The Disingenuousness of Atheists

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06-13-2012, 04:22 PM
Parture

The Disingenuousness of Atheists

Re: iridescentsquids @ Youtube

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentsquids

"If you don't believe in God it is because you don't believe he exists"

Ah...not exactly. My reasons for not believing aren't "because I don't believe he exists". The reason I don't believe in any of the many concepts of God I've heard is because I'm just not convinced by any of the reasoning or evidence that I've heard. So far. That doesn't mean some day I won't hear evidence that will change my mind, or that I've even made up my mind completely. It just means so far I don't believe.

You admit you "don't believe" God exists. That's Atheism, not Agnosticism. If you were rational you would not hold that position, because you admit you have not made up your "mind completely." An Agnostic has not made up his "mind completely" so he makes no such claim of himself, "I don't believe" God exists. It is illogical and contradictory to be both an Atheist and an Agnostic simultaneously.

I stated, "If you don't believe in God it is because you don't believe he exists" on the assumption you would abide in logic of it since you admit you "don't believe in God." Of course such does not hold true if you violate that logic.

Because you come to the table with this lack of humility and willingness to contradict yourself, nobody can help you, because you are unwilling to recognize you are being dishonest with yourself at the outset.

Quote:

"Whereas Agnostics don't say they don't believe in God, but they say God could exist. "

Actually, an agnostic simply says they do not "know" (the root "gnostic" means "knowledge", not belief.) . So an agnostic is simply saying they think the answer to the question is not known, or maybe is not knowable. Although I suppose somebody might change their mind a lot, I'm hard pressed to imagine a state in which a person neither believes nor disbelieves, or does both at the same time. If a person is neither believing or not believing, the closest thing I can imagine is that they are changing their mind a lot...sometimes believing and sometimes not as they weigh evidence back and forth.

An Agnostic is not divorced from belief, for they believe they can't know presently; hence, they make no claim God exists or does not exist as you do. I am glad you admit "disbelieving" is not believing, opposite of "believing". To neither disbelieve or believe is what an Agnostic does, because he is not sure. They say God could exist. A person does not have to change their mind, but remains uncertain.

Your problem is you admit you are not sure if God exists yet you believe He does not exist since you don't believe in Him. That is doublespeak. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

Quote:

The most important thing to get out of this discussion, in my opinion, is that it's very possible to say "I don't believe in God because I'm not convinced by the evidence I've heard", without saying "I believe..." or "I know..." that God does not exist.

What you should realize is that it is impossible to say logically you "don't believe in God" when you admit you are "not convinced" either way, unless you are willing to believing mindlessly. Since you are willingly to believe mindlessly, it shows a certain disingenuousness. But if you renounced Atheism and became an Agnostic then you would be in a better position to move forward with your life because you would be willing to examine the evidence without deciding ahead of time that you believe God does not exist since you don't believe in Him. This is what I want you to appreciate.

Quote:

I am such a person. I don't believe in God. But I'm not certain no God exists, or that I've heard all I need to hear to make a definitive statement regarding God or Gods. Far from it. I totally, fully accept that I do not know, and I do not proclaim certainty regarding the truth. I ONLY can tell you with certainty that I don't believe. I know that to be the case. The truth is something that requires evidence to know, and evidence is something we are always getting more of. So I can't disprove, and would make not attempt to disprove, any theist claim.

Since you admit you "do not know" then you should not say you "don't believe in God." I can't lead you into the proof for God and who God is until you appreciate your contradiction in claiming you "don't believe in God" yet admit you "do not know." Such dishonesty with yourself is something you are going to have to let die before you can move forward.
06-13-2012, 10:25 PM
Parture

iridescentsquids,

You say you don't believe in God. Is it because you believe God does not exist? (atheist) or is it because you are not sure (agnostic)?

In Christianity the word "millennial" means the millennial kingdom Jesus returns to to reign over the nations with His overcomers.

False Christians believe in what is called "amillennial". This is the belief that the millennial kingdom doesn't exist, that Jesus won't return to reign on earth 1000 years.

They are not merely saying they don't believe or lack belief, but they are saying it doesn't exist, for they believe the 1000 years is happening right now and that Jesus won't return to earth to reign over the nations. They have no faith that Jesus will do this.

Likewise, if you were an atheist you would believe God does not exist. This is the main dictionary definition. Otherwise, you remove from the English language the only word we have for the belief God does not exist.

Most souls who call themselves Atheists are really Agnostics. Surprisingly, there really is not that many actual Atheists out there, because that is totally belligerent without any evidence to support their claim. Most humans are not that daft.

We all know Agnostics are really playing games here calling themselves Atheists, trying to change the word Atheism to mean Agnosticism, so you remove the point of weakness in overtly claiming God does not exist by trying to change the meaning of Atheism.

Agnostics know that Atheism is untenable but they still want to call themselves Atheists because it arouses more conflict and confrontation. Agnostics prefer the word Atheism as it seems to be a more potent or powerful word, e.g. The Atheist Experience Show rather than The Agnostic Experience Show.

Something tells me the former will get better ratings.
06-14-2012, 11:06 AM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentsquids

I have never stooped to this low a level of ad hominem attacks as you are doing now. And calling me disingenuous because I disagree with you? Now all of a sudden I have to contend with your emotional baggage and animosity for people who disagree with you?

No, that is not the reason I said you were disingenuous. The reason you are disingenuous as I already said is because you come to the table with a blatant contradiction that you will have to let go of for a more forthright conversation between us.

It is quite disingenuous to harbor a blatant contradiction such as saying You don't believe in God because you are not sure if He exists. Making a decision to already not believe in Him even though you admit you don't have evidence either way is quite disingenuous. You're just being dishonest with yourself.

Why is it that you are allowed to employ ad hominem attacks but I can't? I am not saying I have, for I provided evidence for the conclusion you are disingenuous and lack humility to see your contradiction. It's time to grow up and stop being so immature. To copy your own words, you're just being "weird and silly." What is in your heart is full of hostility to your Creator. There is no doubt about that! Where's the humility in that? I am not sure how you could expect me to respect such an attitude as this that you have.

You appealed to your "good intentions," but you know what they say about good intentions, they pave the way to Hell. Self-righteousness masqueraded as good intentions is not good at all. I suggest you come to the table by dropping this contradiction. You're going to have to let your "good self" as well as your "petty self" die even on the cross.

So the word in the English language that has always meant belief God does not exist remains the same word it always has been. You don't get to change it to mean the same thing as Agnosticism to deflect away from the fact that Atheists do in fact believe God does not exist. That's a red herring. That simply will not do.

If you want to continue this conversation, I suggest you address this belligerency of yours immediately. And I will continue to pray for your understanding.
06-14-2012, 11:36 AM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentsquids

you have to post my comments on a blog forum

Yes of course. I left out all your ad hominems such as "creepy" and "weird" as that is not constructive to our conversation, though it does show you have a doublestandard because you accuse of ad hominems but apparently it is ok for you to commit these sins. Shame you on. Not too ethical are you? I found the need to post your comments here to not just expose you for posterity (every year a copy of this page gets saved on the Internet Archive for eternity), but to get you to be more forthright with me, because in our private discussion, frankly, you were boring me with your repetitive errors in logic.

Quote:

Although belief need not be contingent upon logic (we can believe things for irrational reasons), it is perfectly logical to withhold belief, or not believe in a particular claim, until evidence has been presented that makes that claim believable. This is perfectly logical. I would describe such a state as a state of disbelief. Disbelief does not require certainty, and is entirely logical if the evidence provided is not convincing enough to merit belief. I don't need to be certain that no evidence exists that I am not aware of. I need only maintain a healthy skepticism as I await more information, and in the mean time assess the veracity of a claim based on the evidence at hand.

Certainly someone can believe something illogically, but that is my whole point that you are being dishonest with yourself and disingenuous with others for doing so. Withholding belief is Agnostic. One withholds a belief because they are not sure. This is not the same thing as believing God does not exist which is what Atheists do. "Disbelief" according to the M-W dictionary is "mental rejection of something as untrue." Rejecting something as untrue is to claim it is not true. So what you call disbelief is in fact believing God does not exist. Here again, we see you trying to change the meaning of words already established.

Furthermore, we are not talking about probabilities here just the simple error in your thinking that God does not exist even though you admit you don't have evidence either way. This is disingenuous, not coming to the table honestly and sincerely. On the other hand if you choose to renounce your atheism and become agnostic then we are in a position to move forward to examine the proof for God which I would be happy to do so with you personally when you are ready.

Quote:

This is where you seem to be making your logical error. You seem to be asserting that disbelief requires certainty or complete knowledge--omniscience really. It does not.

I never said that. Why assume I believe something that I don't? You love your assumptions don't you? Hopefully, you will reconsider some of your words now that you know I am posting your responses online so I can speak to a more thoughtful person. I am hoping and praying.

Quote:

I would posit that it is illogical for me to claim to know with certainty that no such evidence exists, or that the claim is definitely false. It's illogical because I would need to be omniscient to know with certainty

What you are experiencing in this claim of yours is called the "petty self" which is entirely illogical. As I said before we are not talking about probabilities. That is not the issue. Even so, the fact is, you can know with 100% certainty there are no square circles or married bachelors. Likewise, God has given us the proof of His existence and exactly who He is with 100% certainty, but you simply just don't want to hear that proof. You shut your mind down through your red herring, misdirecting by trying to change the time tested word Atheism into Agnosticism so there is no word in the English language for not believing in God because of not believing in His existence.

Though you don't have a conscience to realize this unethical contradiction and disingenuous slight of hand, a person of faith can easily see the games you play. Just know this blockage in your heart that you set up through this contradiction is the very thing that is preventing you to take a step towards the uncreated Creator. My job and responsibility incumbent on me is simply to keep pointing out this disingenuous nature of your reasoning until as soon as you repent, have a change of mind, to move to the next level.