Deists are Shallow and Horrible Misreaders

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02-21-2011, 01:29 AM
Composer

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Deists are Shallow and Horrible Misreaders

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

The Earth could not accomplish a global flood a couple thousand years ago. The global flood took place in Gen. 1.2 due to sin of Earth's earliest ages

If it wasn't possible for the earth to accomplish a Global Flood then how come you then say it did according to Gen1:2?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

by fallen Lucifer, fallen angels and corrupted creatures which we now know to be disembodied spirits that were cast into the deep (demons).

Nowhere in the bible story book is the alleged naughty fallen spirit angel Satan also called Lucifer!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

The flood in Noah's day was a local flood. Scientifically speaking, this is the only possibility, which agrees with the Word.

. . . . neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Gen. 9:11) KJV story book

That statement would be false if it applied strictly to a Local Flood, for there have and still are many Local Floods, but never another Global one like the Original story book one.

Spelling it out we have the two scenarios -

For a Local affair - . . . . neither shall there any more be a Local flood to destroy the earth.

Many have occurred and still do.

For a Global affair - . . . . neither shall there any more be a Global flood to destroy the earth.

None have occurred since the original story book one.

The story book (Gen. 9:11) actually refutes you and only agrees with a Global Flood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Man lives not as long as he once did because of sin and sin alone, not environment, and not due to type of food.

This is what the Bible reveals. Science so far agrees with this conclusion.

Apart from this bible story book, what actual legitimate evidence do you think you have to demonstrate that man in general lived far longer than they do now?

Thank you

Attachment 174
02-21-2011, 04:43 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

If it wasn't possible for the earth to accomplish a Global Flood then how come you then say it did according to Gen1:2?

Gen. 1.2 occurred 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs.

Quote:

Nowhere in the bible story book is the alleged naughty fallen spirit angel Satan also called Lucifer!

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" (Is. 14.12). There is only one other being Satan who is described the same way. Thus Satan is Lucifer.

Quote:

. . . . neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. (Gen. 9:11) KJV story book

Your story book revisionism misreads, for the local flood didn't destroy the whole earth as did in Gen. 1.2. Since then there have been many local floods of the known world of their inhabitants though not as a great as occurred in Noah's day that we are aware of.

Quote:

Apart from this bible story book, what actual legitimate evidence do you think you have to demonstrate that man in general lived far longer than they do now?

The evidence I have is people we know scientifically were 6 inches tall prior to about 10,000 BC when they began to harvest wheat fields, and six inches taller before the industrial revolution due the toxic environment. I also know scientifically, a life full of sin will cause you to live not as long. This was even greater so when initially the first God-conscious man was without sin who brought sin into the world and the initial recipients of bearing the sin of their forefathers, that is tendency to sin, had not permeated the flesh, hence man was not called fleshly until Noah's day.

My personal view and I think I am right is these large ages are in fact a composite of several individuals of which the most prominent individual is mentioned in the time line. Even so people lived longer back then at lest in the first few generations since Adam because sin had yet to really work out its complicated and contorted effect on people as sin beget sin.
02-22-2011, 01:06 AM
Composer

1 Attachment(s)

To Churchwork;1989

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Gen. 1.2 occurred 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs.

Gen 1:2 is a story book hearsay statement. The rest of your claim is guesswork!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Originally quoted - The Earth could not accomplish a global flood a couple thousand years ago.

You have no legitimate evidence to sustain that claim other than guesswork!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" (Is. 14.12).

3. See James Hastings (ed.), Dictionary of the Bible, (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1963), p. 936. The Amplified Old Testament, (Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1962), comments in a footnote to Isaiah 14 as follows: ". . . the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is completely erroneous. . . . Nowhere in the Bible is Satan called Lucifer. The misapplication of the name has existed since the third century A.D., and is based on the false supposition that Luke 10:18 is an explanation of Isaiah 14:12 . . . It is the satanic king himself who is being addressed." p. 503. The J.W.'s, for example, have recognized the force of these arguments and now no longer in their official publications refer to Satan as "Lucifer", nor is Isaiah 14 cited in support of their belief that Satan is a fallen angel. (Extract taken from: Wrested Scriptures by Ron Abel)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

There is only one other being Satan who is described the same way

i) I have two bible story book versions that make NO reference to a Satan in the text (i.e. EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT & YLT). So according to them there isn't a Satan!

ii) The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

Composer's Source: http://lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Thus Satan is Lucifer.

Ok, then according to you, your jesus = your Satan!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

The evidence I have is people we know scientifically were 6 inches tall prior to about 10,000 BC.

6 inches tall you say?

Let's examine your evidence?

Better luck next time!

Attachment 175
02-22-2011, 01:17 AM
Churchwork

Composer,

Gen. 1.2 says God made the earth desolate and waste. We know this scientifically and historically as a fact about 65 million years ago.

There is no evidence of a global flood a few thousand years ago and Noah's flood wasn't global, so you are misreading God's word and history.

If you don't like the name Lucifer that's alright, simply realize that the archangel that fell whether his name was actually Lucifer or not, we ascribe to him this name Lucifer as being sinless before his fall to become what we know as the dragon or Satan.

Satan use to be the most beautiful angel so it makes sense to ascribe to him such names. And Jesus is of course God the Son so His name is likewise given the highest and brightest reference point. But that is where their similarities end.

Not sure why you would disagree with the fact sin does cause people to not live as long or be shorter, e.g. Industrial Revolution.
02-22-2011, 01:25 AM
Composer

To Churchwork;1989

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

This was even greater so when initially the first God-conscious man was without sin who brought sin into the world

Man did NOT bring death upon himself through sin and story book Romans 6:23 is an easily proven story book god telling another of its lies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

and the initial recipients of bearing the sin of their forefathers, that is tendency to sin, had not permeated the flesh, hence man was not called fleshly until Noah's day.

You are incorrect again!

. . . . . The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, . . . . (Ezekiel 18:20) KJV story book

. . . . A son will not suffer27 for his father’s iniquity, . . . . (Ezekiel 18:20) NET story book
02-22-2011, 01:38 AM
Churchwork

I know this is hard for you to understand because you are in your flesh lost in your old man selfishly unwilling to allow yourself to die on the cross with Christ, but realize since people today say they have a sense of God and believe God exists, logically speaking, it stands to reason there was a first person who said this - Adam.

Reconcile these passages by realizing that though we suffer genetically from our forefathers, we are not blamed for it.

You're not too bright are you?
02-22-2011, 01:56 AM
Composer

To Churchwork;1989

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Gen. 1.2 says God made the earth desolate and waste.

Gen 1:2 is a man made speculative quote extracted from the man made story book bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

We know this scientifically and historically as a fact about 65 million years ago.

Guesswork at best, ok!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

There is no evidence of a global flood a few thousand years ago and Noah's flood wasn't global, so you are misreading God's word and history.

Noah's Flood is a story book tale! The entire bible is the words of men and the legitimate evidence it is the words of a god given to men remains a constant zero, hence your claim any of it is a ' god's word ' is empty speculation and biased propaganda!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

If you don't like the name Lucifer that's alright, simply realize that the archangel that fell whether his name was actually Lucifer or not, we ascribe to him this name Lucifer as being sinless before his fall to become what we know as the dragon or Satan.

1. For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV story book

2. ALL spirit angels never die (Luke 20:36) KJV story book (Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . . .)

If you can never die, then you can never sin!

If some "think / claim" that there are a total of TWO classes consisting of - 1. heavenly and 2. ex-heavenly angels, and therefore some (i.e. class 2.) are somehow NOT this bible story book god's angels any longer, then please provide evidence to substantiate that claim. For clearly ALL things belong to story book god at ALL times, without exception - E. g. - Proof: -

The great [God] that formed all [ things ] . . . (Prov. 26:10) KJV story book

I [am] the LORD that maketh all [ things ]; . . . (Isaiah 44:24) KJV story book

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1: 3) KJV story book

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him , and for him : (Col. 1:16) KJV story book

Result: No Satan spirit being, No devil spirit being / No fallen heavenly angels / No literal spirit demons etc. etc.

QED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Satan use to be the most beautiful angel so it makes sense to ascribe to him such names. And Jesus is of course God the Son so His name is likewise given the highest and brightest reference point. But that is where their similarities end.

Satan is NOT a proper name!

The evidence that the story book character jesus is literally anything more than a story book character remains a constant zero!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Not sure why you would disagree with the fact sin does cause people to not live as long or be shorter, e.g. Industrial Revolution.

Sin is fundamentally nothing more than a man made - bible story book concept!
02-22-2011, 02:24 AM
Churchwork

Genesis 1.2 agrees with what happened 65 million years ago. Scientists are in agreement about this.

There are great floods over the planet throughout the millennia. There was one around the Mediterranean and Black Sea area in Noah's day. They've found over 100 sunken cities in the region.

When 1/3 of the angels fell they didn't die, for angels don't die because they are not in the flesh. Demons though were in the flesh and did die, for they went down to the abyss, the deep or the pit to await their day of judgment for Hell. They became disembodied spirits and the reason why day 2 was not called a good day like the other days is because when the firmament was split in the restoration after the desolation, unavoidably up came some of those demons that try to possess us today. One went into the serpent to tempt Eve.

"All things were made by Him" - principalities, powers and angels too.

If sin is man made then we would have no need for jails.

You don't need to worry about the whole Bible, just treat it like any other historical document to glean what facts historians do.

One of those facts is that they are virtually unanimous that the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. Since no naturalistic explanation can account for this such as group hallucinations and all possibilities have been exhausted and this is relatively simple (not rocket science) to figure out, thus we know Jesus raised Himself from the dead just as He said He would to prove He is God.

QED
02-22-2011, 04:42 AM
Composer

To Churchwork;1989

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Genesis 1.2 agrees with what happened 65 million years ago. Scientists are in agreement about this.

Scientists usually don't always agree on anything, so let's start by first examining any legitimate evidence that ALL scientists (bible believers and non-bible believers) agree there was a Global / Local Flood during this bible story book Noah's time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

When 1/3 of the angels fell they didn't die,

Again proving your alleged trinitarian god a liar for claiming -

For the wages of sin [is] death; . . . (Rom. 6:23) KJV story book

IF your alleged naughty angels ' fell / sinned / disobeyed ' then their wages would be death!

You claiming they didn't die as your alleged trinitarian god promised, makes it a liar and you duped!

QED

Better luck next time!
02-22-2011, 05:11 AM
Churchwork

Romans 6.23 was speaking about humans not angels and the gift of salvation by the cross is not offered to angels since it atones only for sins in the flesh.

The 1/3 angels that fell were cast out 3rd heaven to 2nd heaven. The Bible says there is death and the second death which is Hell. The second death is where 1/3 of the angels will be sent to. And the demon spirits that went into the abyss which is the place of death will also be sent to the second death where you are going.

"The lake of fire...this is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20.13-15), consciously aware of your wrong choice for forever.

65 million years ago dinosaurs did get wiped out (Gen. 1.2); this is how the Bible can talk about the Leviathan and Behemoth since they discovered such fossil remains back then also. The flood was global in Gen. 1.2 because it wiped out all dinosaurs. But Noah's day was local just his known world. He had no knowledge of South America, for example.

You're not too bright are you?

QED

You ARE going to Hell with the fallen angels and demons and other unregenerates. You're too old to have a change of heart now and long since decided what you want which is to be eternally separated from your Creator. How sad for you.
02-22-2011, 11:29 PM
Composer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Romans 6.23 was speaking about humans not angels

I have been given 2 infraction penalty points by you so far for daring to correct you and typically as here you accuse me without legitimate evidence for one penalty, and for the other penalty you say I wandered in to a forbidden area that non-believers may not venture. I had no idea I was restricted to certain areas but by your feeble response to me here I assume I am permitted to post in this area. I am awaiting confirmation of what areas you say I am not allowed to respond?

Now back to your incorrect answer regarding Romans 6:23.

. . . . For the payoff of sin is death, . . . . (Rom. 6:23) NET story book

Could you point out for us readers where (apart from your imagination) it states this specifically does not refer to ALL who sin or disobey?
02-22-2011, 11:55 PM
Churchwork

You got an infraction for posting in Christian forum sections since obviously you are not a Christian and for repeatedly avoiding the explanation, however much you don't like it. I know this because I had to repeat myself that which you avoided as the answer. The board etiquette (read it!) of the forums says don't post in the Christian forum categories which are obvious: "Deeper Christian Life" and "Redemptive Design". I would rather not post as part of the header to these 2 forum categories by saying "Christians Only" or "Christians and Non-Christians" for the "Welcome!" section, since I don't want to have to treat you like a baby.

Again, I am repeating myself and you are repeating yourself avoiding the answer given. Since Rom. 6.23 is speaking to humans only and because only humans are in the flesh, then it stands to reason the wages of sin is physical death and of course, even the fallen angels receive along with other unregenerates such as yourself the second death which is Hell. Alas, I am repeating myself, and you keep avoiding the answer, and are well deserving of another infraction for the same belligerency and evasiveness.

Whether physical flesh or second death which is Hell the result is the same - second death for those who are unsaved such as yourself. When a person sins they don't automatically die in the flesh, but they die sooner than they would have otherwise all else being equal.
02-24-2011, 12:37 AM
everstill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Composer

1. The legitimate evidence any so called ' holy book ' is the words of a god given to man, remains a constant zero!

2. A trinitarian) The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)

Or more recently:

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)

27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180
28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980

&

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. Paul must be understood within his Jewish contexts. (p. 160)

In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the “Word” as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well—the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. “When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine ‘person’ in the later Trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus had transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the ‘power’ and ‘wisdom’ that he represented were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed ‘what there was from the beginning.’”35

The Jews were absolute monotheists. So was Paul. The Jewish Messiah is not a divine figure. The Messiah would be an ordinary human being that would do privileged “God-things.” The Son of God was a simple way to express the closeness of the Messiah’s actions to the will and power of God. Only the gods of the pagans had “sons” or offspring. “It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus ‘God.’ He called him the ‘Son of God’ in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed God’s ‘powers’ and ‘spirit,’ which manifested God’s activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.”36

Also it needs to be kept in mind, although I mentioned it earlier, Jesus never claimed that his divine powers were his alone or special to him. On many occasions he promised his followers that if they had faith they could exercise these same powers. “By faith, of course, he did not mean adopting the correct theology but cultivating an inner attitude of surrender and openness to God.”37 . . . . (p. 161)

35 Armstrong, History of God, p. 89.
36 Armstrong, History of God, p. 83.
37 Armstrong, History of God, p. 82.

. . . . That’s why Jesus could say repeatedly, “Greater things than I do will you do.” (p. 162) - (Composer adds: John 14:12 KJV)

(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2.13).

"This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to all of you who share the same precious faith we have, faith given to us by Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, who makes us right with God" (2 Pet. 1.1).

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him" (Col. 1.16).

When Paul prayed, he prayed to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit showing the Trinitarian actions of the Godhead.