Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

Where is the Evidence for Believing Jesus Didn't Die on the Cross?

I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross, and the bulk of these sources do mention his death on the cross (see Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus, The Historical Jesus, and The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas).

How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically? Normally historians focus on the primary sources closes to the timing of the events, so the Qu'ran is given no consideration because it has no evidence and we can't trust any spirit for that would not be prudent. Faith should be backed up by evidence. Test the spirits and "prove all things".

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4.1). If it does not line up with the word of God it is not to be trusted.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5.21).

The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.

Re: aadil77 @ islamicboard.com

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Originally Posted by aadil77

Jesus (peace be upon him) is alive, it was made to look like he had died on the cross:

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

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Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.

If the disciples were deceived God would be a liar, but God is no liar. And there is no purpose for God deceiving the disciples. Satan would though.

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Originally Posted by YusufNoor

there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for ANYTHING that happened during the Prophet-hood of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

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John the Baptist was pointing to Jesus, "Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him [Jesus]" (John 3.28). John the Apostle records this in his gospel account. John is the disciple whom Jesus loved most.

The Bible is full of contemporaneous accounts of the life of Jesus.

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there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for the martyrdom of ANY of the Sahabah of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

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John the Apostle places himself at the cross when Jesus died with the women specifically mentioned by name, including Jesus' mother. All the books of the Bible were written down right when their events occurred or shortly thereafter. Nobody in antiquity is so well documented.

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the EARLIEST written Gospel, [the one mislabeled the Gospel according to] Mark, DOES NOT contain ANY eyewitness accounts of a "risen Jesus." it's not until AFTER the time of what would have been the "martrydom of the disciples" that Gospel accounts appear claiming the falsehoods that you believe. your beliefs are based upon NEW religion that Paul preached AFTER he claimed that "his" testimony of Jesus was superior than that witnessed by Jesus' own disciples.

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We don't know which of the 4 gospels came first, but we do know they were all written down nearly right when the events occurred. Mark writes about the death of Jesus on the cross and said Jesus was resurrected and where to go so see Him. Mark 16 gives some resurrection appearances. This was a retrieved chapter that apparently was lost. Since all the disciples died around 65 AD, all the books of the NT were written before then except for Revelation, John the Apostle wrote around 95 AD. Acts written by Luke recounts many of the works and testimony of Paul which do not differ with the experiences of the Apostles. Whether you have the gospels only or Paul's writings only or Peter's writings only or John's writing only, the eyewitness testimony and message is the same in setting up the first churches. Paul's role was to travel to the Gentiles to set up the churches outside of Judea to spread the gospel of salvation to the world.

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we see evidence of the TRUE teachings of the one you call Jesus here:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard the Sadducees arguing. He noticed that Jesus had given the Sadducees a good answer. So he asked him, "Which is the most important of all the commandments?"

29 Jesus answered, "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind and with all your strength.'—(Deuteronomy 6:4,5) 31 And here is the second one. 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'—(Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment more important than these."

32 "You have spoken well, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one. There is no other God but him. 33 To love God with all your heart and mind and strength is very important. So is loving your neighbor as you love yourself. These things are more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely. He said to him, "You are not far from God's kingdom.

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Jesus was speaking of God the Father, not God the Son, as He showed perfect obedience unto the Father as only God the Son could do. Jesus is God the Son because He forgave sins, which only God can do, and when the scribes wanted to kill Jesus for being the Forgiver of sins, they accused him of claiming to be God, "who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2.7). Jesus responded, "And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question thus in your hearts?" (v.8). Now "ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy)" (v.10) when he healed him.

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as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

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Nonetheless wrong.

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as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.
peace

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It is a myth that Jesus didn't die on the cross without evidence or support overturn the evidence we have.

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Originally Posted by Aprender

Interesting point here but even in the words of John the Baptist that you posted doesn't necessarily say that Jesus (pbuh) was God but only to believe in him. It seems to me like a forced interpretation with those brackets added in. Why the modification? I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm not agreeing with you either.

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I think John is placing Jesus as God above all other men that ever lived or ever will live. To be that unique one must be God. Any other interpretation is forced. Why modify how John felt? If Jesus were just a man, John the Baptist would be sinning by exalting Jesus to such a high level that only God's shoes could fill.

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Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Actually, in "Lost Christianities" Bart Ehrman quotes Irenaeus in his book "Against Heresies" as refuting the notion that Basilides claimed Jesus transformed himself to look like Simon of Cyrene and vice versa such that the 'wrong man' was crucified. This is also supported in the "Second Treatise of the Great Seth", one of the Gnostic manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi, "another one was lifted up on the cross on his shoulder, who was Simon. Another was the one on whom they put the crown of thorns."Because we accept what the Quran says is true. Including the ascension of Jesus to be with God in 3:55 (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ.

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Since Irenaeus refutes someone taking Jesus' place, then that goes against what Muslims believe. And any gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant since they have no impact on the primary sources of the New Testament and early church fathers who knew the original disciples such as Clement of Rome and Polycarp.

Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross, then He most certainly died on the cross. You're in doubt about Jesus not having died on the cross.

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Originally Posted by aadil77

Like I said, your accounts confirm that obiously someone did die on the cross, but it was not Jesus, it was someone who was made to look like Jesus:

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
—Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489

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The record of the New Testament is that Jesus died on the cross and to confirm this even further the disciples reported they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Since Jesus wouldn't lie to them, nor did they lie, then it is true, they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

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Originally Posted by aadil77

Prophets are often exhalted high above men, because they have a high status as messengers of God, but this does not make them God Himself, or anything like even close to being God.

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Prophets are never exalted above all men that ever lived or ever will live as Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, created all things, and no man can come to the Father but by Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

For 3 centuries the early Christians also followed other books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas. But since these differed from the teachings of Paul and did not acknowledge Jesus(as) died on the cross they were cast out as being gnostic by the council of Nicea. You ever think of the possibility that the true gospels were cast out and the false ones kept? Keep in mind the Bible you have today came as a result of the choosing of books by the Popes between the year s 300 - 800. You are following the teachings of Catholicism, not the word of God(swt).

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Christians never followed the Gospel of Thomas (that's not Thomas in the Bible), Gospel of Peter (that's not 1 and 2 Peter), nor the gospel of Barnabas (that's not the Barnabas in the Bible). Christians already had the cannon, the 66 books of the Bible, before the end of the 1st century.

The Gospel of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas differ from every book of the Bible. Remember, gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant just as the Qu'ran is, since it is too late to the ball game. Basically everything you said was wishful thinking and goes completely contrary to the evidence.

You don't want to appreciate you are sinner in need of salvation, and only God can fulfill than through His only begotten Son by shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins and to give eternal life. Only God can take upon the sins of the world, and a just punishment is needed for sin which Jesus in our place saves us from Hell whosoever is willing to believe on Him as He really is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

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Originally Posted by MustafaMc

The point is that Basilides had written that Jesus did not die. Are not the Nag Hammadi manuscripts older than any surviving canonical gospel text?No, I have no doubt that he did not die, but the question remains for you, "Where does your salvation stand if he did not die on the cross?"

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No they are not older. They are too late to be of consideration. They come from the 3rd and 4th centuries.

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Originally Posted by aadil77

Exactly, They were not decieved, they knew about it, read the my post above.

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The Qu'ran says the disciples were deceived in claiming they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. God wouldn't deceive the disciples but Satan would. But the disciples weren't deceived. They reported the truth they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no evidence to the contrary. See my response above.

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Originally Posted by aadil77

Jesus can't save anyone, its every man for himself. You will be bitterly dissapointed on the Day of Judgement when Jesus will testify to that.

If you want to be saved, I suggest you start by repenting for worshipping a mangod rather than the Al-Mighty Creator - God Himself.

Even the disciples surrendered to God not Jesus:

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Qur'an 3:52

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Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross. So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.

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Originally Posted by aadil77

No its doesn't - prove it, it says the Jews thought they killed him but they didn't:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...

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The disciples continue to teach the life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and deity of Jesus so the disciples never stopped believing they had Seen Jesus alive form the dead in various group settings even to their martyrdom for this testimony.

Muhammad six centuries later says they were deceived by God, but God would not deceive them. So you are speaking of Satan. But the disciples were not deceived, since group hallucinations are impossible.

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Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

am not sure how a grown man or even a child can believe that God was a suckling pooping little boy from west Asia who self-immolated after spending a night in prayer to himself at Gethsemane .. perhaps there is something satisfying in that to the christian mind?.. I don't know.. it doesn't hold much water for anyone else.. and believe me I'd not waste my monumental efforts here.. how about you aim it at atheists? see how that fares with them?

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For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind to atone for sins on the cross, He would need to be just like one of us.

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

Until you accept the truth that Jesus(as) did not die, your salvation is very much at risk. Yes, you will enjoy a pleasant stay on earth as all good intentions are rewarded. May you learn the truth before it is too late and may your love for Jesus(as) guide you for learning what a great Prophet he is. But remember until you stop falsely worshiping Jesus(as) as a god, he will bear witness against you for worshiping another besides God(swt) Learn to love Jesus(as) the Prophet and give up your idolatry of a myth created by his enemies..

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Since all the evidence we have in Scripture is that Jesus did die on the cross, then we know it is true. Nothing exists to contrary. No naturalistic explanation can explain it away. Our sins were put upon Jesus, for only God can take the sins of the world upon Himself.

May God give you a conscience to realize you are a sinner in need of salvation, that sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, and the only way to atone for sins is if God in our stead pays that price on the cross, shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins. Salvation is not by works of pillars of Islam, but it is a free gift of God whosoever is willing to receive it as Abel did, giving an offering of the lamb which typifies Jesus; whereas Abel, jealous like Muhammad, killed Abel because God did not want an offering of his works like the pillars of Islam. God is infinitely greater than us so no works from us could satisfy His heart to receive initial salvation. Let go of your idols of Islam, but receive the One True God who loved you so much He entered His creation to save you from yourself.

Unless you stop calling the disciples liars, that they were deceived by God, how could you ever come to Christ to be saved by grace through faith and escape Hell?

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Originally Posted by aadil77

You have no evidence, just a book corrupted by greedy men, full of contradictions and mistakes Jealous? LOL prophet Muhammad and prophet Jesus are brothers in faith, they're both going to heaven, they have nothing to be jealous of. Do you really want to live your life worshipping a mangod? He couldn't even save himself from the cross so how will he save you? Wow, so humble of you. So now that you are saved you can do whatever you want like just the rest of all christians? You can fornicate, steal, rape, murder because you are already saved, yes? It makes so much sense, so much justice in christianity

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Since you can't show any greed in the disciples as they died for their testimony, contradictions or mistakes, what have you got?Why take after Satan accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10)? Why would Jesus being jealous other than for your love? God is a jealous God. Muhammad is jealous in a different way because like Cain, God rejecting his offering of works. The Bible says, no man shall be saved by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is a free gift of God to be freely accepted or rejected. I worship the Father through the Son by the Spirit since all 3 Persons of the Godhead are co-equal and co-inherent. No man on earth has ever been able to keep the perfect will of the Father except Jesus because Jesus is God the Son.

Do you really want to be so selfish as to remain separated from God by refusing what Jesus did for you on the cross? He died for you and you reject not only His atonement, but you make up six centuries later He didn't even go to the cross without any evidence to support your claim. God would never ask you to believe in something without evidence, but Satan would.

Jesus said He could have saved Himself from the cross, but He was unwilling to, since He knew His work would save man from his sins through His precious blood. Now that I am saved and have eternal life which can never be lost, if I decide to be a carnal Christian there are consequences. I would not only be raptured at the first rapture "befor the throne" (Rev. 7.9), but also I would not return with Christ to reign over the nations during the 1000 years (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20.4). 1000 years is a long time to lose this reward before entering the New City in the New Earth. If someone calls themselves a Christian yet murders, rapes and pillages, then clearly they were not born-again.

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Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

Those are empty words .. like when the Hindus contend when Ganesh's head was cut off the only other head his body could be replaced with was that of an elephant. fairy tales aren't logical and if not logical then there is no reason to bet ones eternity on it.. go convince the Jews your love so much of that self-immolating mangod see if you don't elicit a hearty guffaw.. at least Muslims don't call a messenger of God the son of a harlot!

p.s just out of amusement.. why are sacrifices so important? is god hungry, is he some sort of harvest god that needs offerings from the blood of virgins?

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I agree there is no evidence for that claim by Hindus. It's just a fairy tale like the fairy tale Jesus did not die on the cross so you can exalt in self-works to think you can save yourself. That's illogical to believe that six centuries later without any evidence.

You claim to accept the Bible yet you don't understand the purpose of the sacrifices in ancient Israel under the old covenant that foretold of the Messiah who would become the once-for-all sacrifice so sacrifices would end. It was a temporary measure back then under the law to atone for sins. No man could keep the law, thus revealing to us we need a Savior.

Your god is not loving. He is too selfish or unable to enter creation to atone for sins. Your god can't do what God of the Bible did.

Realize you are a sinner, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, so unless God takes upon Himself in a very visible way and becomes sin for us, then you will be full of doubt.

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

Of course the Christians of today do not follow the gospels of Thomas, Peter or Barnabas. Christianity had already ceased to follow what Jesus(as) taught long before they were written. Christianity vanished from this earth the moment the disciples scattered. Possibly the closest remnant of Christianity are the Coptic of Egypt. They seem to follow the Gospel of Mark in what may actually be the original Aramaic. But sadly even they finally succumbed to pressure from Greece and Rome by adding the Epistles and books of Paul to their scriptures.

At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.

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Since those gnostic texts disagreed with the Biblical texts then Christians didn't follow those gnostic texts. They come centuries later after the gospels. Christians believe exactly what the original disciples taught in the first century as is recorded in the Bible.

That the Bible reporting the disciples scattered speaks of the authenticity of the Scriptures, but when they saw Jesus alive from the dead they changed from doubters to bold proclaimers. Jesus predicted the disciples would deny Him temporarily out of lack of faithfulness. This is part of Christianity so Christianity never changed.

The Coptics do not agree with the Scriptures. Nothing in the Bible including Mark agree with their teachings. You can find their heresies here: http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/heresies.stm

Paul, Peter, James and John were in complete agreement. Notice all of Paul's writings are included too. Peter, James and John agreed with Paul and spoke highly of him.

I am here talking about this because I don't want you to go to Hell, so I encourage you to realize you have no evidence for claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. Can you be so humble as to accept that if you don't have evidence for something you shouldn't believe in it blindly? God would never ask you to.

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Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

You can't prove the dying mangod nonsense anymore than ganesh's head nonsense.. further did you not read bro. Yusuf's post? I recommend you some Bart eherman lectures-- you don't even know on what day he was allegedly crucified let alone that it happened!

I don't accept the bible who said I do? show me where I have made such a claim. The above doesn't explain why god needs sacrifices.. I need a logical reason for it not some biblical nonsense. Your bible also has god fighting with angels or prophets or whomever and losing.. although it is certainly not as bad as self-immolating after a night of self-prayer.. If god couldn't save himself, why would he save you? silly rabbit tricks are for david copperfield! How is my god not loving? further how can your loving god create hell if he were as loving as you allege? You're too funny.. why don't you strike a tent and sell some snake oil I think it might buy you some credibility!

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You don't even have to prove Jesus is God to prove Islam is wrong. All you need to do is realize six centuries later a guy in a cave all by himself who refused to give his life to Christ decided to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD (Gregorian) on Friday. Danie's prophecy predicted exactly to the day when the 4 day inspection of the Lamb would take place.

From the declaration to rebuild the Temple on Nisan 1, 444 BC to when Jesus would enter Jerusalem is exactly 69 sets of seven years at 360 days per year. That comes to 173,880 days which takes us to exactly March 28, 33 AD. The 4 day inspection is March 28, 29, 30, 31. It's an amazing prophecy! Satan has since given a name to this day called April Fool's Day. Satan loves to mock Jesus even though Satan has received a deadly wound by the cross, because those who have died with Christ their old man has died (we posses new life) so Satan doesn't have any flesh to work through. And Satan's accusations are powerless, because God says our sins are forgiven in Christ.

Yes, God contends against the fallen angels. He even lets Satan out of the pit after the 1000 years to show three things: 1) man still yet had some hidden sin, 2) Satan will never repent, 3) God's good pleasure.

God is loving because He enters His creation, something your god doesn't do and can't. Allah is just an idol anyway since the Bible says there are no gods before God, beside God or after God. God creates Hell for you because free will is not truly free if you don't have the choice to be eternally separated from Him. Islam, I agree, is snake oil.

Just as the OT taught us a perfect sacrifice is essential for atonement, Jesus must be the perfect sacrifice once-for-all. There can be no better sacrifice than God enter His creation through the womb of Mary, growing up as a child, feeling our heartaches and struggling with us, only to then be killed by those who rejected God's authority as people today are killed mercilessly. I hear there are even other cults besides Islam that claim Jesus didn't die on the cross and like all cults they don't need evidence for their claim either.

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

It took me 65 years to escape from the lies of Christianity and by the Blessings of Allaah(swt) discover Islam.

The day you wake up and discover you are living a man made religion that lowered Allaah(swt) to the level of humanity, you will see the misguidance brought about by Christianity. Not all christians need to be lost many Christians have awoken and found the truth of Islam even after 65 years of trying to bring Muslims to Christ(as). At least you are approaching the right path even though you have yet to discover Allaah(swt) is inviting you to give up your sinful teachings and return home to Islam and be given the gift of Allaah(swt)'s infinite mercy and forgiveness. You can not earn his forgiveness, no sacrifice can ever gain it for you. but Allaah(swt) gives it freely and with out conditions to those who repent of the evil blasphemy of worshiping a false god in His name.

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You fell into the age old trap of salvation by works because with salvation by works is the possibility of losing salvation if you don't maintain your self-strength to be faithful. No man can save himself by works, lest any man should boast. All religions teach this except Christianity, because no man can save himself, for God is infinite greater than us and only He can satistfy the requirement for salvation through His only begotten Son whosoever believe on Him. Realize you were actually in reality never born-again because the Bible teaches those who were saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You have perished.

The day you realize you are living in a man made religion is the day you come closer to Christ to possibly be saved. Many Muslims come to Christ every day. They consider Islam evil, for example, what happened in Egypt recently killing 30 Christians and wounding 70 more as they were coming out of the Church. When Muhammad didn't have the upper hand in a country he was fairly peaceful, but as soon as he gained control, he was a murderous tyrant. Would Jesus do that?

You can keep calling the disciples liars when they said they had seen Jesus alive from thead dead, but realize people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. They truly believed it. but group hallucinations are impossible. Almost all scholars today on the resurrection claim agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

There is no grand conspiracy by the historian Tacitus or Josephus that Jesus died on the cross. He really died on the cross, put to death by Pontius Pilate.

You're a sinner, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, so unless God in the likeness of flesh atones for those sins, no man could be saved. Just like there is no evidence for the Greek gods there is no evidence for Allah. You must believe him blindly, whereas Christians have a God who proved Himself and relating to us personally. Praise the Lord!


God is relational, not an absentee landlord like in Islam. He becomes one of us so we could be like Him and have eternal life. Amen.

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Originally Posted by MustafaMc

...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.

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We have at least 14 papyri from the 2nd century and read we have at least 27 verses in 12 books of the New Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls carbon dated before 65 AD.

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

So out of 12 Apostles and numerous disciples only 4 eye witness accounts were worthy of being kept, those of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. The 4 that seem to be reiterations of the same thing the same of which happened to have been written in Greek by Aramaic speaking Jews. the same of which not even the best Christian theologians can agree upon who the actual authors were. The same books that coincidentally have a very strong resemblance to the Greek and Roman mythology of the time.

Give up your life of blasphemy and the spreading of falsehoods. Read even one short Surah of the Glorious Qur'an:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

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I am farily certain not all the disciples could read and write, and the Bible is a fairly big book already. 4 gospel accounts is more than enough. One emphasizes Jesus as king, another as servant, another as man and another as God. Most scholars can't think of anyone other than Matthew, Luke, Mark and John to write these texts. In fact, many clues regarding their employment indicating their writing style. For example Matthew writes regally. He was a tax collector, an accountant. Mark was simple and had a bout with Paul over Mark's fickleness. Luke was a very careful writer. He was a doctor. He also wrote Acts. And Jesus said John was the disciple whom He loved most. John emphasized Jesus' deity and love. There is no Greek mythology of someone walking among us, atoning for sins, who called Himself God and resurrected and gave the Holy Spirit to indwell believers. Truly unique.

At best Allah is just an idol. At worst, he is Satan.

Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (John 10.9).

You can't enter into another man unless that person is also fully God. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Praise the Lord!

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

The day I gave up Christianity and my years of Missionary work did I finally find the true path to salvation. I have to pay a horrible price with my feelings of guilt over those I led to hellfire by converting them to Christianity. I once believed as you now do. I hope you escape before you suffer the guilt and pains of leading the innocent into the trap of Christianity.

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Realize you were never actually born-again because the Bible teaches those who are saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). We whom are saved entered into a relationship with God promises to keep us. That gives us confidence and assuredness. You don't have this in your faith because it is a salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved.

You were a fake or nominal Christian, not real so you never really left Christianity to begin with because you never were a Christian. I once believed as you do now that salvation was not through Jesus, but by the grace of God, His mercy and love came over me. God says if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. I can never leave my life in Christ, but you can yet one day give your life to Christ because the Bible says no man has committed blaspheming of the Holy Spirit while Jesus is not on earth. Now that is gracious God!

God loves you. He would never ask you to believe in something some man in a cave all by himself said without any evidence after he rejected Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Don't give into Satan. Revisionist story telling will simply not due six centuries later.

God provides real proof. 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 books in complete agreement. He shows that most scholars agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation. Jesus really died on the cross which we have tonnes of evidence for, but no evidence otherwise or for your god just like we have no evidence for the Greek gods. They are just idols.

It is evil of you to ask people to believe blindly in your cult when you have no evidence and to lie about Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Woodrow

You do know the dead sea scrolls were written by Essenes, not Christians and do support Islam more than they support Christianity. You have no books from the early sources you only have copies of books which the Vatican Library will allow you access to.

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The Essenes were a Jewish cult. The Jews agree more with Islam than Christianity since you both reject Christ. The point is the Scriptures that were circulating shows at least 12 books of the New Testament were circulating before 65 AD.

All the New Testament is from the original sources. The Qu'ran was changed so many times it would make your head spin, even on major doctrinal points, but none of the major doctrinal points in the Bible have been changed. There is nothing in antiquity with surviving documents so closely to their events as is the case for the Bible.

More copies the better to preserve integrity and compare.

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Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

You sure you do.. that is what you're selling.. and you're not doing a good pitch at the sale.. to be honest I'd not purchase from street vendors anyway.. if I weren't pressed for time and other interests I'd have more fun with you..

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No we don't have to prove Jesus was resurrected to prove Islam is false. All we need to do to prove Islam is false is to show Jesus died on the cross because Islam says he didn't. I can sell you on Christ later, but right now it is enough to prove Islam is false because all the evidence we have is for Jesus dying on the cross, and no evidience to the contrary, so don't believe some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later. God would never ask you to believe blindly like that out of his hostility because he rejected Jesus for his salvation.

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Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.

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Since all the books of the New Testament were completed before 65 AD except for John in 95 AD, who cares about all these other books or even what the Constantine church compiled. It makes no difference because the early texts were already established as primary sources and the first churches were being set up based on the death and resurrection of Jesus.

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Originally Posted by Tyrion

Lol, dude... Learn a bit about the religion before you come here and try to convert people. You're just making yourself look like a fool...

Oh, and you really shouldn't expect us to sit back and let you spew this nonsense... Most Muslims are fairly familiar with Christianity and it's texts, as well as being familiar with their own history and texts, so they can very easily take apart whatever you have to say... You, however, don't seem to have even a basic knowledge of Islam, so... Good luck.

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I am a fool for Christ. I am a fool for evidence. Since there is no evidence in the first two centuries that Jesus didn't die on the cross but lots of evidence for his crucifixion, realize you are a living lie.

It is sad to hear those who claim they are familiar with the text, and thus the evidence, yet still remain unsaved, bound for hell for calling the disciples deceived and Jesus a liar when he said countless times in various ways He was God and would prove it by His resurrection.

The disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, for which you can find a no naturalistic explanation. This is God's proof of Himself.

There is really only one thing you need to know about Islam to know it is wrong. If it says Jesus didn't die on the cross you know Muhammad was a liar or demonically possessed.