OSAS Arminians Understand Why Calvinists are Going to Hell

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08-22-2011, 03:22 PM
Parture

OSAS Arminians Understand Why Calvinists are Going to Hell

Re: MrWinknod @ YouTube

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWinknod

If you deny the total depravity of man you reject Christianity and the bible. Even Arminians accept total depravity for the most part. You will spend eternity with Arminius in hell for refusing to see your own inability to save yourself, and instead accusing God of being a tyrant.

Since you can't find any verses in Scripture to support Total depravity, examine why you introduce this false teaching. The reason is because this idol helps you to rationalize the pompous idea you have erected for yourself that you were irresistibly selected as your god is unable to provide sufficient grace for all to have the free-choice. Your god can't do this. God trumps your god every time! And it gets you off to think people are sent to Hell for no other reason they were born into sin, again, showing your god unable to give them sufficient grace to have the choice.

Your god is so pathetic, weak and downright evil! My God responds righteously. Two children are playing but sinking in quicksand. Your god yanks one out by a hook like a robot and leaves the other to perish with no effort or consideration to save him at all. Whereas God of the Bible pleads with both, does not infringe on their free-will, supplies them both with sufficient grace, extends an arm lovingly out to both, and allows them to choose freely. If it is evil for us to behave otherwise, it is evil for your god to behave otherwise. How can God's standards be below our own?

I am glad you stated your position you don't think OSAS Arminians are Christians when you said, "If you deny the total depravity of man you reject Christianity and the Bible" so we know exactly what you think. I know you are not born-again because you are too selfish to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Christians did repent and believed in Him to be regenerated. How can you be "without excuse" (Rom. 1.20) if God doesn't provide sufficient grace to have the choice?

I don't know any Arminians who teach Total depravity. The opposite of Total depravity is the first of 5 points of OSAS Arminian Free Will/Ability. One who has the ability to come to Christ by the grace of God by definition is not Totally depraved. Arminians believe we can help an old lady across the street and receive what Jesus did for us on the cross. How evil that you think you cannot and thus, do not. This degrades your conscience.

God does the saving. I can't save myself, but I can and have fulfilled the condition God has given us-the ability-, requires of us and has set for us to be saved by Him.

Jesus said, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not. That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8.23,24). Only God can atone for sins. Only the God who provides sufficient grace to all to have the choice can truly atone for sins. Unless you believe in this God you will go to Hell! "Repent ye therefore, and be converted [regenerated], that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). Who is to do this? You. "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!" (Deut. 30.19) "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Tit. 2.11)--speaks of the sufficient grace given to all men to have the free-choice. His grace is sufficient for all men Who came upon all men to be saved whosoever is willing. Now "the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3.9). Since God is longsuffering, doing all He can to save each and every soul and not exceed His righteous will, we all given the sufficient grace God supplies to have the free-choice. Thus, God is right in pleading with all to come to repentance.

God doesn't call people to repent who can't repent. Because He provides them sufficient grace to respond positively, He can tell them to repent. How odd that would be if God were to call people to repent who could not as is the case in Calvinism.

I will be with Jacob Arminius, Paul, John, Peter, Jacob and Abraham. You will be in Hell with Calvin, Luther and Augustine for eternity since you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. God requires of you to come to Him genuinely without the presumptuousness you were irresistibly selected. How arrogant! How fake to prop yourself up on a pedestal declaring the preteritioned were irresistibly made for the gas chambers and have no chance, but that you were irresistibly selected and there was nothing you could do about. How ugly! and sick-minded.

Quote:

Anyone who goes to hell does so because they hate God.You quote a heretic (Dave Hunt) to back your argument. You are more hopelesly lost than I first thought. Nothing you have posted would win an argument. You take my references and claim they say the opposite of what they do. This is NOT providing references to back your argument. That is like saying grass is blue, or the sky is green. Those of us older mature Christians see easily through your lies, but you will answer to God for misleading those who are unaware. You will soon be fitted for a millstone.

I am glad at least you express your view most Calvinists secretly hold that think Jacob Arminius, Dave Hunt and other OSAS Arminians are going to Hell so there is no doubt about where you stand.

As we have gone through the verses you have shared I showed you each and every time how you insert into the text that which is not explicitly stated. Inserting your idea into the text is false and trying to make up for the fact that God has not saved you.

I don't have to supply you anything. All I need to do is show you the verse(s) you try to use to support Calvinism fail because they don't explicitly say what you want them to say.

The Holy Spirit told me you are not born-again and never were. Likely you never will be regenerated. I don't believe you will ever give your life to Christ. I don't say that of all Calvinists that they are never going to be saved, just the ones as far gone as you. Hardening your heart is the recourse God has now with you, and I pray then as a result of this you will then give your life to Christ.
08-27-2011, 10:31 PM
Parture

Calvinists are Often Amillennial

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWinknod

When Jesus died he destroyed the devil and brought the millennial kingdom into existence. Jesus many times stated that the kingdom was amongst man and within man. The kingdom has been expanding ever since and will reach its completion when Christ returns to judge. Those still alive at his second coming are those who will meet the Lord in the air. This is not like your rapture as you conjure it up. The wicked will perish at the second coming, at the last trumpet. Jesus is sitting on the throne now ruling from heaven. You deny the kingdom, and the King, and you are wasting your time in your fantasyland. In the book of Peter, he states how the heavens and the earth will be burnt up. This is not at your so called 3rd coming . That is that.

You really are deceived thinking the Devil no longer operates. Jesus said the god of this world is Satan, and Paul said, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not" (2 Cor. 4.4). He is called today the prince of the power of the air, the ruler of this world. Today people get caught in the snares of the devil. John spoke of today the power of the evil one. The god of this age has you in his grasp.

The kingdom is here, but it is not the millennial kingdom. The kingdom has 3 aspects: outward appearance of Christendom with all its troubles and triumphs, outward conduct in Matt. 5-7 of believers, and the reigning and reward in the millennial-kingdom to-come.

Today, the 1000 year kingdom has not started yet, since Rev. 20.3 says the nations won't be deceived in the 1000 years. They are deceived now obviously as we hear of wars and rumours of wars.

To meet the Lord in the air is rapture. That's what rapture means. Why reject meeting the Lord in the air and "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven. You don't say specifically why you are hostile to the rapture. You don't even know why you have this hostility because you are demonically possessed.

The wicked perish today and when Jesus returns and at the end of millennial kingdom when they are resurrected for Hell where you are going. Revelation 19 (end of this age) precedes Revelation 20 (millennial kingdom), and Revelation 21 (eternity future in the New City) follows Revelation 20.

Jesus is not reigning with a rod of iron today. People get away with stuff all the time today. Jesus reigns with a rod of iron when He returns. So you wait for a false Christ since you reject this Jesus. The Bible says Jesus returns to earth just as He left (Zech. 14.4, Acts. 1.11, Rev. 1.7), and His overcomers reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26) on earth. Many do not have faith to believe this.

After the 1000 years the earth are burnt up not the heavens. For Jesus to reign on earth with 10,000 overcomers (Jude 14,15) obviously is not to a burnt earth. After the 1000 years the earth is burnt up.

When Jesus returns to reign for the millennial kingdom this is His 2nd coming. He remains with us during the 1000 years so how is that a 3rd coming?

Satan the god of this world today accuses through you, accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10).

How strange to place the 3rd last chapter of the Bible as having already happened. Not much of a book of prophecy if that were the case. Rev. 12 to 19 give the details of the general points of end times in Rev. 7 to 11 just as Genesis 2 gives the details of Gen. 1.
09-02-2011, 01:59 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWinknod

You exalt your will over the sovereign will of God. You accuse me of will worship, where in fact it is you who promote that position. The bible clearly states(not that that matters to you) that man is incapable of coming to God without sovereign grace. You refuse to submit your prideful will to Almighty God. You accuse the Almighty God of being like Hitler, and basically not smart enough to devise His own plan of salvation. Smart thinking people see through your theology like a window. God's sheep are not fooled by people like you. You and the rest of your make believe christians can get magically raptured by your make believe god and spend your 1000 yrs in bliss. Meanwhile the rest of God's true children will be furthering His kingdom and following His commands of making disciples of all the nations.

You still can't find any verses to support Calvinism without mindlessly inserting into the text. Why shut your mind down to this fact?

You exalt your will over the sovereign will of God because you refuse His will to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. God's grace is sufficient for all to come to Christ, whosoever is willing, but your god is impotent to be able to do this. Your god is like Hitler, for he sends the Jews to the gas chambers just because they were born Jews, just as your god sends people to Hell also never giving them any opportunity to be saved. What love is that? You're Satanic. Since it is evil for us to behave this way, how could it not be evil for your god, for surely God's standards are highest!

Since you are not born-again, naturally you reject being "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4.17) that "the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude 14), and "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev. 20.4) "over the nations" (2.26). Obviously, Christians are not reigning now. You simply don't have faith to believe "Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1.11).

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him" (Rev. 1.7). "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech. 14.4) to reign with a rod of iron.

You're a bad guy, an unsaved tare trying to look like the saved wheat. You might even walk among Christians trying to look like us, but you are not one of us. You don't belong to the Church. Matthew 13 warns about you. When God sowed "some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up" (v.4). The gospel never penetrated your heart because you always put up the wall of Calvinism between you and God: pride of thinking you were irresistibly selected, never coming to the cross sincerely as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior.

You're a bad guy through and through. Satan winks and nods as "men slept...came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way" (v.26). I for one though remain on the lookout for the evil heresy of Calvinism to help protect my brothers and sisters from such decrepit teaching, demonic and Satanic intrusion of a selfish salvation.

The reason you allegorize everything is because youd don't have faith in the Jesus who can do these things. So when you allegorize it all you debase it and belittle it. Your allegorizing is how you express your faithlessness. You are on evil dude rejecting our Lord Jesus for a false Christ.
09-23-2011, 02:26 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWinknod

God is the saviour of all men in that his atonement is sufficient to save all men, but only the elect are actually saved. Jesus died to effectually save His people. If you claim that Jesus actually is the saviour of all men you would be a universalist and I don't think you think that. Thus this verse doesn't negate anything I've claimed. The bible is clear that Jesus effectively died to redeem a particular people, His church, His sheep, His bride. That is why Arminians have to say that Christ's atonement doesn't actually save anyone. This is contrary to all of scripture. For anyone reading this , don't be fooled by this false theology.

The reason I claim that you have all the answers is that your position is at odds with God's plan. Thus you must think you know better than God how salvation works. I actually don't think you know much at all.

1 Peter 2:8-9, They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were DESTINED to do. But you are a CHOSEN race , a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. This obviously marks out a difference between the elect and the unelect, apart from any human action which is never mentioned.

Daniel 4:35, All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and He does according to His will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him "what have you done?" This is your position, accusing Him of doing His pleasure.

God says "I chose you" You say "I chose you" God is right, you are wrong.

You said "God is Savior of all men in that His atonement is sufficient to save all men, but only the elect are actually saved." That's true but you mean something quite different than what Christians believe. How is that sufficient to all to be able to save all by irresistibly imposing regeneration on all but not doing so? That would be evil and nefarious and totally insufficient. Heck, it would be evil to irresistibly impose regeneration on anyone for that matter. God in your scheme is the Savior of a person He sends to Hell whom He does not irresistibly impose regeneration on? Surely you jest! The verse says, "God is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10) because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, specially those who believe, because in believing a person receives what Jesus did for the whole human race on the cross to be one of the elect.

It does not say "specially those who are elect" but "specially those who believe," and it doesn't say "Savior of all because He can irresistibly impose regeneration on all." Try not to change the words into something else. Words have specific meaning. So it is wrong to effectively say what you are saying that "God is the Savior of some men in all places, specially those who believe" for that is redundantly nonsensical. Obviously, those who are saved in all the different places believed. And who are those who are saved who don't believe?

That would be weird to ineffectually save people so that God couldn't actually save anyone. You said, "If you claim that Jesus actually is the saviour of all men you would be a universalist." Where does the Bible say since "God is the Savior of all men" (1 Tim. 4.10) you have to be a universalist? Your issue is not with me but against God. Jesus died to save a particular people, not by irresistibly imposing regeneration on them, but by providing sufficient grace to all to have the free choice, something your god can't do. Why do Arminians have to say, Christ didn't die to save anyone because He chooses a particular people?

You accuse me of claiming to have all the answers, and the reason you gave is you said my faith is at odds with God's plan. How so? You don't explain yourself just assert yourself on your self-exalted pedestal like Satan does who also can't back up his accusations. We just discussed 1 Tim. 4.10, and I showed you how you misread this verse, insert into it what it doesn't say, and alter the meaning of words. I showed you how you contradicted yourself and how you reject "God is the Savior of all men." Why not deal with this problem you have? Respond to what was said. Be conscientious and courteous in response to Christians showing you why you are unsaved and going to Hell, because you selfishly refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated.

"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Pet. 2.8-9). This is a looking back upon our salvation. You said there is no human action in this verse? How is "they disobey the word" not human action? Where does "destined" (ESV) or "appointed" (ASV, KJV) or "were set" (Young's) or "that was planned for them" (NLT) demand irresistibly imposed regeneration rather than God predestinating by foreknowing our free choice? Again, your favorite pastime is to insert into the text that which not explicitly stated, and you don't seem to have the humility to repent of your reoccurring problem. The reason you don't is because you are unwilling to come to God with all your heart. "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart" (Jer. 29.13).

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'" (Dan. 4.35) Where is this my position accusing Him of doing His pleasure? Rather, you are like Satan accusing and sinning bearing false witness, for again, as is the nature of a Calvinist, you assert on a pedestal pridefully self-declaring your accusation, yet do not show it. Satan can't show his accusations are true either. You take after your father and carry on the same traits. You don't have a conscience to realize this behavior is wrong. And why reject God's good pleasure to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world, that which your god is unable to do?

God says "I chose you." Where does God choosing demand He irresistibly impose regeneration? Where is the evidence for this heresy? Rather, God chose those who choose Him, for God provides sufficient grace to us all, pleads with us all and implores us to believe in Him, thus placing the responsibility us, otherwise it is all just a charade and pretentious just like you. Do you see how your faith is a reflection of your own selfish self? Just know that while you are into this "will worship" (Col. 2.23)-asserting in your own strength by your will you were irresistibly selected-, no Christian believes this, and we would feel ugly inside to believe God irresistibly selected us and preteritioning billions without the sufficient grace to have the choice. What love is that? God wants a real relationship, not with those who puff themselves up, but with those who genuinely come to the cross as helpless sinners and believe on the Lord Jesus to be regenerated. Praise the Lord! Amen.

We've hit the essence of your craziness when you said God is the Savior of all men because He can save all but doesn't. Because He doesn't save all that is why He is the Savior of all men? All Christians know God is the Savior of all men because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, supplying sufficient grace to all to have the free choice, to save whosoever is willing. Looking back upon our salvation, we repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated. You didn't because you don't want to, that's why you are going to Hell. You prefer your self life, desperately cling to it, unwilling to let go of it and lose it in order to gain it. There was no letting go, thus not letting Jesus take the reigns. You can't let go if you continue to assume you were irresistibly selected. Jesus will never receive you with that attitude exalting yourself.
09-24-2011, 01:58 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWinknod

You continually say God chooses people because of their action of choosing Him first. This idea is not in the bible, and throughout this discussion you have failed to provide even a single verse that states this. Where is human free will choice as a deciding factor in election, found in scripture? You accuse me of claiming that God chooses certain people for His church,which is what the bible teaches. Until you can answer this challenge you may as well quit your multiple opinionated rants. A single answer will suffice. Are you capable?

1 Peter 2:8-9, They disobey the word because we all disobey the word. We are all totally depraved so we all disobey. This is why regeneration must occur before the elect CAN obey. The bible states we are all gone astray, and none seek God in their unregenerate state. You must start to realize that the only way anyone comes to God is because they have been chosen and brought to saving faith, independent of anything we have done. Your theology is completely at odds with the whole plan of salvation. Your theology only works if you ram your presuppositions into the bible.

You keep saying it is not in the Bible that God chooses those who chose Him, but of course it is as has been shown to you many times many verses how God implores us and pleads with us to believe in Him, thus showing us that He has given us the free choice. You keep thinking man's free choice afforded to man is the deciding factor of election, but no, God is the one who is the deciding factor. He is the one who wrote the rules and set it up so that man must fulfill the condition, having supplied him with more than ample grace to have the free choice. You should be concerned because not only can you not find a single verse to support your irresistibly imposed regeneration theory, but you were unable to overturn any of the verses given in support of God able to and does give us the free choice. Your god can't do this, I grant you that.

As we have reoccuringly noticed, your favorite pastime is to sin bearing false witness. Here you said, "You accuse me of claiming that God chooses certain people for His church." I never accused you of "claiming that God chooses certain people for His church." Where did I do that? If I did that surely you could quote me doing so, but you can't, so why sin bearing false witness if you are on the up and up? What God accuses you of and are guilty of is claiming that He irresistibly chooses people for His church and sends people to Hell giving them no opportunity for salvation. When you phrase your words, why be so uncontentious not to realize this mistaken you make?

Until you realize this lack of discernment you had in phrasing what you said, I would not if I were venture into all the other points I bring up that you still have yet left undealt with that show your faith is false. A single answer can address one problem you have, but another response should be allowed to address another false idea you bring up regarding your false faith. Are you capable of understanding that? Sure you are, for you are not Totally depraved. God said if you come to Him with all your heart, He will receive you. Surely a loving God would not say such a thing if you could not, indeed, respond freely.

"And, 'He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall.' They stumble because they do not obey God's word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them. But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God's very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light" (1 Pet. 2.8-9).

Why do they stumble on the stone? Because "they do not obey God's word." It does not say "because they are made to not obey God's word." God has "planned for them" their fate because as you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You are not chosen because you refuse to receive the God of sufficient grace for all and truly come to the cross as a helpless sinner to be regenerated. You're being fake and disingenuous. But God calls His elect out of the wonderful light as He predestinated them by foreknowing their free choice. Those He predestinates He also calls (Rom. 8.30). Your god can't do this.

Everyone disobeys because everyone is a sinner. You are not Totally depraved, nobody is, for you can still help an old lady across the street. You're a sinner, you're depraved, you disobey like everyone, but you are not Totally depraved. No Scripture verse supports this heresy. Understand yourself! Realize why you teach Total depravity. It is because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, but now you have to rationalize your selfish stance, so you concoct an idol called Total depravity which says you can't, so you don't. What can you do next but, so ugly, pridefully assume you were irresistibly selected like Hitler and his Aryan race does. You're a bad guy.

1 Pet. 2.8-9 is not saying everyone disobeys; that's not the point of the passage; but that many have come to Christ. Read the verse again. It is contrasting those who believe and those who don't. It is placing the blame on those who don't believe: "They stumble because they do not obey God's word." How evil that would be to blame them if it was not their fault by being born into sin without any grace whatsoever to have the free choice. That's sick! You're sick. They stumble on the rock because they don't want to submit themselves to God like Christians have. They, in fact, worship a false Christ as you do. Since nobody is Totally depraved you don't need irresistibly imposed regeneration. Throw it away. It's garbage. When the Bible says none seek after God this is indeed our condition if God were not to supply sufficient grace to us all to have the free choice, but He does just that. This is called prevenient grace. What a great God God is that He can do this and your god can't. Actually, in a sense, it goes with the righteousness and holiness of God. Anything less or 'other' would be evil!

You must learn to realize this is a false statement you have made: "You must start to realize that the only way anyone comes to God is because they have been chosen and brought to saving faith, independent of anything we have done." Since you can find no verse in Scripture to support this idea, why believe it unless you are just priding yourself on a pedestal assuming you are irresistibly selected? How unattractive. Your colors are showing. A person is drawn and brought to saving faith, because the Bible says that person comes to God with all their heart. This is something you are unwilling to do, so you remain an unregenerate. God requires the conditional to be fulfilled since God is relational and personal; that is, for you, yes you, to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, something you're yet unwilling to do and may never.

Your theology and false Christ you worship are completely at odds with the whole plan of salvation. You're chosen Satan's counterfeit salvation. Your theology doesn't even work when you ram your presuppositions into the Bible, because how well is that really going to work always feeding the pride of assuming you were irresistibly selected? Where is the humility in that? Sin will beget sin, self begets self. Your condition can only worsen. It seems to me you have some sense you know you are going to Hell, because any Christian I know is totally turned off with the idea of being irresistibly selected and sending people to Hell for no othe reason than they were born into sin which is not their fault. When someone can speak these plain words to you and you shut your mind down and close yourself off, I think your decision has long since been decided to go to Hell in your heart of heats. How sad for you.

Start to realize that the only way anyone comes to God is not because they have been irresistibly chosen or forced into saving faith, independent of anything we have done, but because in drawing everyone God has provided sufficient grace to us all to have the free choice, whereby many in their own sovereign free will come to God (in which God saves the most and damns the least) with all their heart so that God graces them with the gifts of repentance and faith unto regeneration. Praise the Lord!