The Second Fulfilment of the 2300 Days (Dan. 8.14,17,26)

Re: Stormcrow @ christianforums.net

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow

See? It's stuff like this that causes me not to take this stuff seriously right out of the gate!
{13} Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, "How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?" {14} He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored." Daniel 8:13-14 (NASB)

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But you are not telling me anything I don't already know.

A second fulfilment of the 2300 days is ahead of us. Why? Gabriel explains the vision. Gabriel says to Daniel, "Son of Man you must understand these events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end" (Dan. 8.17).

Did the end occur during the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes? No, of course not.

In the vision Daniel had for Antiochus, one of the holy angels replied, "It will take twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be restored" (v.14). Just as Antiochus "cancelled the daily sacrifices" (v.12) so will the Antichrist except the Antichrist won't destroy the Temple as Antiochus did. 2 Thess. 2.4 says the Temple remains.

Gabriel said, "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up" (v.23). This is the Antichrist. "He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause a shocking amount of destruction and succeed in everything he does" (v.24) just like Alexander the Great and Antiochus IV Epiphanes. This "king will do as he pleases, exalting himself and claiming to be greater than every god, even blaspheming the God of gods. He will succeed, but only until the time of wrath is completed. For what has been determined will surely take place." (11.36).

Lastly, Gabriel said, "This vision about the twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings is true. But none of these things will happen for a long time, so don't tell anyone about them yet" (v.26)--the second fulfilment.

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Gabriel said (and Daniel wrote) "the time of the end", NOT "the end of time." And this phrase is put in its proper context immediately afterward:

{18} Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. {19} He said, "Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end. {20} "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. Daniel 8:18-20 (NASB)

Now, here's how the Septuagint translates this same passage:

And he came and stood near where I stood: and when he came, I was struck with
awe, and fell upon my face: but he said to me, Understand, son of man:
for yet the vision is for an appointed time. And while he
spoke with me, I fell upon my face to the earth: and he touched me, and set me
on my feet. And he said, Behold, I make thee know the things that shall
come to pass at the end of the wrath: for the vision is yet for an
appointed time. Daniel 8:17-20 LXX

Not one translator of today's Bibles is free of the curse of Darbyism, which sees virtually EVERY prophecy in terms of "the end" happening sometime in our
future!

The seventy Jewish translators who translated the Hebrew OT into Greek
suffered no such illusions. Want to understand this stuff? Pick up a copy of
the Septuagint.

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Yes we know this refers to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. That's not in question. Rather, as revelation is progressive we see second fulfilment. Evil men have a habit of repeating themselves.

"He will even take on the Prince of princes [Jesus] in battle, but he will be broken, though not be human power" (Dan. 8.23-25).

I have no problem with the Septuagint authors, but one thing of concern is you can make it say what you want because it is in Greek rather than relying on what Biblical scholars have written in the various popular Bibles today that depended on it already.

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As to the phrase "end of the indignation" or "end of the wrath?" You can find it here:

{70} Whereof when Jonathan had knowledge, he sent ambassadors unto him [Bacchides], to the end he should make peace with him, and deliver them the prisoners. {71} Which thing he accepted, and did according to his demands, and sware unto him that he would never do him harm all the days of his life.

{72} When therefore he had restored unto him the prisoners that he had taken aforetime out of the land of Judea, he returned and went his way into his own land, neither came he any more into their borders. {73} Thus the sword ceased from Israel: but Jonathan dwelt at Machmas, and began to govern the people; and he destroyed the ungodly men out of Israel. 1 Maccabees 9:70-73 (KJVApocrypha)

The Jewish war with the Seleucids ended in 157 BC. Israel enjoyed relative peace and safety for almost 100 years, until 63 BC, when the city was taken by Pompey.

There is no "second fulfillment" of this passage. The "end of the indignation" came in 157 BC.

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There may be no explicit 2nd fulfilment, but it shows lots of similar characteristics to the future Antichrist, and we should not disregard the 2300 days after which the Temple is cleansed because the 3rd Temple is effectively dirty the moment it is completed because Jesus never asked Israel to reinstate animal sacrifices. It is even possible the Antichrist some consider to be King William the V (I AM VI VI VI) in 2015 will fund the construction of the Temple. That alone makes it unclean.

The major difference to me is the 3rd Temple will not be damaged, but the Temple in Dan. 8 was.

You don't see how these verses expand to the Antichrist and Tribulation because God has not granted you that revelation, but Christians acknowledge it as the passage breathes and cries out for it even though it speaks of specific events that already happened.

It helps to sit back and think things through logically. There is the Temple built in 2 Thess. 2.4. The Antichrist is in it, giving his directives. It's completed in the Tribulation. When? With 2300 days remaining to the end of the Tribulation and end of wrath. Is that really so hard to understand and notice at least the similarities?

Primillennialists (Chiliasts) recognize this connection. That's all we are saying.

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow

{27} Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)

Funny. I don't see the words "great tribulation" in this verse at all.

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My apologies, I didn't realize you were legalist. Funny. Let's pray you get deliverance from your petty self.

"Abominations...make desolate" (Dan. 9.27). I am sorry to hear you reject the Trinity also. This agrees with Matt. 24.15, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand". "Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains...And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved" (vv.16,22). No flesh would be saved! That's not good enough of a Tribulation for you to be the Tribulation of 7 years? "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (v.39). This 7 years is the Tribulation which is exactly 7 years x 360 days per year just like Daniel's other sixty-nine sevens.

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light" (Mark 13.24). "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." (Matt. 24.29). "Be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" (Luke 21.36). "The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

The last half of the Tribulation is called the Great Tribulation lasting 42 months. "But do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months" (Rev. 11.2, 13.5). in the Great Tribulation armies amass amounting to 200 million (9.16) an one third of the people of the earth die in fire and brimstone (v.18). You realize how daft you come across? The forty two months of the Great Tribulation are comprised of the last three trumpets (3 woes). The fifth trumpet is 5 months, the 6th trumpet is 13 months plus one day and one hour. That leaves 24 months for the 7th trumpet. Thanks for playing. You lose.

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And as to the assertion that this verse agrees with Matt. 24:15, you need to look at Luke 21:20 first:

{20} “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that its desolation has come near. {21} Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains! Those inside the city must leave it, and those who are in the country must not enter it, {22} because these are days of vengeance to fulfill all the things that are written. {23} Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for there will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. {24} They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Luke 21:20-24 (HCSB)

Coming from someone in the "date-setting" camp, that simply drips with irony.

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I am glad you couldn't defend your position. I don't date set but just let the Holy Spirit lead me where He may. Perhaps you will understand better if I explain to you the process.

Once upon a time I saw a video of Mark Biltz explaining stuff about the Tetrads. At fist I didn't think much of it but about a year later, I decided to review it in earnest, and I don't know what caused me to see the light this time, but it was undeniable. Hence, step by step I discovered these various data points that show unequivocally when the Tribulation is going to take place, so the only thing that has prevented you from appreciating the truth is your consecration, assuming you are actually saved. Such consecration will bring you into the truth to accept partial rapture, for without partial rapture in your heart you can't appreciate what I am saying. Pray on this. My advice to you is put aside the dates for the moment and focus on getting partial rapture right first in your heart.

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow

{25} Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Messiah is the subject of this passage.

{26} And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people [ROMANS] of the prince [TITUS] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

See the phrase that begins with "and the people?" It's paranthetical to the subject, which is Messiah! Read it that way!

{27} And he [MESSIAH]
shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and
for [BECAUSE OF] the overspreading of abominations he shall make it
desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon
the desolate. Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV)

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Where did Jesus make any covenant for 7 years? Jesus was cut off after the 69th unit of seven years. For Jesus to make a covenant for 7 years and in the middle be cut off on the cross would mean that the first half of the 70th seven overlaps the 2nd half of the 69th seven. That makes no sense at all and is totally inconsistent with the consecutive usage of the other 69 sevens. Therefore, you must revert to "he" being the Antichrist because he can be neither Jesus nor Titus.

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Now, what is the covenant Messiah makes???

God tells Isaiah:

{6} "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, {7} To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. {8} "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. {9} "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." Isaiah 42:6-9 (NASB)

And how was this fulfilled???

{27} And when He had taken a cup and given
thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; {28} for this is My blood of the covenant,
which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Matthew 26:27-28 (NASB)

Christ, whose blood was shed to confirm the covenant and whose death put an
end to sacrifice, is the one who opened the seals of judgment upon Jerusalem and
Judea for their abominations!

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Dan. 9.26 is the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD which is 37 years after the cross. But then you take verse 27 and go backwards 37 years to the cross. That makes no sense. Dan. 9.27 follows Dan. 9.26 so what occurs in Dan. 9.27 is after 70 AD and thus pertains to the Antichrist. His people destroyed the Temple in 70 AD. Seals 2 to 4 in Revelation have no association with Israel. They are general in nature, thus depicting the past 20 centuries.

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{8} When He [Christ] had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. {9} And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Revelation 5:8-9 (NASB)

Who do you think judged Jerusalem for its abominations??? The Bible I read said Christ did, and used the Romans to execute judgment, just as He had used the Assyrians and Babylonians before!!!

Christ is the only one worthy to judge ANYONE for their sins. This whole passage is about Christ, not some futuristic "boogeyman."

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Jesus will use evil to judge. Absolutely! But they are not "his people". They would be the people in spirit of this real person who you call a boogeyman, none other than Neron Kaisar resurrected whose name comes to 666 (Rev. 13.18) in Aramaic--one of the five fallen Caesars ("five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come" Rev. 17.10). John wrote this around 95 AD.

Dan. 9.24 is certainly not fulfilled in any regard: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Who can say Israel ("thy holy people") do not sin anymore? When did the Temple get anointed because of Jesus' death in 33 AD? How is it everlasting righteousness when there is the destruction of the Temple 37 years later? Who can say the millennial kingdom has started for Jesus has not returned yet, and everlasting righteousness certainly does not describe the world today. I see transgressions all around. Reconciliation for iniquity has certainly not played out yet. The cross is only a start. The time of recompense, the millennium, has not yet begun. The nations are still deceived (Rev. 20.3). No holy Temple, no way to annoint it. Hence, vision and prophecy are still sealed as in the Seals of the past 20 centuries. The 6th Seal has begun to be broken open with the Japan 2011 earthquake (Rev. 6.12).

When you claim these things are fulfilled and you see the world today, your conscience shows itself to be seared, for though Jesus' blood atones for sins for forgiveness these all arching themes remain unfulfilled, and only those in Christ can find power over sin and self having died on the cross with Christ.

I don't know how you are going to be able to get around this. Daniel, therefore, must have in view a future Antichrist when speaking of the people of the prince who will break a 7 year political deal, and his end "shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined" through these past 20 centuries and the final 7 year Tribulation.

Since John wrote the book of Revelation 95 AD, or thereabouts, he is not going over 70 AD but the end of this age.