What's Wrong with Treating God as Only a Temporary Deliverer in 1 Timothy 4.10?

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06-18-2012, 10:23 PM
Parture

What's Wrong with Treating God as Only a Temporary Deliverer in 1 Timothy 4.10?

Re: Letsscrutinize @ Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXcWSYueDAA

In response to this video let me share these words. Hypothetical salvation is exactly what 1 Tim. 4.10 is referring to since if everyone accepted God they would be saved. There are no verses to suggest otherwise.

Jesus is a liar because some reject Him? Nonsense. God's providential care is in complete control of all our free choices.

Here are several other ways Calvinists try to alter this verse (see video below).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aX6R1SZ0zM&list=PL96CD654E01C5F934&am p;index= 30&feature=plpp_video

In this video I have already addressed the matter of "deliverer" so there is no need attach your video to my video as a response.

You'll notice in response to your "temporary deliverer" the question is raised, why would God stop short of a person's salvation and only deliver them temporarily, rather than save them? What mercy is that?

Recall you placed within the big group of saved and unsaved the believers who would be saved, but why would God not save all men if He could?

And as my video already addressed, furthermore, we have a group of "saved and unsaved" that God is the Savior of, but specially those who believe are not just temporarily delivered, but are eternally delivered. Hence, you can see the mismatch of your greater group of "saved and unsaved" that are only "temporarily delivered" when the believers are not merely temporarily delivered but clearly eternally saved. In essence what you are preaching (speaking to the first video) is temporary deliverance for the believers? That seems like a weird statement to make considering believers are once-saved-always-saved.

There is no specific context of being a temporary deliverer like the Jews out of Egypt so such an approach would be quite ad hoc, not very plausible and does not have explanatory power and scope for the chapter it belongs to. Salvation is the issue.

Therefore, and as already stated in my video, "Savior of all men" cannot be just a sustainer or of temporary measure.

The context is undeniable in these verses:
"Nourishing the message of faith" (v.6).
"The good teaching you have followed" (v.6).
"Benefits in the life to come" (v.8).
"Hope is in the living God" (v.10).
"For the sake of your own salvation and the salvation of those who hear you" (v.16).

Do these verses have the flavor of anything other than salvation? Certainly you will agree they deal with eternal life not temporary deliverance.
06-19-2012, 10:48 AM
Churchwork

Re: Letsscrutinize @ Youtube

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letsscrutinize

Is Jesus the savior of the people in hell? Is he the savior of Adolf Hitler? How is he the savior of Adolf Hitler? How did he save Adolf Hitler? What do you mean by the word, "Savior" ?

Nobody is in Hell yet, so your question is a false one. The Antichrist will be the first person to go to Hell. 1 Tim. 4.10 is referring to people when they are alive, not a decision made after they die. God is the "Savior of all men" because He provides salvation to all whosoever is willing. What child would read it any differently?

So you can see every angle you try falls on its head. This is why after all these years I find 1 Timothy 4.10 to be one of the best if not the best verse to prove Calvinism is false.
06-19-2012, 11:00 AM
Churchwork

Matt J. Slick of CARM emailed me back and said "Is God the savior of people in hell?" To which I responded, who in their right mind thinks 1 Tim. 4.10 is refering to people after they died and go to Hell? This verse is clearly referring to people before they died; therefore, God is the Savior of all men because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world and God provides us all sufficient grace to have the free choice. The god of Calvinism is not only unwilling but unable to do so.

Slick followed up with another email,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt J. Slick

So then all means only those alive?
So, he is the savior of those GOING to hell?????????

"All men" means all men when they are alive. Are not all men alive at some point? This is not a change of mind after one dies, but the choice afforded us while we are alive. Are you saying you believe people could have a change of mind and repent after they die? That is a heresy.

Yes, God is the Savior of you even though you are going to Hell, because your decision to reject His love does not make Him any less of a Savior. That's my God!

Praise the Lord!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmRzXKlLEE4&list=PL96CD654E01C5F934&am p;index= 31&feature=plpp_video
06-20-2012, 12:44 AM
letsscrutinize

One quick remark, I've told you before but I guess you didn't believe me. The words temporary and temporal mean two different things. I never used the word temporary and yet the title of this forum thread is titled temporary deliverer. Here's the definition of Temporal:
pertaining to or concerned with the present life or this world; worldly: temporal joys.

When the Hebrews were moving in the exodus, God supplied temporal deliverance through Moses to the them. He supplied their needs. Food, shelter, raiment.
06-20-2012, 12:52 AM
letsscrutinize

Hi Churchwork,

I guess your forum is an easier place to communicate so I will continue our conversation here, I await all the editing, lol.

When we were talking about Adolf Hitler, you wrote the following:

Quote:

Since Jesus died for Adolf, but Adolf rejected the ransom then Adolf remains condemned.
Christ's death has value since it saves whosoever is willing.
Christ remains a Savior to all men who when alive could receive Christ.

So my question would be thus:
What does the word savior mean to you?
Would you accept the following simple definition-- A savior is a person who brings someone out of a bad situation into a better one.
If you do accept this definition, then please explain in what way Christ brought Adolf Hitler from a bad situation to a better one.

I think we all agree that the word savior doesn't mean, a person who would like to save.
I think we all agree a savior is a person who does the end effect.

Imagine you are watching the news on television and you see a family inside a house being torn apart by a hurricane.
You would like to help these people but you are 7,000 miles away. Is there any possibility in the remotest that you can be called that family's savior?

You say that Christ is Adolf Hitler's savior, you say that there is no doubt that Christ can be called Hitler's savior. If this is true then my question would be, in what way did he save?

What you have instead, would be better termed, a Wannabe-savior. What you have been explaining is that Christ wants to save but CAN'T because he is frustrated by the will of man's power to deny him.

I can call Christ a savior because he actually saves.

So my second approach is thus:
you said:

Quote:

Christ's death has value since it saves whosoever is willing.

If it saves whoever is willing, then we both agree!
If it doesn't save whoever is not-willing, then we both agree!
If it saves whoever is not willing, what would your answer be?
1. if you said Christ's death saves whoever is not willing, then you are saying that this unwilling person will go to heaven, since Christ's saves him.
2. if you said Christ's death doesn't save whoever aren't willing, then Christ is not the savior of Adolf Hitler.
06-20-2012, 10:09 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by letsscrutinize

One quick remark, I've told you before but I guess you didn't believe me. The words temporary and temporal mean two different things. I never used the word temporary and yet the title of this forum thread is titled temporary deliverer. Here's the definition of Temporal:
pertaining to or concerned with the present life or this world; worldly: temporal joys.

When the Hebrews were moving in the exodus, God supplied temporal deliverance through Moses to the them. He supplied their needs. Food, shelter, raiment.

Why aren't the temporal joys of this present life not temporary only? And how can temporary joys be all that the deliverer provides for "specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10)? I thought those who believed have eternal life, not just temporal or temporary joy.

Clearly "Savior of all men," therefore, can't be just some temporal joy, but He is the Almighty God who provides salvation to any who would receive Him by what His only begotten Son did in dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world. This is the God you reject and is what your god is unable to do.

Give your life to the God of not just mere temporal joy, but the God who saves to the uttermost.
06-20-2012, 10:29 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by letsscrutinize

What does the word savior mean to you?
Would you accept the following simple definition-- A savior is a person who brings someone out of a bad situation into a better one.
If you do accept this definition, then please explain in what way Christ brought Adolf Hitler from a bad situation to a better one.

Savior to me means that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save whosoever is willing to receive Him.

Quote:

I think we all agree that the word savior doesn't mean, a person who would like to save.
I think we all agree a savior is a person who does the end effect.

I think we can both agree a Savior is not just someone who would like to save but actually can save whosoever is willing.

Quote:

Imagine you are watching the news on television and you see a family inside a house being torn apart by a hurricane.
You would like to help these people but you are 7,000 miles away. Is there any possibility in the remotest that you can be called that family's savior?

You can't be called a Savior in this instance, because even if that family pleaded for your help, you can not save them because you don't have the power to do so being 7,000 miles away.

Quote:

You say that Christ is Adolf Hitler's savior, you say that there is no doubt that Christ can be called Hitler's savior. If this is true then my question would be, in what way did he save?

The way in which God saves is that Hitler could have been saved if he accepted the Savior's ransom.

Quote:

What you have instead, would be better termed, a Wannabe-savior. What you have been explaining is that Christ wants to save but CAN'T because he is frustrated by the will of man's power to deny him. I can call Christ a savior because he actually saves.

God is never frustrated by man's will, for God accounts for all things in His design. If God knew nobody would have accepted His saving grace then I doubt He would have created in the first place. But because He knew the New City would be full of those who accepted His only begotten Son, He went ahead with creation. In Molinism, a maximally great God saves the most and damns the least to make our will truly free will.

Quote:

If it saves whoever is willing, then we both agree!
If it doesn't save whoever is not-willing, then we both agree!
If it saves whoever is not willing, what would your answer be?
1. if you said Christ's death saves whoever is not willing, then you are saying that this unwilling person will go to heaven, since Christ's saves him.
2. if you said Christ's death doesn't save whoever aren't willing, then Christ is not the savior of Adolf Hitler.

I never said "If it saves whoever is willing, then we both agree" since I don't believe you believe in free will.
I never said "If it doesn't save whosoever is not-willing, then we both agree" since I don't believe you believe in free will.
I never asked "If it saves whosoever is not willing, what would your answer be?" but since you asked this question, my answer would be, That's not my God!

I never said #1 nor #2 either. You have a lot of propositions for what you assume I think, but I never said any of these things. On the contrary I disagree with your rationalizing on each and every sentence of this lot of words as I explained why.

"God is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe" because God provides sufficient grace to us all to have the free choice to receive what the Lord Jesus did in dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world to be regenerated.

Regeneration is not irresistibly given, but is given once one repents and believes in Christ. Since you admit you have no such experience then realize you are not a Christian.
06-20-2012, 04:15 PM
Churchwork

Letsscrutinize,

I have a project for you. Go to an elementary school with the permission of the Principal of course, and ask a classroom of kids how they would understand 1 Tim. 4.10? I have never seen a kid get all tied up in mental gymnastics like you do. You must approach the word of God with that kind of humble heart as a child has or you will remain lost as you are now. Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Since your god can't do this, obviously you worship a false Christ and are going to Hell.

Compare your god to Hitler and the Aryan race with Calvinists. The god of John Calvin teaches the preterioned from birth belong in Hell just as Hitler taught the Jews belong in the gas chambers because they were born Jews. And the Aryan race were born irresistibly selected like Calvinists claim they are. You're all a bunch of sick bastards and will get no sympathy from me for I know you are going to Hell and shall remain there forever.

Through the years, I have seen commentaries how it was said that Hitler from the books that he read and relied on could not have achieved what he did without the backing and support of the teachings of Calvinism. The flesh really can rationalize and justify any lie.

This is why I wonder the next up and coming generation of teenagers who are today Calvinists are building into a great army to surpass even what Hitler did.

Hitler and the Nazi youth came out the depression, and my guess the depression this time only just got started and will be much deeper and longer than the last one. What follows is the war to end all wars before Jesus returns.