based life test. That is not Biblical at all. There is simply the choice that is afforded to you that whosoever is willing can received the blessed gift of eternal life and forgiveness of sins. You can see your free-will is really truly free to have the choice. Whatever you want. If you don't want what Jesus did for you by denying it in the way you rationalize it away, that is your choice in bringing yourself to Hell.

The cure is not what you think of religion as, but by what Jesus did for you on the cross. The reason why everyone without exception has this disease is because, as you logically think it through, that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

You have an additional problem, because you admit this condition of humanity does exist, but you are effectively accusing atheism of being false, because it nonetheless happens anyway. Do you not see that is being double minded on your part? You accuse God but not atheism. Your atheism, admittedly, is "messed up," but God is not saying He has messed up by allowing mankind to exist even though the first man and woman were disobedient, independent and brought sin into the world. God has a choice to end humanity or for God to provide His redemptive design so that whoever wants to be in the New City can be and whoever doesn't want salvation can go to Hell. God gives you the choice. Complain all the way to Hell and in Hell for eternity if you like. It's your choice. Sounds awfully negative though. Your negativity is without the love, peace, and joy of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:

Ok if you are saying that a conscience is proof of God. What about the people with no conscience? Were they created by something else and not God? Or did God screw up when he made them? Conscience is imbedded in our brains because we were taught that things are wrong, if we do one of these things then we feel bad because you are intentionally doing something "wrong". If you can justify something that would normally bother someone then you have defeted your conscience and the only proof of God.

Everybody has a conscience. Your conscience is one of the three main functions of your spirit and where God enters the window through into your intuition to commune with you once you are born-again. It is not the fact that we have a conscience, but the observation of an exponential progression of conscience which tells us there cannot be an eternity of the past of cause and effects, because mankind would not still be sinning to the extent it still does.

Conscience is the minimum standard God has set for you. Your brain is a physical term for the related term, mind, which is one of the functions of your soul. The soul is at its deepest point in the blood like the deepest parts of say a computer, for man is going to get a resurrected body, therefore, the mind is not dependent on the fleshly brain.

If you do something that upsets someone you may not have violated your conscience, because God wants you to judge that person in that way, because that other person is not listening to his own conscience.
03-12-2009, 01:14 PM
DD2014

Quote:

Who says Adam and Eve were brother and sister?

Well I did not say that they were bro and sis. If you and your husband/wife were the only people on earth and you had 10 kids. Your kids would end up having sex with each other because there is no one else to procreate with. Everyone ends up related to you.

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There were about 20,000 pre-Adamic men (men and women) on the planet at the split moment before Adam and Eve approximately 4000 years ago

I don't understand? Are you saying that God made more people, other then Adam and Eve at the time of the Garden of Eden?

Quote:

This is within their perspective of their world. People say Rome goes to the ends of the earth, but it doesn't really. So the animals in South America are left untouched and there was not that great flood there. You need to try to get out of your petty self, which you need to be delivered from for which only God can do, and try to put yourself in their shoes, how God is speaking to them at that time. Try not to be a bad lawyer trying to get off on some technicality, because that is an unethical approach. As far as they know their world is the whole world and all the creatures in it and so God speaks to them according to their knowledge.

I understand what you are saying. But I still think that in the case of Noah it is too important of a subject not to explain what actually happened. Not everyone that read the the book of Genesis lived in the region where the flood is thought to have happened. So they end up thinking something happend that did not. If you actually read the Bible you'll find so many things that are harder to understand then just a local flood. Yet God did not make those any easier to understand.

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God could send you to Hell and never give you any opportunity to be saved because sin leads to the second death and you are a sinner, but because He is a merciful and gracious God, He does all He can to save you and only sends you to Hell if you leave this world still having denied Christ. If you leave God no other option, you will go to Hell. It goes against God's nature not to do all He can to plead with you for your salvation. Therefore, know you would truly belong in Hell. At the same time, conceivably He could coerce you into salvation like Calvinists teach, but this goes against His nature as well, for there would not then be free-will. God never goes against His goodly nature.

Well thats your opinion. Look if God is all powerful and he can see into my heart, he can see what kind of person I am, why would he send me to hell because I don't think that the Bible is accurate? Why can't he see that his book is not 100% accurate and that me being a rational person cannot live my life by something that can't be misunderstood, mistranslated, or writen for a neolithic people thousands of years ago? Do you understand?

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There is no works based life test. That is not Biblical at all. There is simply the choice that is afforded to you that whosoever is willing can received the blessed gift of eternal life and forgiveness of sins. You can see your free-will is really truly free to have the choice.

Well we both agree that "biblically" Jesus had to die to wash our sins away right? If so, our free-will is our life test. if you are a genocidal maniac it does not matter if you belive jesus died for your sins, your chances of getting into heaven are slim to none. You did not follow the rules, you did it out of your own free-will. You would fail the test of life. (Not being "doubleminded" I'm just playing devils advocate)

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The cure is not what you think of religion as, but by what Jesus did for you on the cross.

So when Jesus died, he cured all our souls?

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You have an additional problem, because you admit this condition of humanity does exist, but you are effectively accusing atheism of being false, because it nonetheless happens anyway. Do you not see that is being double minded on your part? You accuse God but not atheism.

But I don't belive that, because I don't belive we have souls. If we don't have souls how can they get sick? I am playing devils advocate, I am trying to ask you questions in a way that will not offend you. I also use opinionative speech like, "sounds to me like" I am not saying that something is or is not. I am saying what is sounds like to me. So please don't call me a hypocrite or doubleminded because I know what I belive just like you do.

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Conscience is the minimum standard God has set for you. Your brain is a physical term for the related term, mind, which is one of the functions of your soul.

Ok do you know about feral people? They have been living as animals and have no perspective of what is right and what is wrong. They are like animals, without conscience.
03-13-2009, 12:35 AM
Churchwork

Since Adam and Eve were not the only two people on earth, then you argument is wasted. Adam and Eve are the first God-conscious Adamic souls. Don't think they were instantly created, but rather, the dust forming the body over billions of years and through pre-Adamic man reached the point of about 6000 years ago. God has His man made in His image by breathing His breath into that body which directly created man's spirit. When it made contact with the body the soul life was formed. Man has two inner life's. The soul life and the spirit life in addition to the physical life. All in the pre-endemic period became souls made in God's image. Just as all men are in Adam, all new men are in Christ. Try to understand.

I have read the whole Bible and understood it all from beginning to end. It is actually quite easy to understand. Perhaps trying using the New Living Translation, which is in today's English, with the most popular Bible study even produced: Life Application Study Bible.

At the time of writing in Genesis everyone in that region was under the influence of the flood who could have read the words of the flood in Genesis in subsequent generations. It reached to the ends of their world.

God is sending you to Hell not because you think the Bible is inaccurate, even though you haven't been able to show it, but because you reject His only begotten Son, and you do this because your heart is cold and sinful and self-exalted. He can see your heart is not a heart that belongs in Heaven but Hell. Your choice. Inerrancy is not a valid argument, but it is your lame excuse.

God wants to spend eternity with a people. If you don't want to be one of those people, you don't have to be. You can go to the dimension called Hell.

The Bible is quite clear to distinguish what you call a test as works from the choice by faith. You are not saved by such works, lest any many should boast.

When Jesus died on the cross, He made available to you complete forgiveness if you want it genuinely where your spirit would be quickened with God's life and your soul would be renewed--your thinking made clear and this is a life long process but first you must enter the doorway He would like you to enter.

You admitted man is sinful whether or not you think we have souls. You need to start finding out what is true instead of always being the Devil's advocate, for eventually being the Devil's advocate brings you to Hell where the Devil is going. Surely admit people do things which are harmful to themselves and can make them sick which is one of the effects of some sins. The reason your are double minded is because you take two opposite positions which contradict each other instead of just letting the evidence lead you where it may. Always playing Devil's advocate is an untenable position, because once the preponderance evidence leads to a particular direction, you should go there in the proof of the resurrection.

Every human being on the planet has a conscience. God has written the law on everyone's heart, even some people on a remote island somewhere, so you are without excuse. Whether all a person only ever had general grace and no specific Biblical grace, that is still ample grace. A person on a remote island who did not like the idols being worshiped by the people, believed in the God who created the mountains and the stars. He would be saved, for if he was shown the Word, he would surely accept Him because that is the God he believes in. There is perfect agreement.