How to Judaize Christianity

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Should anyone tell you: "You must keep the law, you must keep the Sabbath day", you ought to realize that if you try to keep one single item in the book of law you unwittingly declare that Christ has not died for you, and therefore you cast away the work of Christ.

---

To which I ask, if I ever love God or my neighbor, which are items in the book of the law, by doing so then do I declare, as you assert, that Christ has not died for me, and I have also casted away the work of Christ? So then are you saying we are not to keep the command to love God or our neighbor? I hope not. :)

Quote:

---

I have no problem you saying you are under the law, but you contradict God's Word if you then say you are a Christian.

---

Agreed. For to be under the law is to be under the curse of the law, is to be condemned, is to be unsaved. That is what "under the law means" condemned. Just because one chooses to love God, however, doesn't mean they are "under the law." Instead "under the law" is a condition, not an action. It's a condition of being condemned as a sinner, and it does not mean that it is the actions of obedience to God's commandments such as "love the LORD your God." For if to be under the law is to obey the law, then all Christians who love their neighbor are under the law! But this is not the case, because obedience to God's commandments is not the definition of being "under the law." On the contrary, one who is under the law is most likely one who is actually NOT obeying God's commandments at all, for he is unregenerate!

Quote:

---

Christians don't reject the law, we accept Christ came to fill up the law. Messianics Judaize Christianity. Christians don't despise Christianity.

---

Sadly the Messianic you were dealing with totally misses the mark of how to address this issue, and probably fails to realize that even Christians obey the law if they too love God!

Quote:

---

Christians don't follow so-called church fathers, for the Bible says call no man your father. Messianics reject the teachings of the Apostles and that the Messiah already came.

---

On the contrary, some who claim to be Messianic may reject the teachings of the Apostles, but not the one's I know. In fact, the Apostle Paul is our chief spokesperson. On a side note, Jesus wasn't saying that one couldn't call their own dad, "Father." The exception nullifies the supposed rule. Instead in context he was addressing disciples calling their rabbis "Father" per the wacked Jewish tradition to honor one's rabbis more than one's own father.

Quote:

---

Christians remember Jesus was resurrected on Sunday and often congregate on the day of resurrection to breaking bread and fellowship. This is a fact, it is the first day of the week, a new day wholly unlike the day that was to be kept for Israel (Sabbath as a sign of covenant with God) of the old covenant. The day of resurrection is also the 8th day of the week. 8 stands for resurrection.

---

Actually, just for a point of fact, Jesus rose on the Feast of Firstfruits, as the firstfruit of the living, and this day is on a different day of the week every year.

Quote:

---

The NT says anything can be eaten if it is healthy for us.

---

I am not exactly sure where that is found in the apostolic writings.

Quote:

---

Messianics reject how Jesus came to fill up the law so that they no longer need be under the old covenant.

---

To be "under the law" is to be cursed, ie, to be condemned, ie, to be unregenerate. It's a condition, not an action.

Quote:

---

Messianics pray to the Devil.

Messianics worship the devil, refuse the Apostles who died on the cross with Christ and were martyred for this testimony of resurrection life.

---

I am interested in how you arrive at that conclusion.

Quote:

---

Messianics seek to divide the body of Christ by attaching themselves to things of Christianity, but they really are unsaved and hell bound because they are trying to Judaize Christianity by trying to keep the law rather than accepting that Jesus came to fill up the law.

---

Which Messianics are you referring to that try to keep the law for salvation sake? Which Christianity doesn't keep the command to "love God"?

Quote:

---

The book and rules and creed of Messianics is to reject God's Word that the Messiah has come to die on the cross for your to save you from your sins and give you eternal life. They need our prayers.

---

I am interested in knowing what Messianics you've met that place their hope for salvation in their obedience to God's instructions in how to love God and others, at the expense of faith alone in Messiah's death for their sins, burial, and resurrection to eternal life? In fact, all the Messianics I have met keep God's law such as "love God" and "love your neighbor" to not to keep, earn, or maintain salvation, but because they simply love God and are responding to his love for them. They keep God's law not to get saved, but because they are saved. I am interested in knowing who you've talked to that has communicated to you other wise. :) In fact, most Messianic's I know fit in the category of "saints" as described by John the Revelator:

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

If John doesn't see this as conflict or problem with stating this as a definition of "the saints," why should we? In case you need a second witness, he describes the saints the same way a few chapters back in Revelation 12:17 as well.

Surely love God, for where does God say love is filled up with something else? But the Holy Spirit has filled up the Sabbath because the veil is now rent. By trying to be under the law, you will die by the law and continue to not receive indwelling Holy Spirit. Messianics try to be saved by a false Christ because they still try to keep the law by trying to keep the Sabbath, even some want to reinstate animal sacrifices. So while Christians are fellowshipping on Sundays, the Lord's day (and other days without restrictions of a Sabbath), you separate yourself from the body of Christ by insisting you ought to still keep the law and Judaize Christianity with Satan's Sabbath. This is not your consecration, but your separation from God and His people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Surely love God, for where does God say love is filled up with something else? But the Holy Spirit has filled up the Sabbath because the veil is now rent.

---

Jesus says keeping the Sabbath is an act of love of God, or do you disagree that this is what he means when he says all the Torah and Prophets hang from the two greatest commandments?

Regarding the Veil, it separated between the holy of holines, and the most holy place. It's renting on earth, would symbolize that access to God has been made on earth; yet why does the Jerusalem Council and Paul himself continue to offer sacrifices there (in Acts 22), well after Messiah has risen from the dead and ascended into heaven? Surely they know, if as you assert that they did so know, they would be declaring Christ of no effect by their offering. I am intersted in your perspective on the matter as to why Paul went through with making the offering in the Temple, and paying for other believesr as well to make offerings.

Quote:

---

By trying to be under the law, you will die by the law and continue to not receive indwelling Holy Spirit.

---

If one loves God, do you then say they too are "under the law"? For to love God is a commandment of the law, and is an act of love of God - so I am not sure how you can condemn one who keeps God's commandments out of their love for Him and others, by saying they will not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit if they keep the law concerning "love the LORD your God". Something just does not compute.

Being under law is not an action of obeying it. Far from it, it is a state of being, since one who is under law does not even desire to keep God's commandments. Or do you disagree? What sinners you know enjoy and love to keep any of God's commandments out of love for God (as Jesus taught that it was to be done so for that very reason)?

Quote:

---

Messianics try to be saved by a false Christ because they still try to keep the law by trying to keep the Sabbath, even some want to reinstate animal sacrifices.

---

You have to answer the question then why the Jerusalem church continued to meet in the Temple daily, and even offered sacrifices, and paid for the sacrifices of other believers, well after the time of the resurrection of Jesus.

Quote:

---

So while Christians are fellowshipping on Sundays, the Lord's day (and other days without restrictions of a Sabbath), you separate yourself from the body of Christ by insisting you ought to still keep the law and Judaize Christianity with Satan's Sabbath.

---

Exodus 31:13
You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

Um, how is it that you can say that this is the Devil's Sabbath when the bible is absolutely very clear as to whose Sabbaths they are? If you say the Sabbath is Satan's, then you effectively say the verse above says "I am Satan who makes you holy"? If so, then what bible are you reading from? I do not think that this is what you mean when you say that the Sabbath is Satan's - or are you saying that it is?

And if the LORD is making us holy through his Sabbaths, set apart through his Sabbaths, who do you think we are supposed to obey in this matter? The clear command of God, or the traditions of men to gather on Sunday? Which do you hold to more? The traditions of men, or the clear Word of God? What do you follow more? The traditions of men, or the Word of God, made flesh for you, so He can give you eternal life, and live through you, and Who said "You must observe my Sabbaths...for the geneations to come"?

Hebrews 4 says the rest of the Sabbath now becomes the Christ indwelling by the Holy Spirit. If you don't want this, you are still trying to keep the law, even the Sabbath, and so shall you die by the law.

Paul is appealing to the Jews so he is being one of them to convince them. He is not endorsing continuing human sacrifices or keeping the Sabbath. It's like that old adage, put yourself in someone else's shoes.

I understand your state of being is not in Christ, that is why you try to keep the law that Jesus filled up.

Israel's Sabbaths under the Old Covenant was hers; it is not for us. That is why stores were open on Saturdays but not Sundays. At least let this be a clue. The body of Christ does not have a covenant with God as the first nation He revealed Himself to. That was unto the Jews and sealed by the Sabbath until the coming Messiah.

You have a choice. Be born-again by the grace of God, or keep trying to replace new birth with the keeping of the Sabbath, animal sacrifices or whatever else you do. They are mutually exclusive.

The Jerusalem Council of Peter, James, John and the other Apostles did not condone the Sabbath, but for a time allowed it until the tearing down of the walls of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. when the full transition was felt and realized. And that is why to this day, the Church has never kept a Sabbath.

You're either in a cult unto yourself or attached to some cult who tries to keep the Sabbath. Normally people recognize this as 7th Day Adventists, but you are not one of those you said. Still, you are no less unsaved than they are.

It is very sad to see a person replace Christ for the Sabbath and a false Christ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

you are still trying to keep the law, even the Sabbath, and so shall you die by the law.

---

When a Christian obeys the commandment to "love the LORD your God" are you saying then the Christian will die by the law?

So then are you saying in order for a Christian to avoid dying by the law, they shouldn't love God?

The law of the Sabbath is loving God when you keep it under the Old Covenant, not under the New Covenant, for it was only for the first nation God revealed Himself to as a sign as His chosen people, the first people that He revealed Himself to. The Old Creation has passed. The New Creation is here now.

That is why God is sending you to Hell because you reject the filling up of the Old Covenant by Jesus. Though you judge Christians who work on Saturday because of their various jobs, God condemns you for your false judgment that you puff yourself up with. A Christian could never do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

The law of the Sabbath is loving God when you keep it under the Old Covenant, not under the New Covenant, for it was only for the first nation God revealed Himself to as a sign as His chosen people, the first people that He revealed Himself to. The Old Creation has passed. The New Creation is here now.

That is why God is sending you to Hell because you reject the filling up of the Old Covenant by Jesus. Though you judge Christians who work on Saturday because of their various jobs, God condemns you for your false judgment that you puff yourself up with. A Christian could never do that.

---

Are sinners condemned to death for failing to keep the Sabbath perfectly?

Yes..........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerusalemcouncil

Are sinners condemned to death for failing to keep the Sabbath perfectly?

---

Yes..........

---

If it's a sin then for a sinner to fail to keep the Sabbath perfectly, then does the definition of what is and is not a sin somehow change when that sinner becomes a believer?

No........

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

jerusalemcouncil:
Are sinners condemned to death for failing to keep the Sabbath perfectly?

Churchwork:
Yes.....

jerusalemcouncil:
If it's a sin then for a sinner to fail to keep the Sabbath perfectly, then does the definition of what is and is not a sin somehow change when that sinner becomes a believer?

Churchwork:

No.....

---

If failing to keep the Sabbath is a sin for both the sinner and the believer, then why do you say believers should not keep the Sabbath, and thus commit sin?

By implication you are blatantly telling the saints to commit sin. Is this what you are doing? (If so, then I and any Christian for that matter, should have a right to be concerned.)

Because the Sabbath was for the Jews but no longer, likewise it is not for the Christian since the Holy Spirit is now the Sabbath indwelling.

The way you keep yourself separated from salvation is by trying to keep a law unto yourself which is not even the law of the Sabbath of the Old Covenant just for the Jews back then. For example, if you received a strange message you claimed was from God to sacrifice your son on an altar, obviously that would be wrong. Likewise, trying to keep the Sabbath is wrong. Isaac is a type of Jesus. The Sabbath is a type of Holy Spirit indwelling rest Hebrews 4 says.

If you continue to try to live by the law, you will die by the law and go to Hell. Only the grace of salvation through Christ can save you, and once received, you will no longer try to keep the Sabbath.

So simple a child could understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Because the Sabbath was for the Jews but no longer, likewise it is not for the Christian since the Holy Spirit is now the Sabbath indwelling.

---

So then, do you retract what you said when I asked you:

jerusalemcouncil:
Are sinners condemned to death for failing to keep the Sabbath perfectly?

Churchwork:
Yes.....

I don't retract it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

I don't retract it.

---

Then how can you continue to say:

"Because the Sabbath was for the Jews but no longer, likewise Christians"

if in fact you believe that one who fails to keep the Sabbath, commits a sin, even if they are believer!?!

Are you encouraging people to commit sin, by telling people to not keep the Sabbath, if failing to keep Sabbath is a sin?

There is only one I know who encourages people to sin. And it's not God.

I don't believe you commit a sin if you don't keep the Sabbaths for that was then, this is now. What God is showing you personally is that if you create a law for yourself, whatever that may be, such as to do no work on Saturday's, if you break it even once, let it prove you are a sinner, among other ways to show you are a sinner in need of salvation. Salvation is not going to be received if you try to keep the Sabbath, thus rejecting Christ for the Sabbath points to the rest of the Holy Spirit indwelling.

What does Paul teach concerning the Sabbath? He maintains that the Sabbath is a thing that has passed away: “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross . . . Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s” (Col. 2.14,16-17).

The burden of the proof is on you to show otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

What God is showing you personally is that if you create a law for yourself, whatever that may be, such as to do no work on Saturday's, if you break it even once, let it prove you are a sinner, among other ways to show you are a sinner in need of salvation.

---

So you're saying is that if I believe there is no such thing as law, that I'm not a sinner, as long as I continue to believe there is no such thing as law? That sounds like subjective depravity to me. "I'm condemned only if I think I am." That is not at all scriptural.

Quote:

---

Salvation is not going to be received if you try to keep the Sabbath, thus rejecting Christ for the Sabbath points to the rest of the Holy Spirit indwelling.

---

I am quite unaware that it was a sin to obey God. Just because the Sabbath points to the rest we will have at the End of the Age, doesn't mean the Sabbath is over and done with in this Age, especially when I have the Spirit. If you think it's a sin to keep the Sabbath, then you have seriously twisted the Word of God around to no effect. What is to prevent you from nullifying the rest of the Word of God?

Think about the consequences of what you believe concerning this matter:

If God gave the Sabbath for only a certain amount of time on earth (even though he says it's a commandment for all generations), and he comes one day and nullifies it and even makes it a sin to do it (risking your eternal life); then pray tell, what is to prevent one from concluding that your dearly-held "eternal Sabbath that you have now" won't be nullified at some later point in the future too, and declared just as wrong?!

By throwing out the Sabbath which is a type and shadow of the rest we have in Christ, then according to type-reality application you then also must throw out the "eternal rest" you think we now have and will have at the End of the Age! Talk about pulling the rug out from underneath your hope. When you advocate that the types in this Age have an end in this Age, then you advocate that the realities of the next Eternal Age will have an end at some point in the Eternal Age. Elsewise your hermeneutic is inconsistent. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't reject the commandment to keep the Sabbath, and enjoy your Sabbath rest too!

Quote:

---

What does Paul teach concerning the Sabbath? He maintains that the Sabbath is a thing that has passed away: “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross . . .

---

Paul is not at all saying here that the Sabbath has passed away! You are adding words to the scripture that aren't even there. Ask yourself the simple question: what was blotted out? What does the text tell you? The bond or the ordinances or both? Hint: "having blotted out the bond written in ordinances" Isn't this what I've been saying? What was nailed to the cross was the curse of the law, the bond (debt), not the law itself (or else our redemption has no current value, and most importantly: Christ's death would not have worked to pay the debt since the debt of sin would still remain in Death's charge account, but the law that allows for substitutionary payment would be gone with which to legally pay it on behalf of others).

Quote:

---

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s” (Col. 2.14,16-17).

---

Thank God for Paul's encouraging words. I will not let you judge me in meat, or drink, or respect of a feast day, or new moon, or sabbath day, which are most certainly a shadow of "things TO COME" and not yet realized.

The Bible uses the phrase, even a law you make unto yourself: the point being, no man can even keep a law he creates for himself. Not only is his law wrong, but he can't even keep it. He is conflicted and in need of salvation.

What does Paul teach concerning the Sabbath? He maintains that the Sabbath is a thing that has passed away: “having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross . . . Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s” (Col. 2.14,16-17).

If you can't be judged for not keeping the Sabbath, the burden of the proof remains on you to show otherwise. The things to come have already arrived. Jesus already died on the cross and gave His Spirit to indwell, that rest which the Sabbath points to and fills up, so no longer keep the Sabbath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchwork

The Bible uses the phrase, even a law you make unto yourself.

---

That does not mean that if one doesn't have a law, they aren't counted as a sinner!

Quote:

---

If you can't be judged for not keeping the Sabbath, the burden of the proof remains on you to show otherwise.

---

I can't prove a negative. That is logically impossible. What I can prove is that it is written to keep God's commandments, including the Sabbath, and there is no law for one who does, for they would also be loving God - as it is written "against such thing there is no law."

Quote:

---

The things to come have already arrived. Jesus already died on the cross and gave His Spirit to indwell, that rest which the Sabbath points to.

---

So when Paul wrote "these are a shadow of things TO COME" did he write this phrase before or after Christ died and gave his spirit to indwell?

Since you can't find in the New Testament the law of the Sabbath must be kept, then the burden is on you. Since you refuse to prove it, you are wasting our time and get an infraction for Board Etiquette #6.

Paul was referring to that which has long since been established under covenant with Israel which has now passed because the Holy Spirit like Jesus come to fill up the Sabbath's rest. However painful this is for you to accept Rom. 14.5 and Col. 2.16,17, you must accept God's Word.

You are not born-again because you can't have two laws: a law of the Sabbath and the law of the indwelling Holy Spirit simultaneously, for the latter fills up the former. Since you keep the former, you deny the latter and never been quickened in your spirit by the Holy Ghost. How sad.