Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ Tallmadge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
Welcome! Not sure about the Trinity? How come?
Is there some way to post attachments instead of lengthy messages? Thanks. Russ
Yes, by using the forums for what it was meant for, by posting in the forums and using the attachments feature there. Attachments are not something for PM's and first email to someone. After you email someone one time, if they respond then you have their email if you want to send an attachment that way or by using msn messenger or skype, etc which if people want they would give in their profile if they wanted to be contacted by those means.
Quote:
December 24, 2005
Dear Cynthia,
Initially I was not going to send this. However, you commented in your second email that I might be “better suited” for another group. I believe by this statement you may have inadvertently made my point about the Trinity doctrine being “a device of the adversary to create division in the Body of Christ” better than I ever could have. The following thoughts did not all originate with me (sorry, I don't know whom to give attribution), but do reflect my (present) understanding.
I don't recall saying "better suited" or saying anything of the kind. Surely you are mistaken. Why do you misrepresent then? As we will see we will find the Trinity brings the body of Christ into being and builds the body. For starters I can see you are hostile to God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit (the Trinity). That would not be a good start for you.
Quote:
You know, we like to say that there are no contradictions in the Scripture (and I firmly believe this is so), and yet it seems we make an allowance for the doctrine of the trinity. Why? Usually the reason given is because we can't fully understand God's infinite nature.
This is not the reason we accept the Trinity. We accept the Trinity because the Scriptures constantly bear out God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Why reject any one of these 3 Persons of the Godhead or confuse them? Just because of your absence in communication with the Spirit through the Son unto the Father, does not hinder the Trinity in the lives of Christians.
Quote:
Given all the Scripture that says the most important thing that God wants, is that we know Him (John 17:3), and thus love and obey Him, it seems quite odd that there would be confusion or apparent contradictions on knowing God. It seems to me that God would have revealed Himself fully in terms of His person, name, characteristics and so forth. In fact, Jesus Himself said in vss 6-8 of the same chapter,
"I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave to Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things, whatever You have given Me, are from You. For I have given to them the Words which You gave Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from You. And they have believed that You sent Me."
"No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master does. But I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you" (v.15).
It is not odd at all that people reject Christ, for that is why Hell is so vast, and people have the right to reject Him if that is what they want. God has fully revealed Himself so there are no excuses. "Known surely that I came forth from You" (v.8) does not the Father became the Son but that the Father chose to bring forth the Son, even the Son agreed.
Quote:
Clearly one of Jesus' main missions on his first coming was to reveal his Father as well as himself as the Messiah. If this be so, how can confusion and contradiction remain regarding knowing who Jesus is and who his Father is? We are not just talking about an infinite aspect of God's nature, but rather the issue of Who God is.
It is because as was said at the top of Biblocality Forums, the flesh lusts against the Spirit even in presuming to worship God. Why be surprised by this at all?
Quote:
The most common version of the trinity doctrine states that "God is three separate persons yet is one Person; there is one God, yet this God is manifest in three Persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit."
The original does not say the Trinity is "one Person" as you say; this is your mistaken assumption. That's called modalism. The Church has long since rejected modalism. There is one Godhead who is not a Person, but 3 Persons.
Quote:
Obviously this is contradictory, in terms of reasoning and logic. 1 is 1, not 3. How can God be three Persons and those three persons also be one Person? A mild equivocation on this would be, "God is three persons yet one God". OK, fair enough. Then let me ask you, does God have the attributes of a Person, that is communicates in a rational language, thinks, Loves, is jealous, etc.? If the answer is "yes", then you are right back at a pure contradiction instead of an implied contradiction. If you don't like the term "person", it does not change the basic contradiction, for it remains in statements like, "God is three, and yet these three beings are one being"; or, "God is three, yet He is also one." No matter how you state it, what is being said is that three equals one.
1 is 1 which is 3, for the 3 Persons of the Godhead are of one substance; distinct but not separate. The unregenerated spirit can't conceive this because it is without God's uncreated life to be able to understand by the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit does not indwell the spirit that is dead to God.
These 3 Persons of the Godhead are Persons, not in the human sense of the word person. These 3 Persons are revealed to us by the activities of the Father, Son and Spirit. Never do we say the council of the Godhead is a Person, for what council is ever called a Person? Why debase the Godhead to a human quality of a person only? Christians don't do that, nor should you.
Quote:
We like to say that we base our beliefs on ALL the counsel of the Scripture, and not just a few isolated verses. This is definitely a wise position. So how does the trinity doctrine stand up to this approach to the Scripture?
If you ask someone whose theology is Trinitarian for all the verses that plainly and clearly support the Trinitarian view, at the most, you will get maybe ten verses, and in fact I cannot find one verse in the entire Bible that plainly states that God is three yet One.
Christians can supply far more than 10 verses, for all books of the Bible show in so many ways the 3 operations of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Whenever you see the Father mentioned, this is the 1st Person. Whenever you see the Son, this is the 2nd Person. Whenever you see the Spirit, this is the 3rd Person. Why so hostile to this fact? Would it not be because you are still in your head leaving your spirit unaffected so as not to have the sensitivity of Spirit testifying with spirit?
Quote:
If you take away the 5 or so weakly inferential verses, then there are about 3 or 4 verses that seem to support the Trinitarian doctrine. Yet how many verses clearly contradict the Trinitarian view? There are dozens. This is not a matter of a few verses clarifying or modifying a Scriptural teaching. Rather, it is a matter of dozens and dozens of verses seemingly contradicting less than half a dozen. The question that needs to be answered is why do we cling to the half dozen or so?
I can find not even one verse that rejects the Trinity. Yet I can find hundreds of verses, if not thousands of verses for the Trinity. Since you have not made your case, I need not respond to that which you have not yet shown an will never be able to.
Quote:
God is infinite, thus we cannot really understand Him. Yet, we can know at some level, that He is infinite because we have language to express and communicate this truth - if this were not so, you could not comprehend what I just wrote. If we have language to have some understanding about even His infinite characteristics, should we not also be able to understand His revelation to us in the Scripture about Himself, and who He is?
God is infinite, so we can understand Him that which He has revealed to us. Just because He is infinite does not mean He makes Himself utterly unknown, for the Son broke into creation to show Us His way.
Quote:
The Trinitarian view is that while the Father and the Son are separate identities, yet they are the same God. I believe this view is, at the least, contradictory and there are dozens, if not hundreds of verses that plainly state that Jesus and his Father are not the same God/person/identity. In addition there are dozens of verses that plainly contradict the Trinitarian concept of Jesus being the Most High God. Though there are many more, here are a few:
Identities implies independence, but they are united, describing God's complexity as 3 Persons. The Godhead is not a person, but 3 Persons. God is the identity in 3 Persons. He is God so we say God is God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. Understand that by your rejection of the Godhead's Triune Being, you are saying unequivocally that you are an unregenerate. As we go through these verses together, notice not one of them justify your position.
Quote:
Matthew 4:1 states: Then Jesus was led by the Spirit up into the wilderness, to be tempted by the Devil." In fact, in the book of Hebrews where we have been for the last few weeks agrees. Hebrews 4:15 says that we do not have a high priest that cannot sympathize with us, but one that was tempted in every respect, yet without sin. Hebrew 2:18 as well tells us that he (Jesus) himself has suffered being tempted. However, James 1:13, says in part, "for God cannot be tempted by evil". Jesus was tempted by the devil to do evil, so Jesus cannot be God the Most High.
This does not mean Satan won't try to tempt God. It means even though Satan tries to tempt God, God can never be tempted. Do you see how you misread this verse? Major mistake! So Jesus is still God and this verse doesn't help you justify your false teaching.
Quote:
Mark 10:18 he says: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, that is, God".
Jesus, sinless, yet in his humility, as always, honored his Father above himself.
Yes, because His job was to break into creation to show perfect humility unto the Father. Only Jesus was sinless in creation, because He is God. He emptied Himself of His independent attributes to be in the likeness of flesh, not actually the flesh.
Quote:
In Mark 14:36 Jesus says: "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will."
It is possible for the One Perfect God's will to be divided?
There is no division here. Just because Jesus is showing his human qualities, acting very human when in the body of a man, this does not divide Him from the Father at all. If the Godhead held council for this event to happen, how can that be division, for we see the Son rose from the grave to be at the right hand of the Father.
Quote:
Matt. 27:46 reads: "'My God, My God, why have your forsaken Me?'"
God the Most High, has a God? The Most High God can forsake Himself?
Yes, the Father can let the Son die on the flesh for our sins to provide eternal forgiveness for the unsaved.
Quote:
Mark 13:32: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father".
Jesus is the Most High God, but does not know something that his Father knows? This is particularly interesting as some Trinitarians will cite verses to prove that Jesus is omniscient, yet how does this verse fit into that hypothesis?
Remember the comment about Jesus emptying Himself of His independent attributes to come in the likeness of flesh so as not to know some things? Do you see how this fits in now? Understand that Jesus had to make Himself so in likeness of men, that naturally He would empty Himself of certain qualities to achieve that aim to be the perfect atonement and show us how to live life perfectly by the Spirit.
Quote:
Luke 4:12 says: "And Jesus answered and said to him, 'It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God'"
In resisting Satan's temptation Jesus said that it would be sinful for him to tempt his Father. God can tempt Himself?
There is no question Jesus would never tempt the father since they are both in the Godhead. It would be sinful for anyone to tempt the Father, for Satan to do so, and God would not tempt Himself either. Though man can go against his own conscience, God will never go against His Own will.
Quote:
Luke 6:12 reads: "Now it came to pass in those days that He (Jesus) went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God"
The Most High God prays to Himself? Notice that the verse does not say, 'Jesus talked with his Father', but rather that he prayed to his God.
God the Father is Whom He prayed to, again showing us the 3 operations of the Trinity. Jesus showed us how to pray. We pray to the Father, through the Son's method by the Holy Spirit indwelling.
Quote:
In Luke 22:29 Jesus states: "And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as my Father bestowed one upon me".
The Most High God bestowed a kingdom upon Himself? Didn't God already have control over all Kingdoms?
In the council of the Godhead the Father agreed to have the Son have a kingdom so that the Son of Man is Lord over all creation. The Father did not bestow a kingdom unto the Father, but the Son. God did not have control over sinful man, but through the Son, He shall have an obedient kingdom.
Quote:
Luke 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, he said, 'Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit'". Having said this, he breathed his last."
God is spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit. Whose spirit was committed into the hands of the Father? If it was Jesus', then there is division even in the spirit of God?
The spirit of the Son was committed unto the Father. Because Jesus has an independent spirit in the Godhead, this does not create division in the Godhead at all, but exemplifies the fact that all 3 Persons of the Godhead are in fact "spirit". There is perfect harmony in the Godhead.
Quote:
In John 1:18 & 1 John 4:12 it says: “No one has seen God at any time."
What more can be said?
Nothing much more. No human being has ever seen God, but since Jesus is God, of course, He has seen the Father. Before the foundations of the world, He and the Father with the Spirit decided to create and so are we here now today!
Quote:
John 14:28 says: "If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father', for my Father is greater than I."
If Jesus is truly the Most High God, equal with his Father, than how can his Father be "greater" than he, in any respect? This is especially interesting in this passage as the context speaks nothing about physical things or his physical nature, but rather about his imminent glorification.
He is greater in the respect of the fact that the Son had removed from Himself His independent attributes when in creation as a man. As the council of the Godhead agreed, the Son would show perfect obedience in creation to show man how to live. The Father remains co-equal and co-inherent in this operation, but for the purposes of creation, the Son was made Lord over all, while the Father maintains His throne in Heaven. And so Jesus was raised to the right hand of the Father to that Throne. He shall return to reign on Earth in the 1000 years (Rev. 20.2-7) from the Temple in Jerusalem.
Whether on Earth or Above, Jesus maintains that glorification given to Him by the Father to be Lord of all and have all things sum up in Christ.
Quote:
John 19:33 says: "But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break his legs."
The Almighty God, God the Most High, the Eternal One, died?
Yes. You are not a Christian, but are already condemned by God to go to Hell (John 3.18).
Quote:
John 20:17 says: “I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God."
Jesus is ascending to his "God". How can the Most High God have a God?
By emptying Himself of His independent attributes to be erected as the Lord of all.
Quote:
Also some argue that Jesus was subject to the Father while He was in the form of a man, but that this is not so in His glorified state. If this is so then how are we to understand 1 Cor. 15:28? It clearly states: "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
Since it clearly says here that Jesus will be made subject to God in the final consummation. Precious sister, how can the Most High God be made subject to Himself?
Jesus was not Lord in the eternity of the past, but only became Lord when the Godhead decided this was necessary for the souls of men.
Follow these simple steps of understanding: a) the Godhead decided the Son would be Lord, b) once this is achieved and perfect obedience is achieved, then c) obviously, since Jesus is perfectly obedient to the Father, all creation would be perfectly obedient as well unto the Father. It is a perfect causal chain. Then in Rev. 22.1, we find an equality "proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb". "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (v.3). "And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads" (v.4). Do you see how it says "God and of the Lamb" then says "him" the one in same Godhead. God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit shall be on their foreheads.
Quote:
In the account of Stephens death in Acts 7:55-56 It states: "But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
How is it that the Most High God is either seated or standing next to Himself?
The Most High God is God the Father when speaking of the operations of the Godhead.
This is how we express the complexity of the interaction of the Persons of the Godhead for we know the Son was given to erect upon man obedience unto the Father.
Quote:
Back to Hebrews:
Heb. 1:4 states in part: "…having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."
What does the Most High God need to inherit? Doesn't He already own all things? The Most High God needed to obtain a more excellent name than the angels?
The Most High God is God the Father. The Son inherits what the council of the Godhead agreed that He shall inherit which are sons of God. Why? Because God wants to walk with man created in His image and who will receive His same life.
"When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not" (Luke 8.28).
Do you see how you are confusing the Son of God for God the Father?
Quote:
Heb. 1:9 "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
Again, God the Most High has a God? Would it not be more reasonable to say that there is the Most High God, the Father, and His equally Divine Son?
Heb. 5:8 states: "…though He was a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered. The Most High God needed to learn obedience? To whom?
God the Father is God Most High. The Son is being obedient unto the Father. The Most High God is the Father and His Son is equally the Divine God for they are both in the Godhead. The reason you see this obedience unto the Father by the Son is because He is showing man how to live a life Christ-like.
As Jesus became a man, he suffered as men suffer. Just as a boy grows up and learns, so did Jesus, for this is showing the human side in being in the likeness of flesh. Isn't that most wonderful? I think it is absolutely glorious that God is so loving that He would do this to show this obedience and suffer for us in learning that obedience as He moved day by day toward the cross.
Quote:
Then in verse 9 it says in part : “And having been perfected…”
The Most High God needed to be perfected?
Being made perfect refers to the completion of His assigned task to die on the cross and raised from resurrection. All that He did was unto that perfection.
Quote:
Rev. 5:7 says, speaking of Jesus ”Then he (Jesus, the Lamb of God) came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him (God the Father) who sat on the throne."
The Most High God is taking a scroll from the Most High God?
Yes. Why does this offend you?
Quote:
In terms that we can understand, a father and son who are close, can be in unity in all things. Also if he chooses, the father can grant his son all his rights and authority. That is he can even lend his son his name, so that the son has authority do everything the father does. While this is an imperfect analogy, might it not shed some light on the relationship of our heavenly Father and His Son?
Yes. How wonderful that God uses human understanding to relate divine truths of God's Triune Being.
Quote:
God is either One, or not - this is a very simple and clear proposition. Should we rely on non-Scriptural philosophies and psychological theories about the divided nature of God? When the Son says in Matt. 27:46, "'My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?'" why can't we receive the plain meaning? Why do we instead strain to come to "dual nature" explanations? Is it possible that it’s because we are hanging onto a tradition of men? Why do we reject the dozens and dozens of verses of Scripture that refute the Trinitarian view, in favor of a which appear to support it?
Why can't you receive the plain meaning of the council of Godhead showing this to mean His obedience unto the Father for all mankind? For Jesus said He is the great "I AM". Only God is sinless. There is no dual nature of God, but one nature, and that nature is Holiness. God is Triune, not Biune. The traditions of men are those such as so many heresies we can mention such a modalism.
Since you still could not find a single verse in the Bible yet that indicates God is not Triune, then what does that make you but bound for Hell for worshiping not God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.
Why do you reject the truth of the Word of God? It is because you seek in yourself some way to exalt yourself above God and this is how you do it. I am completely not surprised by that at all, for men will try every kind of reviling way against Jesus going on the cross to die for your sins.
Quote:
Jesus Christ is properly honored by believing who he says he is, not by making him into something he is not as with the Roman Catholics’ doctrine of Mary. If we say for instance that Jesus ought to be honored above his Father, will that glorify Jesus more?
Just as the Roman Church is wrong in claiming Mary is sinless, so too are you wrong in rejecting God's Son as being God the Son. You would be instead worshiping a man (not God) who is sinless (not possible unless he is God), which is a lie just as Mary is not sinless. Since Jesus in the Godhead is equal with the Father, why would you raise Jesus above the Father? But the Son agreed to be the Lord in creation while the Father remained God Most High. Our obedience unto the Son of God as God the Son is our obedience unto God Most High as God the Father because if we are obedient unto the Son who was obedient unto the Father, we will be obedient unto the Father. It is not the Father who broke into creation, but the Son.
Quote:
Dear sister, I definitely consider myself to be a truth seeker. That being the case, it seems that I am left to either accept that the Scripture has contradictions in regard to a "major" doctrine regarding God's Person, or to conclude that the doctrine is what’s in error. That would not present such a problem if not for the fact that many, if not most, in Christendom make the trinity doctrine the most important theological litmus test for "Christianity"…I do not because I can understand how people are confused regarding this doctrine.
There is no teaching in the Word of God about the Godhead being a Person. This is a heresy called modalism, and the source of your false teaching. Do you see how you overlook this third choice: that you are wrong in thinking the Godhead is a Person instead of 3 Persons? Since this is really a non-issue for Christians and only becomes an issue for non-Christians it stands to reason why you make it such an issue since you are not a Christian. Most in Christendom are not saved so it would also stand to reason that such confusion is far and wide.
Quote:
As I mentioned in my initial email yesterday I have no problem fellowshipping with those who believe the Trinitarian view, and do not look at it as a point of division from them to convince them otherwise. If I were to do this I would be ignoring the counsel in 1 Cor 4:6 not to go beyond what is written in getting “puffed up” one over the other. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, this attitude often does not extend the other way? However I do feel a responsibility to respond if my beliefs are challenged, and cannot promise I would not do so (always in Love of course). 1 Peter 3:15.
However, Christians do find it a problem in fellowshipping in vain with non-Christians or breaking bread with them, because they have not received God's life. You worship Jesus as not being God, so you are not saved by the precious blood of the sinless sacrifice, a sacrifice that can only be achieved by God. Just like the Roman Church worships a supposedly sinless human being, you do the same in claiming Jesus is not God. So you are not a Christian. By going beyond the Scriptures, you puff yourself up and rejecting God the Son who said He is the great "I AM"; and there are so many other verses that show us that Jesus is God. Here is more than one hundred of them, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/JesusGod.htm
Quote:
If I have not made my case…fine. If that is so, please let us just agree to disagree rather than looking at it as a point of division in the Body of Christ. And let us instead concentrate on the glorious gospel that we share.
Again, thank you for your consideration.
Your brother,
Russ
Christians don't recognize you as a member of the body of Christ and are convinced you are going to hell. We can not worship falsely with the "tares" who seek to exalt themselves by calling Jesus a liar.
Quote:
Just one more thing: Regarding the comment that Jesus’ reference to God being greater than He was only referred to His “human nature”. How does that square with the fact that Jesus also has a God since his resurrection (Rev. 3:12), and he does not still have his human nature in heaven?
The reason you make this last comment is because you are recognizing what has been said throughout, that the Son is obedient unto the Father, but that does not take away from Him being God. Even as God the Son in creation, He was being perfectly obedient, not only by his human nature when in creation. He was fully God and man in creation and was obedient to the Father as both fully God and man. He is the Godhead bodily. What you are teaching is mormonistic subordination-ism. So do you see how He was obedient to God the Father not only as man, but as God? Isn't that wonderful?
A Very Short Summary of Your Mistaken Assumptions: (1) Confusing terms, (2) Misunderstanding what the Trinity is, and 3) Drawing false conclusions from (1) and (2).
