The Local Church of Living Stream Ministry
There are 6 major sins in the unholy trinity of the Living Stream Ministry, Witness Lee and The Local Church. Don't get caught up in analyzing this cult. Just be satisfied they are a cult in there 6 major sins. You don't need to go to their outlet gatherings to know these sins of theirs. I have never gone to even one of their outlets.
In addition, I have observed these other oddities at other forums. They try to desperately marry Witness Lee to Watchman Nee in conniving ways. Observe what is happening today on the Internet.
Observation 1: At a non-Christian forum, they have a section that was originally called "Watchman Nee / Little Flock / Biblical Locality". This is a true statement, since Watchman Nee was of the "little flocK" (Luke 12.32), and he agreed with Biblical locality (Acts 14.23) in the Scriptures. But, they changed the heading of their forum to "Witness Lee / Watchman Nee / Little Flock / Biblical Locality". Why did they do this? For two reasons.
- They did it after they banned me even though I know Witness Lee was unsaved and spent much time there showing it and how he was diabolically opposite to Watchman Nee (see the 6 major sins of leeism).
- The other reasons is because there are two leeists who have been stalking me for years now that hang out there on that non-Christian forum, and they have convinced the non-Christian owners to make this change. The reason a leeist would do something like this is to create confusion, since who is the author of confusion? And it is to give the false impression that I agree with them. I don't. On that non-Christian forum, a leeist posts, "I would like to know what are the grounds why Watchman Nee's Local Church was considered cult"? Watchman Nee was never part of The Local Church. Remember, The Local Church came after Nee was imprisoned for life when Witness Lee started his cult. Watchman Nee believed in Biblical locality, not a central-hub organization called The Local Church with Living Stream Ministry. They make other kinds of allegations and accusations that are false, to deflect from the 6 major sins of leeism. I just stay away from there. Be not surprised leeists like non-Christian and calvinist forums (see below).
It is that old sin bearing false witness they get lost in. Neither myself, according to my writings, nor Watchman Nee, according to his writings, believed in these 6 major sins of leeism. Nor would most Christians.
The word "mingling" is such a vague word, don't get caught up in that word; it is a trap for dissension. If you want to talk about a specific quote of Witness Lee when he uses this term, that is a better approach, to expose him.
The issue is the 6 major sins of leeism, none other. Satan will try to get you caught up in vagaries and misdirection. In Christ, be specific, as I have done with the 6 major sins that isolate the sickness in leeism.
Observation 2: There is another forum of moderators which are the "tares" in the kingdom of heaven who try to look like the saved wheat. God warns us about these types of folks in Matthew 13. They are calvinistic and into pretrib onlyism, plus they have some other false teachings such as tritheism they inadvertently teach.
They have a forum which they call "Nee, Lee & the Church of Recovery - Discussions about the problems in the works of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and the Local Churches or the movement spawned by the teachings of these men". As you can see, they try to marry Nee to Lee without cause or reason for doing so. Remember, Nee was OSAS arminian, while Lee and and their forum are both calvinists. This forum spoken of has many ex-leeists, such as UntoHimself. Discern what has been said here.
(I have never been to even one single leeist meeting. It is not necessary to do so to know their false teachings!)
Observation 3: There is no need to get into the obvious fact that the leeist system tries to marry itself to Nee in their many websites.
Observation 4: I like to go to factnet.org and other leeist hang-out places once in a blue boom such as bereans.net incognito to gather other strange sayings of leeists that keep cropping up, since both these places have banned me. I am banned at factnet.org because their owners are non-Christian and bereans.net because they are hard-headed calvinists, like leeists, with the pride of thinking they were saved first like robots before they could have the choice to come to the cross. Take for example, loverofanotherchrist at factnet.org said:
- On Tuesday, August 28, 2007 at factnet.org, in the thread, "Watchman Nee Disagreed With Witness Lee About Women Apostles", loverofanotherchrist (a long-time brainwashed leeist) said, "Watchman Nee did not write here that there were women apostles"; then, he turned around and said, "apparently Nee did believe that there were women apostles". He changed his mind in a heartbeat because he was shown Nee did believe women can be apostles, e.g. Junia or Julia. Furthermore, loverofanotherchrist thinks apostles appoint apostles when he said, "Paul would never have appointed a female apostle". Apostles don't appoint apostles, for apostles are directly chosen or commissioned by God. Nowhere in the Bible do you find Paul appointing any apostles, male or female. The role of an apostle is to appoint Elders of a locality.
- Who can deny we all have knowledge today? Or that God never intended us to have knowledge according to God's timing to deliver it unto us? In the same thread, loverofanotherchrist claims, "There is no single verse in Genesis or anywhere else in the bible which indicates that God at any time intended for man to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." The truth of this mistaken assumption is that that though man went ahead of God independently by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge and good and evil against His will, it would seem clear since we all have this knowledge today, that God would not have kept us from having knowledge for eternity. That would make humans rather dull, not unlike a leeist.
Leeists Accuse Me of Things That I Never Said
As you may know the leeists fall back on a preterist, Hank Hank Hanegraff, because to gain popularity, he agrees with everyone, even leeists. He is a doubletalker. So leeists quote him saying good things about them. I don't know any preterists that are born-again, for preterism teaches Christ already returned.
It is true, that osas arminians are more likely to be saved since this agrees with the Word, and calvinism does not. Calvinism teaches a false teaching called total depravity which says the person must be premade for salvation like a robot to come out of total depravity. Do you think this glorifies God? Of course not.
I am accused of believing Luther was not saved by a couple of hardened leeist stalkers, but I think Luther was saved. He believed in resistible grace and unlimited atonement and preservation of the saints and justification by faith.
However, John Calvin was not born again, that is a certainty. To understand this, understand his way of salvation: he thought he was saved by being premade that way. Luther was coming out the dark ages.
But Calvin has no excuse for being the kingpin behind the worse teaching in the history of Christendom. It is said Augustine held this same false teaching of calvinism. All I can say about Augustine is his time was dark too and would deserve some slack in receiving authentic salvation.
All I can say for certainty is John Calvin was unsaved, the person leeists defend. I am not saying all things Calvin taught were false, but his way of salvation for new birth shows us he was never born-again. Leeists always defend the pride of believing they were premade for salvation like robots.
Many wonder why Calvin and McCarthur and others in Christendom were such hard people and did not have a soft spirit like Christ. It is because they were unsaved and the pride was too much to overcome.
Leeists accuse me of believing the new city is not going to be on Earth or elsewhere but future Mars. How can the new city be on Earth since Earth will be burnt up? Would a leeist have us Christians live in a desolate place? Nor should you spiritualize the new earth. Watchman Nee also believed the new city would be a physical city on a physical planet. See his 17 point proof. I agree.
The reason we have the precious blood is because we will even be accused of the Truth.
Ad Hominems
of termin8d
Though I can not respond at factnet.org because they banned me again, I will respond here.
termin8d or otherwise known as terminill reviler (for desiring to terminate his soul as a leeist and be a zombie for leeism) tells us he is not a stalker, when he said, "I am not a stalker, nor is loverof[another]christ", yet we find various acts of stalking here and here and here. Just search for the term "stalk" to see the various instances of stalking.
termin8or his soul, blames, "The fact is that you keep coming back to this forum after being banned multiple times." Indeed, that is how Christians must operate, for we are banned constantly from non-Christian sites. Just like the Chinese churches were operating underground in China. Subsequently, though, still many were banned and thrown into jail like Paul and Nee were by our accusers.
Soulically termin8ed said, "The fact is that you taught your followers on your website to come back to forums like this after being banned under different names and masked ip addresses." They do it of their own free-will. Many Christians all over the world have no choice but to do this to help souls; we are the underground churches. Why is it any different for the Internet?
the termin8ed soul said, "The fact is that not only have you been banned from this forum before, but many other forums, including a Command and Conquer III forum, which really makes me wonder, do apostles have enough time on their hands to be playing computer games? Do you think Watchman Nee would consider you an apostle?" I have stopped playing C&C3 for weeks now. Being banned for responding to questions about Christ on the C&C3 forum is not something that should be blamed, so why accuse like Satan? Since there are no requirement in the Bible for apostles not allowed to have a little entertainment once and awhile and try out new things, I don't think Watchman Nee would accuse apostles for doing so, so I am pretty sure Nee would not agree with you, nor God's Word. What we can say is Satan is the great accuser, but I am glad to see you are always reading things about me which reveals your obsession with me to show that indeed you are stalking me even though you say you are not. Sounds like stalking to me.
the termin8dor writes, "The fact is that you have never been to a single meeting with the local churches." That is a blessing, not a curse.
termini8ed writes, "The fact is that the very book (CFP, white cover) that you use to prove that the New Jerusalem is a physical city, actually say that Nee's position changed from physical to spiritual." The footnotes are not Nee's writing you admitted, and since we can find nowhere in Nee's writings that the literal is not spiritual or that he changed his mind about the physical new city, then to assume otherwise would be wrong. We can only conclude the translator added his own bias since no evidence supports his claim. Perhaps they was trying to make Nee more readable to the public by claiming some unknown spiritualized new view. Who knows. In any case, what we can say is the current Manager of CFP disagrees with Nee on several teachings: e.g. Biblocality and women apostles, and that would explain the CFP bias, even though their translations themselves are top notch usually. However, where the Manager of CFP changed the word "uncreated" for God's life to "untreated", I took exception and contacted them to change it back in the PDF in their next update. They promised they will do so.
termin8d continues, "The fact is that you consider yourself an apostle, and grant users of your forum the title of apostle. Even you did this to a 15 year old girl, whom you since have banned. Yes Troy I have talked to her personally about this." Those people who say they are apostles and you nor I can find anything to suggest otherwise that they are not, then why accuse them if they answer all 37 questions showing their authority (assuming they were being forthright). I prefer not to be a great accuser as in leeism. You're bearing false witness about this girl you mentioned (I am not sure if you are her or not) is wrong. This girl joined the forums because she agreed with something about these forums. She said she agreed with all these questions and believed she was an Elder of a meeting place (she never said she was an Apostle, nor did I say she was an Apostle), so who am I to disagree that she is an Elder of a meeting place? Why can't a 15 year old girl be an Elder of meeting place? Later I found out she did not in fact agree with these things she said she had agreed with, so she was being dishonest with me at the start or careless in her answering those questions. Either way, I for one cannot accept someone is an Elder of a meeting place if they have such false teachings. I don't see that as God's will. Incidentally, she is not banned, but she requested to be removed, because we could not reconcile her view on those particular false teachings.
termin8d said, "The fact is that while calling yourself an apostle, there are NO churches that you have raised up." I have raised up the church of my locality, and I do not say I am an official apostle, but more like an intern apostle, like Paul was as he was training to be one before he ventured out and set up all those churches. Because I feel that there needs be at least 12 apostles in agreement first, before we can move out, an independent move is not deemed acceptable. Think about it. After all, were there not the first 12 apostles first? Did Jesus just select Peter and that was it? No, of course not. In the same way, we apostles wait for God to commission 12 apostles in agreement. We are patiently waiting for Him to do so. Praise the Lord!
termin8d said, "The fact is that you keep spamming the forum with the same refuted worn out accusations that you did years ago, proving that you've got nothing new to say." There is nothing new to say. It is the same old problem and false teaching of the 6 major sins of leeism that has been going on for close to half a century. You won't repent, though some leeists will; but, the organization of leeism will be destroyed when Jesus returns. You can either go down with them like a sinking ship or enter the ark. Still it remains true: it is a sin to 1) call yourself God, 2) violently scream repetitive mantra, 3) sue for faith, 4) alter Nee's writings so desire becomes hate, 5) be a modalist claiming the Father is the Son, and 6) be a calvinist claiming you have to be saved first before you can believe. I don't accuse you but simply tell you these are false teachings. I can understand how you feel accused though since you don't want to repent.
termin8d said, "The fact is that when you got really desperate, you came on here with multiple identities to make it look like you had people supporting you." If and when I do use a different nickname to come on every once and awhile, it is not because I am desperate, for what am I desperate of? I come on to help you guys, because still you don't repent of these sins. Those other people that do join to help you as well, they are not me, so don't think everybody is me that joins to help you. You are giving away your obsession with me again.
termin8d said, "Do your best to refute these statements." Done. In conclusion we can see what the leeist tries to do. He desperately tries to deflect his sins of leeism by making many false accusations against those who can easily expose his false teaching. The leeist will tell you that it is not about right and wrong, but doing the work. I tell you that it is not about false works by still speaking falsely without the Holy Spirit. How is your work any good if always along with it are attached your extreme false teachings? If you are still a leeist, be embarrassed for your cult, because of these leeists who represent you. To remain in this condition is not love, but the selfish party spirit of leeism. How can you grow in such an environment, for it is still people in a cult trying to power themselves forward by their own strength. Reject this facsimile that bears false witness against God's design to deceive people into a false salvation.
Is it true everyone is unsaved who has even only one small false teaching? Of course not. We are still overcoming in our faith so we still have things to overcome. Can someone still be saved even though they confuse the spirit with the soul, lacking the deeper Christian life? Of course. That is not what the issue is before us. The issue before us are the 6 major sins of leeism that have never been part of Christianity for the last 2000 years; therefore, leeists are just as unsaved as are mormons and jw's. As you continue to comtemplate these things in this time of need, may God's grace come upon you to help convince you to change your mind.
Leeists Confuse Usernames
loverofanotherchrist wrote: "I was mistaken with regard to your...accusing the board's admin. I did confuse you with the_rede. You have my apology for that." The reason why loverofanotherchrist accuses board members at factnet.org of accusing the board's admin is because he is trying to get them banned so they don't speak up against his cult.
lema_nal replies, "I accept your apology."
loverofanotherchrist also said, "The_rede is Troy. That's already been confirmed."
lema_nal replies, "No, the_rede is not Troy either. This is for sure. I had correspondence with both of them."
This reminds me of when Paul said in 1 Cor. 15 that you can check with those people to confirm what they said.
I think the leeists are paranoid, because many people are speaking against Witness Lee's cult, so they assume these are the same people to rationalize it to themselves. The flesh can rationalize anything. I think the accusations about others having multiple accounts is because loverofanotherchrist lies about himself when he said, "Never did I claim that I was a lawyer." lema_nal responded (because loverofanothchrist said he worked at Givens Pursley, his IP address was from Givens Pursley, gave the phone number to Givens Pursley for Troy to call him, said his name was Brad, and there was only one Brad working at Givens Pursley who was a lawyer),
There are three reasons why I think you are a lawyer:
1. You worked at Givens Pursley.
2. Sometimes, it is easy to find out a person's profession by his style of speaking and writing.
a) I noticed that you like very much to [try to] point out logical fallacies. You accused me many times of making them, though this was not true. Lawyers surely need to know logics very well. They take a course of logics at the university.
b) Their job is to defend their clients by using any possible means. Sometimes, they even might deceive the jury and the judge. I means that there are some cases when they know that they client committed a crime, but their job is to defend him. Now, I can say that your "client" is the Local Church. So, your "job" is to defend it. By the way, one my acquaintant lawyer behaves exactly as you do. He denies everything that others tell him.
3. This makes sense to me, why "leading brothers" asked you to do this "work". You do not know Witness Lee's teaching enough for this "work". So, the reason is that you are professional in defending anybody. Please do not write that "the leading brothers" did not ask you, and that this was your own initiative. I know how these things are being done in the Local Church. If I had found anything "negative" in Internet (when I was in the Local Church), I would immediately report it to "the leading brothers" and ask them what to do. By the way, during 2 years that you and termin8d post here, no other LC member joins this forum.
It should be noted loverofanotherchrist tries to slide through this by saying over a year later after the fact that his middle name was Brad, not his first name, even though he never said his middle name was Brad before, nor would it be reasonable because he said to call him at Givens Pursley by the name of Brad and not by a name people would not recognize. Since Brad V. Sneed's middle name is not Brad, he must be loverofanotherchrist, unless as some such as everstill have put forward the possibility of "identity theft".
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
Standard Introductory Letter to The Local Church members of Living Stream Ministry
This letter can also be of much help to ex-Leeists and anti-Nee fanatics such as Nee's two Bipartite Amillennial Calvinist nemesis's Dana Roberts and G. Richard Fisher. (Please email me and let me know if and when these two characters have repented of these three false teachings and I will adjust this claim about them.)
Just walk away from the Lee camp of Witness Lee, for they believe in modalism, deification (calling themselves God), suing for faith, repetitive shouting mantra, Calvinism (idol of Total depravity), and bearing false witness - a willingness to alter Nee's writings that do not agree with the writings of Nee at CFP and CLC. Since Watchman Nee never believed in any of these false teachings (I cannot find in any of his writings teaching any of these things) and he did not subscribe to a central hub of an oracle, then tell me what do Nee and Lee have in common? The Apostles are limited in that they work regionally, and there is no central board. Elders of a locality are appointed by regional Apostles. And Elders of a locality approve the Elders of meeting places within a locality. This is the proper organizing the Church that LSM is without. Nee was OSAS Arminian.
It's amazing as you peruse the Internet how so many try to marry Nee to Lee. But if Nee had been released from jail and found out about Lee's doings, he would have rebuked Lee in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Satan is always on the heels for filthy lucre after whatever spiritual gain is made. In Nee's day, Nee said there were 200 Apostles in China at the peak, but that slowly waned in latter days even he admitted shortly before being sent to jail for life. Those who try to marry Nee TO Lee are of two sorts: 1) those who reject the spiritual (particularly the 5 Deeper Truths), so they cop out by falsely marrying Nee to Lee as an excuse to succumb to the world; and of course, 2) Leeists. Ex-Leeists can also fall into two camps: a) those who still ascribe to some of the Six Major Sins of Leeism, thus bearing false witness as they try to marry Nee to Lee (e.g. The Local Church Discussion Forums - mostly ex-Leeists); and b) those who reject anything to do with Nee at all since, if only in name, Leeists claim they agree with Nee (though of course, they do not), e.g. The Berean Public Square forums. It is a Calvinist run organization at BARM - The Bereans Apologetics Research Ministry. They are not fond of hearing they hold more in common with Lee than Nee because they agree with Lee about Calvinism and do not take exception when bearing false witness against Watchman Nee.
It's an efficient way to deal with cults. Just find out their six major sins and walk away. Say thanks, but no thanks. Life is too precious to remain in a cult! I've never stepped foot in their cult meetings even once, but I have seen the videos and heard the audios of what they do in their sessions.
Modalism is a way unfaithful man brings God down to his level of perceptions for his own way, because he can't fathom how God could be three Persons (co-equal and co-inherent), so he alters God's very nature in the complex diversity of His unity. Even though it is hard to understand the Trinity in your mind, God never asked you to understand in your mind, but let revelation reveal it in your spirit, for you do know some things. Jesus proved Himself by His resurrection-no naturalistic theory fits the data-so we know Jesus is true. We pray to the Father, through the Son by the Spirit. And Jesus never called Himself the Father or the Spirit, but that He indwells the believer by the Spirit while He is at the right hand of the Father. It was agreed among the three Persons of the Godhead that the Son would pay for the sins of mankind. Be leery of those who do violence to the Scriptures who are Modalists. They might even say God is three Persons, but then turn right around and say God is a Person also!? That is a contradiction. God is not one Person! He is 3 Persons! We as humans are each one person, but God is 3 Persons. The law of non-contradiction says you can't be both a Person and three Persons at the same time. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily; that is to say, all that God could be in the likeness of flesh. In no way does this suggest the Godhead is a Person or that Jesus is actually the Father or the Spirit. God is 3 Persons. Accept it.
Deification is pride, lacking humility, to make such a claim a person is God in life in nature. Only God is God in life and nature. We may have God's life, but we are not God. Almost all cults of Christianity try to use this Deification ideology, e.g. Mormons.
We are creatures of habit so we are all susceptible to repetitive shouting mantra. You can't help but be infected and dumbed down subliminally by their carefully placed mantra as they try to weed their controlling mechanisms into your spirit and soul and body. It might make you feel good so at least you show up next week to shout some more mantra again. Next thing you know, you've been doing it for six months and you're stuck. You can't get out even if you wanted to!
God made you in His image. You do not cease to be in His image after the fall of man. God's image is permanent. Even an unsaved person who goes to Hell still remains made in God's image, but is eternally separated from God's love. Man is depraved or partially depraved. He is not Totally depraved, because if he were then nobody could receive what Jesus did for us on the cross. His work on the cross would have been in vain pleading with us. But God does provide sufficient grace for us to give us all the opportunity to be saved by grace through faith: to freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith to be regenerated. You do not have to assume you were regenerated as Calvinists do, because of being allegedly Totally depraved, in order to be able to repent and believe. Does that seem genuine to you? Their's is a selfish salvation without the prior repentance and faith. Can you sense in your spirit how that is self-exaltation to say you were selected irresistibly, there was nothing you could do about it, and everyone else was passed over, given no grace whatsoever all the days of their life? The latter received nothing but false hope from a gospel they could not understand or accept anyway? What love is this? How is that a true relationship if there was nothing you could do about it anyway? Think how evil this mindset is for man; it is no less evil for God to send people to Hell from birth without any opportunity for salvation; or to impose salvation on someone. Why should God's standards be less than ours? Total depravity is an idol that needs be erected by cultists to claim they can't repent and believe in Christ so they don't. Thus, they can have their cake and eat it to. This is called "stacking the deck" as they pompously puff themselves up in thinking they have been irresistibly selected above all others without any regard for the person. Since it was not their choice, how can they really know if they are saved or not? Calvinism is an effective teaching for cults. TULIP (5 teachings of Calvinism) is used to deaden one's conscience which is important, because if a person were to develop a conscience, they would leave The Local Church. Once you go down that rabbit hole of believing in Total depravity, you cling to more thoughts of being irresistibly made to do this or that and thus, controlled by the physical birth children of Witness Lee who run the organization.
After suing about a dozen Christian organizations over the years which called The Local Church Living Stream Ministry a cult, the verdict came in, losing $136,000,000 in a lawsuit in which they did not get a dime. The Living Stream Ministry tried to manipulate through various cunning tactics the court of law, but the law of the land came back and defended the right of Christians to call The Local Church a cult. Suing for faith is very Scientology. Would Paul do this? This lawsuit took place when their revenues had totally collapsed. They were trying to revive their cult. It's really just about the money. It's like there is a big billboard over their cult that says - WE ARE A CULT!
It's amazing how when you show the differences in the writings between CFP (& CLC) and LSM, you would think they are two different writers. One particular instance that stands out is Chapter 2, Volume 1 in which there are 3 major aspects to man's emotion: affection, desire, sensing & feeling (CFP). Note there are three later chapters with these titles, but no titles for the words in the Leeist version which are love, hate and being affected (LSM). So they replace affection (with all its gambit of emotions) with just love. They replace desire with hate (how can desire always be hate?), and sensing & feeling with being affected? Cults don't like you to have "desire" to think for yourself. They need to restrict and constrict your emotions to control you. Instead of sensing and feeling, they need to prevent you from being affected by others and just remain in the love of their cult. Plus whole paragraphs and concepts are brought in that do not exist in the CFP original. The Leeist versions of Nee's books can be as much as 30% longer. That should raise alarm bells instantly! The manager of CFP told me he has no idea where LSM came up with their additions such as the one described here specifically. The CFP versions are the originals. The LSM scribes took way too many liberties. They might have done this on purpose to manipulate you.
And one final note. Locality is an independent unit. It is not under some self-proclaimed oracle of the day like Witness Lee and his Living Stream organization. There is no central-hub to sell its products from in such a generic fashion as this to all its outlets. God likes diversity. The Church is not The Local Church. The Church is the universal Church. Therefore, the churches of The Local Church are NOT the churches of the body of Christ. The Church is the organizing of believers properly by true Apostles and Elders according to Scriptural locality. Amen.
