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Why does the God of the Bible trump the god of gnosticism?
Compare God of the Bible who does not leave His creation unattended, for that would be unrighteous, unholy and evil. But the god of deism says he left his creation unattended. The righteousness of the God of the Bible trumps the god of gnosticism for a righteous God would not let an evil god to create us.
The Demiurge (that's the "evil" god you are referring to) is often cast as acting out of incompetence and arrogance in Gnosticism, rather than pure malice. To say that the Gnostic God--Sophia, for short--let an evil god create mankind is also besides the point. Gnostics believe that matter is fundamentally evil and encompasses only suffering, so it was not Sophia's intention that mankind would be created in the first place.
Incompetence, arrogance, malice makes no difference when it comes to the god of gnosticism. They are all unruly. It is an evil idea, not unlike scientology who says we were created by evil aliens.
It is not beside the point if there is an evil creator of gnosticism, for with such a sinful assumption of an evil creator, you have no recourse, and your only legitimate option is to continue in that evil in keeping with your creator. Your false ideas lead to false consequences. There is a cause and effect in all things.
Whereas God has His redemptive design and makes some men and women children of God who receive His only begotten Son. Nothing is better. We will spend an eternity with God in the new city and new earth. I can't wait. I have a foretaste of it even now in my resurrected life.
To assume matter is nothing but evil is the evil spirit's suggestion implanted in your mind, but with a little observation it is totally unfounded. Walk down to your nearest park and observe the pond or the river and how beautiful it is. This is not evil. Nor is giving birth evil. It is a wonderful glorious moment. I experience no suffering in saying these words.
The Sophie gnostic god says it is better God never created, but God says His creation was made perfect. Though Satan and man sinfully corrupted nature, God can restore it. That is exactly what He is doing in His redemptive design. It's awesome!
If what you are saying were true, how come humans are not perfect? God is perfect, and He created us (you claim), so I don't see why you keep on asserting that there is sin in the world.Quote:
It is not beside the point if there is an evil creator of gnosticism, for with such a sinful assumption of an evil creator, you have no recourse, and your only legitimate option is to continue in that evil in keeping with your creator.
I am not saying matter's evil -- Gnostics are. Or maybe not evil as such, but a prison that keeps mankind away from joining Sophia yet again. Also, what is evil and what is good is relative to person and culture; some might say that the world is a bad place, whereas others think it's a glorious place.Quote:
To assume matter is nothing but evil is the evil spirit's suggestion implanted in your mind, but with a little observation it is totally unfounded. Walk down to your nearest park and observe the pond or the river and how beautiful it is. This is not evil. Nor is giving birth evil. It is a wonderful glorious moment. I experience no suffering in saying these words.
Humans are perfectly made in God's image. Thus, we have free-will to have the free-choice to receive God's redemption. We are all born into sin because of the sin of one man.
Never blame God for sin, an outcropping of disobedience. Sin exhibits free-will; if we all chose rightly we very well may just be robots, and that could never glorify God. He can certainly do better than that by giving us not only self-consciousness, but God-consciousness as sovereign free-willed beings He can walk with and partake with in fellowship and communicate by our worship and prayer and His mercy and grace.
To blame God for anything is the beginning of all corruption and self-exaltation in disobedience and hostility to your Creator.
Sophie is the gnostic god, so Sophie is evil, since you say gnostics are evil. It is evil to want to be in prison, reflecting a negative attitude. Satan wants you to join himself as Sophie. God wants you to be in the new city and new earth as a child of God, and He would never leave unattended His creation. He would never allow an evil god to create you for then you would not be created in His image. When God gives you a conscience it is in His image, not the image of the Devil, for that is pointless and sick and twisted. Just check you have no evidence for your deism and gnosticism and that is what matters. Why then do people believe such nonsense? It is because they are expressing their disobedience to God, that is all. The way to express independency from God is by concocted strange ideas that separate you from Him.
There are some common traits that are evil. If you murder someone, that is evil. This is agreed upon by all nations. The world has much evil in it, because the god of this world is Satan, but Jesus will return. You can count on it. By saying Satan is the god of this world, we are not saying he created it, but that he is in control of it, but Jesus will return to fix it and put the Devil into the pit for 1000 years, before sending him off to hell.
"On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives" (Zech. 14.4).
"This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1.11)
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Rev. 1.7)
Even those who pierced which includes all who reject Him. He said if you are not for Him, you are against Him. There is no in between. The choice is clear. Are you for Christ or are you antichrist?
Bing. You sort of got it. Free will is why humans do not necessarily have to be evil or incompetent, even if created (as the Gnostics think) by an evil or incompetent God. You said: "... for with such a sinful assumption of an evil creator ... and your only legitimate option is to continue in that evil in keeping with your creator." And yet, here you say that free will exists. So why would the only legitimate option be to continue in the evil venue of an evil creator?Quote:
Humans are perfectly made in God's image. Thus, we have free-will to have the free-choice to receive God's redemption. We are all born into sin because of the sin of one man.
I have never said Gnostics are evil. Nor is Sophia evil. The evil god of Gnosticism is the Demiurge, which is the offspring of Sophia.Quote:
Sophie is the gnostic god, so Sophie is evil, since you say gnostics are evil.
Gnostics do not want to be in prison. They want to get out of it.Quote:
It is evil to want to be in prison, reflecting a negative attitude. Satan wants you to join himself as Sophie.
This attitude is quite scary.Quote:
He said if you are not for Him, you are against Him. There is no in between. The choice is clear.
Don't get me wrong. Everyone is a sinner, but we still have free-will to be drawn by God and receive what Jesus did for us on the cross to atone for our sins.
An evil creator creates evil, so its nature produced only knows how to be evil and does not even have the choice, because evil can't create sentient beings. You have to understand that an evil creator can't give free-will to a species of beings, because only that which is uncreated has that power. An evil creator can only make evil robots. Gnostics would be wrong in thinking an evil creator can have its creation not be evil, because the creation is trapped in the evil construct and can't escape it. Whereas God's creation is good and if God shows mercy, mankind can escape the penalty of sin.
God does not create evil offspring, so Sophia is evil for creating evil gods.
The mistaken assumption is that gnostics want out of the evil construct they surmise. In actuality they don't want out of the evil, that is why they are gnostics for believing in the false assumption to reject God's design and the atonement of Christ. It's all about Jesus.
The attitude is quite scary that we are all sinners and even though God entered into His creation to die on the cross for our sins, man still rejects Him. If you are not for Him, then you are in fact against Him. I'm scared for you, for I would not wish my worse enemy to go to hell where you are going.
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An evil creator creates evil, so its nature produced only knows how to be evil and does not even have the choice, because evil can't create sentient beings.
These are mere assertions anyway. As a matter of fact, Gnostics do not think that their souls were created by the Demiurge, only that their bodies were.Quote:
You have to understand that an evil creator can't give free-will to a species of beings, because only that which is uncreated has that power. An evil creator can only make evil robots.
God can, according to you, create beings which act evil without Him being evil; you said, after all, that we should "never blame God for sin." Doesn't the same go for Sophia? I mean, is it okay to blame it for the evil and incompetence of the Demiurge?Quote:
God does not create evil offspring, so Sophia is evil for creating evil gods.
Oh, yes, and that is a non-sequitur, by the way. "God does not create evil offspring" does not imply that "Sophia is evil for creating evil gods."
I bet most Gnostics would be surprised to learn this.Quote:
In actuality they don't want out of the evil, that is why they are gnostics for believing in the false assumption to reject God's design and the atonement of Christ.
It is a scary attitude because it is one that starts wars and authors conflicts.Quote:
The attitude is quite scary
It doesn't matter whether body, soul or spirit, for a loving God does not give man an evil component. He provides him with a perfect working condition to start in the first Adamic man. Only that which is eternally existing can give self-consciousness and God-consciousness. Only that which has always had free-will can give free-will. All else has not that power, just like man will never be able to figure out how to create the first single celled organism. There are some things you will never figure out, because it is beyond your ability to even understand the how. This takes humility. Realize all you are doing is trying to usurp yourself above your true Creator. It's funny and yet at the same time, pathetic and saddening for you.
God is not the originator of evil. He gives people the choice for they are made in His image to have the choice. Sophia created evil directly. God never does. Sophia is the evil personage, but Sophia never fell from grace but would be created evil. Therein lies your contradiction. Moreover, nobody can create evil beings, for all beings are created good. God creates in His image. It is against God's good nature to create evil.
Most sinners are not really surprised to hear they are sinners, they just don't want to hear as they go out sinning. Like gnostics are preferring to remain in a lie, because of their willingness to remain separated from God and salvation. They don't want to hear about it but continue in that sin.
Jesus never started wars, so what is scary is to accuse Him and the Apostles and the true Church through history of crimes committed by the unsaved.
I think I will give you an infraction for accusing Jesus of starting wars, since you just self-declared it without anything to support your idea. For me it becomes a boring conversation to hear people mindlessly self-declare stuff they can't back up, nor try to.
My advice: don't be a dullard!
No, it created the Demiurge just like the Christian God created man. It is not accountable for the actions of its creation.Quote:
Sophia created evil directly.
This statement directly contradicts what you've been saying about Sophia creating evil.Quote:
Moreover, nobody can create evil beings, for all beings are created good.
Oh for the love of goodness ... I said that Jesus' black and white attitude is the kind of attitude that starts wars, not that Jesus himself walked around and incited conflict.Quote:
Jesus never started wars, so what is scary is to accuse Him and the Apostles and the true Church through history of crimes committed by the unsaved.
The Demiurge is evil in the gnostic world as gnostics believe this creator is evil who was given this right to create by the ultimate Creator. It is assumed Sophia created the evil Demiurge; I didn't say it was true, but that it can't be true, since God does not create evil.
The uncreated Creator is the only one who can create sentient beings. And man who is created is not evil. Moreover, the ethereal beings you cite are unsubstantiated, but Jesus walked the earth.
Things are very specific in God's design, which you call black and white while you live in greyness and vagaries. They say the devil is in the details, but he is also in vagaries and lack of clarity. That is when his deceptions arise.
The Demiurge was never given any right to create anything. He (for it is the God of the Old Testament) acted out of arrogance and. Sophia did not give Him the right to do whatever He wanted.Quote:
The Demiurge is evil in the gnostic world as gnostics believe this creator is evil who was given this right to create by the ultimate Creator.
Yes, but by your logic, I can say God created Hitler. Sophia might have created the Demiurge, but the Demiurge acted on its own accord, and thus did evil. Sophia did not create an evil being; it created a being that did evil because it had free will and chose to do so.Quote:
It is assumed Sophia created the evil Demiurge; I didn't say it was true, but that it can't be true, since God does not create evil.
So did founders of many religions: Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius, et cetera.Quote:
And man who is created is not evil. Moreover, the ethereal beings you cite are unsubstantiated, but Jesus walked the earth.
And this makes God very dangerous as a person. A political system that cares not for the scales of grey between the white and black ends is one akin to Soviet Russia. If people didn't love communism, they hated their countries and wished for US-style capitalism, or so the leaders of the Soviet Union reasoned. Likewise, if someone doesn't like Jesus, he is immediately seen as an affront to all that is good. That is a dangerous attitude, for it incites wars.Quote:
Things are very specific in God's design, which you call black and white while you live in greyness and vagaries.
Sophia 'birthed' the Demiurge, but the Demiurge acted on its own accord and was never given any right to create anything. I have said this so many times, and yet you ignore it.Quote:
The Demiurge is evil in the gnostic world as gnostics believe this creator is evil who was given this right to create by the ultimate Creator.
Gnostics would agree.Quote:
The uncreated Creator is the only one who can create sentient beings.
Nor is the Demiurge. He is mistaken, incompetent and arrogant, but not evil.Quote:
And man who is created is not evil.
You make God sound like some dictator in the vein of Stalin. Either you're with him or you're against him is not really that different from either you're a communist or you're an enemy to the state.Quote:
Things are very specific in God's design, which you call black and white while you live in greyness and vagaries.
God of the OT (same as the NT) is not gnostic, so He is not the Demiurge you speak of. There is no arrogance in the Triune God at all. He is righteous, holy and faithful. In gnosticism the creator of the universe and people is evil, but God of the Bible, who is loving would not cause people such heartache to know they were created evilly and He would never create a being who could then create evilly. Man is not evil; man was made perfect without any evil in him whatsoever. Your Demiurge is evil whether he was made that way or chose to be that way; just like Satan is evil through and through and will never repent.
None of these ever claimed to be the uncreated creator: Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius. Only Jesus did. He is unique.
There is a definite improvement of democracies over communism. There is no gray area about this. Just like there is no gray area about Jesus who died on the cross for your sins. Either He did it or He didn't do it. He did it! Satan loves the gray area to create confusion (Satan is the author of confusion) and ecumenicalism and contradicts himself all the time, like you do. How could such an intelligent being be so dumb? It's a free-country. Don't blame God's precision work and excellence bar none for the evil concept of godless communism. That's insane and twisted as heck!
The Demiurge is an evil concept because he was given the right to create even though he was evil. Only the uncreated Creator can create because only the Creator is perfect in every way. I think you are misrepresenting gnosticism, because the basis of gnostic is clearly outlined.
God created you, you sinned, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. God loved you so much He died for you on the cross to save you from your self, but you reject Him. You call Him a dictator. You're only dictating yourself above God's loving merciful act. He did all He can do for you; it is now up to you to continue to reject His love or receive it. God is the computer program of the program we are in. He is just. Nothing He does is wrong, so when you accuse Him, you condemn yourself.
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
I don't care what you think, and nor does the Gnostics. According to Gnostic theology, the God of the OT is the Demiurge, and a separate being from the God of the NT, who is the actual son of Sophia.Quote:
God of the OT (same as the NT) is not gnostic, so He is not the Demiurge you speak of.
The question was not if these people claimed to be the uncreated creator; I mentioned them because they walked earth and founded various religions. I brought them up because you said "none of the ethereal beings you cite are unsubstantiated, but Jesus walked Earth." By the way, would you care to tell me which ethereal beings I cited?Quote:
None of these ever claimed to be the uncreated creator: Muhammad, Zoroaster, Buddha, Confucius. Only Jesus did. He is unique.
Yes, of course, either you're trying to avoid answering my question or you do not get what I am saying. I said that communist states often employ black and white thinking along the lines of "either you're with me or against me," not that communist states are better than democracies.Quote:
There is a definite improvement of democracies over communism. There is no gray area about this.
It is black and white thinking to say that either you're with Jesus or you are his enemy.Quote:
Just like there is no gray area about Jesus who died on the cross for your sins. Either He did it or He didn't do it.
I am not blaming God for communism. Read my post.Quote:
Don't blame God's precision work and excellence bar none for the evil concept of godless communism.
No, he went against the will of Sophia just like man went against the will of God. If man has free will and can decide to be good or evil, so does the Demiurge. Sophia did not create Him with the intention of being evil; he turned evil on his own account.Quote:
The Demiurge is an evil concept because he was given the right to create even though he was evil.
This outline is written by you, and you do not seem to understand a lot about Gnosticism.Quote:
God of the Bible conveys Himself as being uncreated, not a son of Sophia, so there is your first mistake. Jesus is the Son of God and Son of Man conveying His deity. He does this in Matt. 9.1-8. Make sure you read it to confirm for yourself.
Mat 9:1 And he entered into a boat, and crossed over, and came into his own city. Mat 9:2 And behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, be of good cheer; thy sins are forgiven. Mat 9:3 "Blasphemy! This man talks like he is God!" some of the teachers of religious law said among themselves. Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? Mat 9:5 For which is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Arise, and walk? Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saith he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go up unto thy house. Mat 9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house. Mat 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they were afraid, and glorified God, who had given such authority unto men.The Messiah in Isaiah 53 is the Christ. Jesus said He is the great "I AM" so did God of the OT. Since you have nothing to back your theology, why hold onto it? Why cling to something you have no evidence for? Just like Islam said Jesus did not die on the cross, you believe in gnosticism. You guys don't need evidence. That is illogical.
Founding a religion is not what is in focus. For the uncreated Creator He must admit He is the uncreated Creator. That's what Jesus does. None of your other folks did that. Walking the earth is what we all do, so that is no big deal. Walking the earth and calling yourself God is unique.
Just because an evil nation thinks black and white, does not mean black and white is not true, but that their kind of black and white is false. Jesus proved the only way to salvation is through Him and the only way to the Father is through the Son, for good reason, since only Jesus was sinless. An imperfect sacrifice will never fully atone for my sins nor yours. This clearly indicates you are going to hell for rejecting God's only begotten Son.
Since you call Jesus a liar when He said He is God, you're definitely black and white on the subject, so you are going to hell, because there is no other name by which one may be saved under heaven. Jesus said that Himself. He told you the truth, for He is God. The Pharisees recognized Jesus was saying He is God so they accused of Him. He is the One who has the power to forgive your sins.
I didn't say you were blaming communism, I said you were blaming God's precision work which you call black and white. You do this because your are expressing your independency and disobedience to God in your sin nature. Only hell can further address your condition.
Though God created man perfectly and man choose to rebel, God still didn't give man the right to create sentient beings. But your evil god Sophia did.
I did not write that link on gnosticism. It was taken out of the magazine, "Christianity". Funny. Have you noticed you are always wrong? Always assuming things you can't back up. That is what it means to be antichrist, for Christ is true and you therefore reject all truth, for all truth leads back to Him. He sums up all things. All things begin and end with Him. My prayers go out to you, for you know not what you do.
Praise the Lord for this discernment!
The God of the Bible does leave His Creation unattended. From A&E eating some fruit, to the Israelites being conquered by the Chaldeans, to the creation of the HIV virus, the God of the Bible has been notoriously absent. He didn't stop the Holocaust or the creation of nuclear weapons, and He didn't explain why the burning of fossil fuels is immoral. He didn't even say that slavery was immoral.Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
The God of the Bible is utterly absent from human history. There are plenty of humans claiming to speak for Him, but He Himself is utterly absent.
The god of deism doesn't say that. The god of deism doesn't say anything.Quote:
But the god of deism says he left his creation unattended.
I believe in God, myself. I believe in a god which is Perfect, Eternal, and Changeless.
Such a god is more like gravity than a human being. Nothing is left unattended, but such a god isn't limited like the God of the Bible is. God doesn't "want" anything, or "plan" anything. God cannot be thwarted by sapient molecules on a little planet. God doesn't care about anything, doesn't do anything, God just Is. God doesn't need a Bible or a Resurrection or worship, God isn't even aware of such human minutae.
Gnosticism is not the same as deism.Quote:
The righteousness of the God of the Bible trumps the god of gnosticism for a righteous God would not let an evil god to create us.
And while I don't claim to know what the term "gnosticism" refers to, precisely, the God of the Bible is demonstrably evil. That I can show, by quoting the Bible Itself.
He planted a Tree in the Biblical garden of Eden that caused all the evil in Creation.
Tom
These are the consequences of sin. You want to sin and not have consequences. The HIV virus permutated directly from sin. Only in Christianity does God enter His creation personally to die on the cross for the sins of the world. There is no greater love. Men killed Him, so He gives them what they want (absence in Person). He goes back up to Heaven and let's man see they can't do it on their own without Him. Then He will return to reign on earth for 1000 years in Person. Burning of fossil fuels inordinately is harmful to our own health. It causes cancer. God is showing us when we move ahead of His lead, problems occur, like Adam and Eve eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It is not that God didn't want us to have this knowledge but all in due time. Man is impatient and independent. God dwells in all of His children by the Holy Spirit. In your spirit resides the evil spirit. The Church is His body. He is here.Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus
The dictionary disagrees with you: "belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it."Quote:
The god of deism doesn't say that. The god of deism doesn't say anything.
What you consider perfect in your god, we consider is evil, because he is impersonal and inaccessible, too selfish to pay for sins.Quote:
I believe in God, myself. I believe in a god which is Perfect, Eternal, and Changeless.
Your god does leave things unattended because there is the HIV virus, other disease, war, murder, rape, crime, whereas God of the Bible shows these are the consequences of sin. His redemptive design has a plan to deal with all this. Your god is limited because he doesn't have the power to enter his creation personally like Jesus did to show us how to be. Yours is a like an absentee landlord of deism and gnostic for he is evil to be that way. God is not being thwarted in anything He is doing. It is all within His divine providence. He wants out of His glory to fellowship with those who love Him. Nobody knows all the things God has planned for those who love Him. It's a plan, but not in the sense you and I plan, but His plan is intuitively mindful and pure conscience. An evil god "doesn't care about anything". God gives His word of the Bible to show us His will because He is gracious and merciful. He doesn't leave us in the dark like your god does. Just imagine what the world would be like without the Bible, the freest book in the world that has produced the most charities in the world and most martyrs in the world. People's lives are improved by when we remember the self-sacrifice in Christians to stand up for what is right as our Lord Jesus did. He fashions Himself in our image for us to be the perfect sacrifice. Since He wants to spend eternity with His elect, resurrection follows. God is aware of everything. He is all-knowing. Your god obviously doesn't have this ability, for you said he "isn't even aware". Your god is pathetic.Quote:
Such a god is more like gravity than a human being. Nothing is left unattended, but such a god isn't limited like the God of the Bible is. God doesn't "want" anything, or "plan" anything. God cannot be thwarted by sapient molecules on a little planet. God doesn't care about anything, doesn't do anything, God just Is. God doesn't need a Bible or a Resurrection or worship, God isn't even aware of such human minutae.
I never said gnosticism is the same as deism though of course, they are very similar. Gnosticism in the description of this forum you're posting in already says gnosticism is an evil god who creates like the god of deism who is an absentee landlord. That's the god Antony Flew believes in so Antony is going to Hell.Quote:
Gnosticism is not the same as deism.
And while I don't claim to know what the term "gnosticism" refers to, precisely, the God of the Bible is demonstrably evil. That I can show, by quoting the Bible Itself.
He planted a Tree in the Biblical garden of Eden that caused all the evil in Creation.
I am glad you couldn't find God of the Bible to be evil. Praise the Lord! God did not cause man to sin, that was man's choice. God did not cause Lucifer to fall, that was Lucifer's fault. God did not cause 1/3 of the angels to follow Satan your father, that was their and your choice. You keep blaming God for your own choices. How childish.