The 24 Elders - Who are They? Revelation 4

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07-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Finestwheat

The 24 Elders - Who are They? Revelation 4

Re: Firesword @ gracecentered.com forums

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Originally Posted by FireSword

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Originally Posted by Christinme

(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.

12 apostles + 12 leaders of the tribe of Israel = 24

The 12 gates of new Jerusalem have the tribe elders name on them

The last mention of the 24 Elders in the Bible is in Rev. 19.4. No mention of the Elders past that, demoting their role and placed under men. "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia." Angels, including the 24 archangels-the eldest angels of the universe-take a subservient role to men.

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev. 21.12). No mention of the gates with the names of Elders on them. Never are the 12 tribes called Elders, nor is the Church ever called Elders.

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(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?

No where in scripture are angels called elders. But they are used to refer to church leaders.

Church leaders of a locality are Elders but not the whole Church. So Elders of the universe can't be the Church. They would then be the 24 archangels. One of those archangels fell who was Lucifer. Only one archangel is ever mentioned in the Bible who is Michael. Naturally, Michael replaced one of the 24 just as Matthias replaced Judas.

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(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.

Christ is the lamb and is the only one worthy to open the seals. The elders are not worthy. Despite their crowns.
The letters to the churches show that Christ promises crowns to them who overcome. There are many crowns and rewards .e.g crown of rightoeusness, crown of life.

If the elders are the Church they are not qualified to open the seals. If the elders are the archangels they are not qualified to open the seals either. So how is that an argument for the elders being the Church? You didn't address the point. The point was that Jesus is still standing when those wearing crowns are sitting in Rev. 4. While archangels can be seen as sitting being the Elders of the universe, it wouldn't make much sense if the Church was sitting while Jesus was still standing and has yet to war against the Antichrist. The eldest Elders of the universe have kingship (they have been ruling over the universe with the Lord's authority for billions of years), but the Church has not received kingship as yet.

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(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.

Joshua the high priest receives a new garment of white, in the old testament.
The 24 elders are just as sinful as the rest of us. Because they are human beings. Otherwise why are they wearing white garments? Who else wears white garments but the glorified saints?

White garments speak of purity. Joshua's Levites sprinkled blood on the objects in the Temple to receive white garments. The 24 archangels have never sinned which agrees with the fact their robes are never washed by the precious blood. Don't assume they are humans then draw a conclusion. Who else than the saints wear white garments but the 24 archangels?

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(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?

So they do sing the song of redemption.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Again to clarify rev1
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Almost every Bible uses word "them" or some variant in Rev. 5.9,10. Only KJV says "us" which is a false rendering leading to pride and self-exaltation. This is the problem of being a KJV Onlyist. They are not praising themselves, but praising others. Let us not pray for ourselves as to focus on self, but pray for others selflessly. Then we shall see our reward. Notice in Rev. 1.5,6 "us" is mentioned because He has "washed us from our sins in his own blood" whereas the archangels have garments that are not washed by the blood so no mention of being washed by the blood, and thus, they can't be praising themselves. The saints themselves don't take up the prayers of the saints, but it is the archangels, 4 creatures and angels that take up the prayers of the saints: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). How can the Church and Old Testament Saints be Elders when it says right here the Elders take up the prayers of the saints? Saints don't take up prayers of the saints. Again, selfishly, taking up one's own prayers will never do nor praying for one's own self relying on self-strength to take up one's own prayers.

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(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.

She might be though. She is the lambs wife. One guy asked Jesus to sit on His right hand. Jesus replied it is not mine to give. Thus it shows there is indeed a position to sit on the throne with God himself the ruler of the universe.
But nevertheless, please show me how you come to this conclusion, that the elders rule the universe?

Since they sing we are kings and priest unto our God and rule upon the Earth.

The lamb's wife is is not the wife yet, for she is still a bride. Who but Satan would ask Jesus to sit on his right hand? Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father. God Himself is the ruler of the universe with His Son and the 24 archangels. Who was first created by God? The angels. Naturally, as there is authority in submission as in all things so it is with the angels- necessitating the 24 archangels. 24 is a number that represents administration as in th 24 courses. It is a grave mistake to take due honor before honor is due. Christians are not kings and priests yet, for we do not yet rule with a "rod of iron" with the Lord over the nations as is given to only some Christians since only some believers are overcomers to be able to enter the 1000 year reign. This does not occur until after the the Tribulation-after which begins the 1000 year reign (Rev. 20.4-6). Out of pride you place the cart before the horse, praising self. That will never do in God's kingdom.

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(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.

Neither do angels. But look and see
Rev8

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

You admit the Church can't take up the prayers of the saints, therefore, you would have to admit the 24 elders are not the Church. Therefore, you are wrong and should not maintain your doubletongue" (1 Tim. 3.8). You quoted Rev. 8.3 another angel taking up the prayers of the saints just as the angels do in Rev. 5.8. What a strange thing you have done to try to make your case. You quoted Rev. 8.3-5 without any commentary on your part to say angels don't take up prayers of the saints, but it says right there, "another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne" (Rev. 8.3). So while angels and Jesus can take up the prayers of the saints, certainly saints can't take up their own prayers. Jesus should never be considered as the 24 Elders or one of the 4 creatures in Rev. 5.8.

8.3 "And another angel"—This "another angel" is a priest, hence he must be the Lord Jesus. The prayers of all the saints ascend to God through the incense offered by this angel. No Christian can offer up prayer except by means of incense, which signifies the merits of Christ. Through the sweet savor of Christ a believer’s prayer reaches before God. Let us not debase the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why is the Lord called an "angel" and not a priest here? Hebrews states: "For verily not to angels doth he [Christ] give help" (Heb. 2.16). When the New Testament epistles mention the Lord’s relationship with us they always describe Him as man. "Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren" (Heb. 2.17). Because He is man, therefore He is closer to mankind. The angels are made a little higher than men. In Genesis 18.2,16, and 22 the word "men" is used to show their closeness to Abraham. Genesis 19.1 uses the word "angels" to distinguish them from ordinary men; yet in Genesis 19.10,12, and 16 the word "men" is used again for they were helping Lot. The reason why in Revelation 8.3 the Lord is designated as an angel is to indicate the changing of time. He is no longer the Son of man in the gospel age. He has now become another angel though still a priest.

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(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.

9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.

Many people called Abraham their lord and the prophets.

3And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

He calls him sir in kjv version. Also he says you knowest. Perhaps it is hinting here that the elder knows, because they are his brothers of the faith.

Abraham is their lord and prophet, but would the church be John's elder? John has the highest standing in the Church. To address one of the archangels as sir makes sense being one of the eldest elders of the universe. I would give respect to that. John calls him Sir in the other major Bible versions so how does that distinguish the KJV? Just as the Elders praised the saints in Rev. 5 for being washed by the blood so such knowledge of the saints is found here in Rev. 7. They can only praise the elect, all who have been washed by the precious blood out of the tribulations so great the past 20 centuries (8.14).

"And they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7.14b). "Robes" is in plural number, and these robes signify righteousnesses, even the righteousnesses of the saints. They do not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as our righteousness. Indeed, the robe (singular) is righteousness (Is. 61.10), and it is the Lord himself (Jer. 23.6), for Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1.30). We are clothed with Him as we come before God. But this righteousness is pertaining the work of the saints.

We have two robes: the one we are clothed with when we are saved, by which we stand before God; the other is our own righteousnesses—even our victories—in which we may stand before Christ. The white garments spoken of in Revelation 3.18 require a price, whereas redemption is that which need not be bought. "His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints" (Rev. 19.8).

No Christian will be judged and condemned before God (John 5.24); but no Christian will be exempt from having to stand and be judged before the judgment seat of Christ according to what he has done (2 Cor. 5.10).

Believers’ robes are washed clean, yet not because of the great tribulation these past 20 centuries but because of the blood of the Lamb.

The very fact that the robes of the saints are washed in the blood of the Lamb shows how they once were defiled on earth yet they have followed the instruction of 1 John 1.9, and thus they are cleansed.

The Elders of the universe have no need of this nor would it even be available because the atonement on the cross was for men not for angels.

The overcomers in Rev. 7.9-17 are related to the overcomers in Rev. 12.1-11 with many points in common I will leave you to compare here, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_7.htm

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(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.

24 literal leaders. 12 apostles and 12 Israelites. The rest of the those who are raptured are around the elders. John sees them as angels. At the end of the book John bows before an angel, but the angel reveals himself as a fellow saint a brother of the faith who keeps the word of the book. So could it be that John mistakes these angels around the throne as being angels also? when in fact they are the saints, the 10 thousand times ten thousand who execute judgment upon the ungodly, prophecied by Enoch in Judes book.

rev4
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

As we have seen the saints can't take up the prayers of the saints so the 24 elders can't be the 12 Apostles nor the 12 tribes of Israel or 12 men of Israel. The 24 elders are individual beings-archangels no less. John was only taken up in spirit to see the vision in Rev. 4. Whereas the rapture and resurrection of the saints is bodily also. Who are around the elders? Just the creatures, later the angels then later men. "And round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind" (Rev. 4.6). Where is the mention of the Church and Old Testament saints in Re. 4.6?

When John fell at his feet Rev. 19.10 to the angel, it doesn't say in the passage that this angel is a man, for we read, "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19.9-10). Does it make sense John would fall to his feet to himself if he is one of the 24 elders? None of the saints are even raptured yet, for we are raptured together at the end of this age which gives us comfort (1 Thess. 4.18). The angel rightly corrects John that he is to bow to no man nor angel but God. All angels not fallen and all men who are saved are God's servants even brethren. To exclude any of them is a grave mistake. These angels have been working hard for the body of Christ a long time now for the redemption of men. Surely, they earn the right to be called servants and brethren.

"Blessed art they" agrees with "them" in Rev. 5.9,10 of the angels praising men. Jude 14,15 says only 10,000 return with Jesus to execute judgment, not 10,000 times 10,000. Did John err? Of course not. He knows who the Church is and who the Elders are; even so, he should not bow down before an angel in humbling himself before an angel. If he confused the angel of being a man which man would that be? James, Peter? Who? No. The saints are not resurrected yet. The saints are resurrected together at the end of this age so he is not having a conversation with an imaginary future Apostle that hasn't been resurrected yet, but an angel even one of the 24 archangels as before. It is the overcomers out of the Church he is informed about by the angel back in Rev. 7 he receives further revelation on; that is to say, only a fraction of believers will return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. 100 million are the angels around the 24 elders but surely more than 100 million will be saved among men. Your numbers don't add up. If what you say is true then 100 million/approx. 300 billion souls from Adam to the end of the 1000 years = 1 in 3,000 people saved. That is not realistic. Surely God can do better than that. 100 million people is too sparse an amount for the New City 1379 x 1379 miles.

Automatically you can realize you are wrong about Rev. 5.11 (you said 4.11 mistakenly), for John would not make such a mistake in thinking they are the Church. He knows who the Church is. He is a highest member of the Church. The Church is no mystery to John. The reason there are no people around the throne yet in Rev. 5.11 is because, obviously, rapture has not taken place yet, not till "before the throne" at Rev. 7.9 in 3rd heaven. The signs before this takes places is Rev. 6.12: a unique earthquake, a unique solar eclipse and a unique lunar eclipse in that order. Check NASA and a Jewish calendar, and you will see the Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022 since only this date fits the 2,520 days attached to the Tetrad.

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Again the number ten is used with Jude

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Now see this the elders sing this song.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Out of which country?

Israel?

You see the elders all come from Israel. All the disciples and all the 12 tribes are Israel. But these sing a song and say they were redeemed from every kindred, and tongue and people and nation. Not just Israel, you see.

This is the song they sing. Because they are gentiles and Israelites and both are raptured into the throne room before the horsemen are released. They are the faithful Church.

The horsemen in Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries since they are general in nature, and seals are opened secretly in this mystery age the Church. Would Jesus wait 2000 years to begin opening the seals while He is holding the scroll in Rev. 5? Of course not! Hence, the 1st Seal is the bow and arrow that looks like a cross giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross since the arrow has been shot nearly 2000 years ago. He is the same rider as in Revelation 19. God would not confuse the two.

Remember, the prayers of the saints can't be taken up by the saints. This fact alone makes your position impossible. No further discussion is needed which renders you idea false.

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12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

You say the rapture happens after the seals are opened.

The problem is that when this even happens, above. This signals the end of the great tribulation and enters the vial judgment wrath of God. In the gospel Jesus shows that when the moon turns blood red , he will gather all the saints, dead included, not just a few. The great harvest that Jesus spoke of in his parable of gathering his elect from all corners of the earth.

No. Rev. 6.12 occurs before the first trumpet of the Tribulation is blown (8.7). Rev. 8.13 then says after the first 4 trumpets are blown-the first half of the Tribulation-then there will be 3 more trumpets which are the 3 woes. Rev. 9 says the 1st woe is 5 months, the 2nd woe is 13 months, leaving the 7th woe to be 24 months. It is in these last 24 months that the bowls of wrath are poured out. It helps to put in context like how Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1, Rev. chapters 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from chapters 7 to 11.

You also disagree with Joel 2.30-31 that says these signs in the cosmos and earthquake occur before the great and terrible day of the Lord, not after. There are thus, two sets of signs before and after, except the actual unique solar eclipse and red blood moon occur before very specifically so we know when the Tribulation begins. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." The gathering of the elect in Matt. 24.29-31 is talking about signs in the heavens also, but no specific solar eclipse or red blood moon, and only the gathering of the Jews since they were dispersed in the Great Tribulation for 1260 days. Matt. 24.4-31 pertains to the Jews and Israel, Matt. 24.32-25.30 deal with the Church, and Matt. 25.31-46 are regarding the nations. God always keeps in view these three groups. Many detailed proofs establish this fact as certain, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm

Remind yourself of the cosmic events and earthquake (Rev. 6.12) occuring before the Tribulation and those after the Tribulation (Matt. 24.29,31, Rev. 11.19, 16.18) as demarcating the full 7 year Tribulation from beginning to end-with signs before and signs after. Therefore, there would be no contradiction with Joel 2 and Luke 21.25.

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No saint will suffer the wrath of God, only the ungodly. There might be a remnant of flesh people who are saved/spared by God in order to repopulate the Earth, just as he did with Noahs ark, he saved animals to preserve the species. He will also save the human race by sparing a remnant. So he cuts the days short, otherwise no flesh would be saved.

Just because a saint was killed in the Smyrna church period in the 2nd century and God's wrath existed against unrighteousness, doesn't mean God's wrath is upon that person. Likewise, just because God's wrath increases at the beginning of the Tribulation and intensifies in the second half called the Great Tribulation is no reason to think the wrath of God is on the saint if the saint had to pass through that time of testing. Even so, after the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 "before the throne") those who are "alive" and "left" (1 Thess. 4.14-18) at the start of the last trumpet (Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4)-which is hte 7th trumpet-will be raptured with those who are resurrected so as not to enter the period of the bowls of wrath that follow for the next 24 months. Howeover, we should not rule out people can be saved during the gleaning period also that runs for 24 months. The Church remains on earth, for how evil that would be for a child who is no longer under the age of accountability and gives her life to Christ yet there is no Church for her to fellowship with. What love is that? After Jesus judges the nations when He returns and destroys the evil nations, a person if he is to be saved still must believe in Christ individually, except there is no longer being born-again into the Church, nor baptism out of this world since Satan is no longer god of this world during the millennium; and it is not just the Church but all saints since Adam out which those who overcometh will get to reign during the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4-6).

Noah's ark has to do with those who are saved who pass through the Tribulation, whereas Enoch was raptured beforehand. In the flood there were still people on earth, for the flood was just a local flood. There were still animals around the world, but the local animals were a remnant who were "alive" and "left" in the ark.
07-25-2011, 08:44 PM
Finestwheat

12 Men Bring Up the Prayers of the Saints? That's Goofy

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Originally Posted by FireSword

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Originally Posted by Christinme

The last mention of the 24 Elders in the Bible is in Rev. 19.4. No mention of the Elders past that, demoting their role and placed under men. "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia." Angels, including the 24 archangels-the eldest angels of the universe-take a subservient role to men.

"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev. 21.12). No mention of the gates with the names of Elders on them. Never are the 12 tribes called Elders, nor is the Church ever called Elders.

24 archangels reference = zero, umm it sounds good.
Where are these archangels? is Michael the only one who gets of his behind to help the church?

But these 24 elders are refering to particular people
e. Mathew Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Levi, Joseph, Judah, etc

Do you think it's at all possible that the disciples of Jesus Himself the messiah, the center of Christian faith to be given positions of authority in heaven?
Also the leaders of the tribe of Israel the very beginings of the faith?

The 24 courses follow the pattern in heaven of the 24 archangels. They were not specifically mentioned, so this is new revelation as there is new revelation every book of the Bible, consistent with all of Scripture. Michael is the archangel not for the Church but for Israel.

These 24 elders can't be people because people can't take up the prayers of the saints. That's self-strength. That's wrong. You keep avoiding this point. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8).

The positions of authority in heaven are given to the 24 archangels. Whereas saints will be given positions of reigning authority as kings and priests on earth during the millennial kingdom after which the 1000 years ends then rewards are done away with and the resurrected-saved will be the pillars of the New City in eternity future.

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Church leaders of a locality are Elders but not the whole Church. So Elders of the universe can't be the Church. They would then be the 24 archangels. One of those archangels fell who was Lucifer. Only one archangel is ever mentioned in the Bible who is Michael. Naturally, Michael replaced one of the 24 just as Matthias replaced Judas.

You said the elders are not the church. I never said/meant the elders are the church. I said they are the leaders of the church and of Israel. The rest of the church are surrounding them singing song to Jesus.
Now you are saying one of these elders with crowns is Lucifer casting crowns before the lamb of God, and singing songs. Then you say Michael replaces him. Nowhere is this mentioned in scripture.

Do you know see how your belief is crumbling before you?
If inded it is your belief

Apostles have the highest position, not Elders in the Church. Apostles are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of a church locality. Paul would appoint Elders. Elders didn't appoint Paul. It would be quite strange to erect Elders in heaven and that there would be only 24. There are thousands if not millions of Elders today in charge of church localities (city or town) today, not just 24. Israel does not reign as kings and priests in Rev. 20.4-6. This is just given to overcomers. Israel gets to be the center of all nations, but she does not reign. Any Jewish person to be saved still has to give his or her life to Christ. The true Jew is a Christian.

In Revelation 4, as was said before, it says angels surround the throne not saints. Saints aren't mentioned yet in Rev. 4 because that is a picture of the state of the universe from heaven. The Church is not rapture yet. Rev. 4 is only talking about angels as is the present state in 3rd heaven today. Not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet (Acts 2.34). I like how the picture in heaven is disclosed to us with the angels there. What an excellent time to introduce to us never before seen administrative work of the 24 archangels of which Michael is one of them.

By the time of Revelation 4, obviously Lucifer is not there since he was thrown out of 3rd heaven with a 3rd of the angels. What you see is 24 archangels and Michael replaced Lucifer. That's the condition today, and has been for billions of years.

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If the elders are the Church they are not qualified to open the seals. If the elders are the archangels they are not qualified to open the seals either. So how is that an argument for the elders being the Church? You didn't address the point. The point was that Jesus is still standing when those wearing crowns are sitting in Rev. 4. While archangels can be seen as sitting being the Elders of the universe, it wouldn't make much sense if the Church was sitting while Jesus was still standing and has yet to war against the Antichrist. The eldest Elders of the universe have kingship (they have been ruling over the universe with the Lord's authority for billions of years), but the Church has not received kingship as yet.

I am refering to the fact that you said Christ is just standing there. I am saying that Christ has glory by opening the seals.
Why does it not make sense that the elders are bowing before the lamb?
There is plenty of time for Jesus to make war with the antichrist. Jesus first prepares his bride then he makes war at armageddon, and he takes the elders and the church with Him to execute judgment upon the ungodly.

"The eldest elders" - No offence but this sounds like it is taken out of a lord of the rings book.
An imagined fancy, that these elders have long white beards and are the ancient wise men of heaven correct?
John says he has made us kings and priests in the first chapter of revelation

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I am referring to the fact that the 24 elders are sitting, not bowing, while Jesus is standing which is weird if the Elders are 12 men, since Jesus should be sitting if these 24 elders are men. Jesus is the king. But it would make sense if the archangels have been there a long time. Also, Jesus wouldn't wait 2000 years to open the Seals. Hence the 1st Seal is the cross in this mystery age of the Church. Seals are opened secretly; whereas Trumpets are loud of the Tribulation.

All the way through Revelation 4 & 5 no saints are seen in 3rd heaven yet. Just God the Father, the Lion of Judah, the 24 archangels, the 4 beasts, and the 100 million angels. It is most wonderful all this preparatory work is being performed by the angels prior to the resurrection of God's elect.

Jesus' bride, the Church, is being prepared these past 20 centuries (Rev. 2 & 3). She becomes the wife only in the millennial kingdom, not before.

There is authority and submission in all things, why not for the angels? Hence, there are the eldest elders of the universe being the 24 archangels. There are principalities and dominions in the fallen angels, why not the archangels? I have no picture of what they look like. They are spirit. Why do you mock God's angels?

The fulfillment of Rev. 1.6 is in the millennial reign (Rev. 20.4-6) as kings and priests at the consummation of this age. Obviously, Christians are not reigning now as kings and priests over the nations with a "rod of iron."

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White garments speak of purity. Joshua's Levites sprinkled blood on the objects in the Temple to receive white garments. The 24 archangels have never sinned which agrees with the fact their robes are never washed by the precious blood. Don't assume they are humans then draw a conclusion. Who else than the saints wear white garments but the 24 archangels?

Where are angels spokeon of in scripture having white garments? where is Michael shown as having garments? But scripture does show saints in white garments in the same book.
Unless there is other evidence, drawing a conclusion that the elders are humans is pretty safe.

"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow" (Matt. 28.2-3; see Mark 16.5, Luke 24.4, John 20.12-13).I don't think it is necessary that it says Michael wore white, for we have precedence in the Scriptures white is worn by the angels which speaks of their purity. The white garments of the saints is shown in the book washed by the precious blood but not so for the Archangels because they have no sin. Please tell me where in Revelation 4 or 5 the white robes of the 24 Elders are washed by the precious blood. You will be searching for eternity.

All you need is one verse to know the 24 elders are not humans in Rev. 5: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (v.8). You keep avoiding this point time and again, but the fact remains here the saints don't take up the prayers of the saints, only the angels do.

So is it safe to believe something so contrary to Scripture? I can think of one devastating influence over you, that you are antinomian in which you can be as carnal a Christian as you like, and you will still be raptured before the Tribulation and reign during the 1000 years. I assure you, such a carnal attitude is delusional to say the least: either because you are a false Christian or a carnal one who will lose this reward. 1000 years is a long time to lose the reward of reigning with Christ.

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Almost every Bible uses word "them" or some variant in Rev. 5.9,10. Only KJV says "us" which is a false rendering leading to pride and self-exaltation. This is the problem of being a KJV Onlyist. They are not praising themselves, but praising others. Let us not pray for ourselves as to focus on self, but pray for others selflessly. Then we shall see our reward. Notice in Rev. 1.5,6 "us" is mentioned because He has "washed us from our sins in his own blood" whereas the archangels have garments that are not washed by the blood so no mention of being washed by the blood, and thus, they can't be praising themselves. The saints themselves don't take up the prayers of the saints, but it is the archangels, 4 creatures and angels that take up the prayers of the saints: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). How can the Church and Old Testament Saints be Elders when it says right here the Elders take up the prayers of the saints? Saints don't take up prayers of the saints. Again, selfishly, taking up one's own prayers will never do nor praying for one's own self relying on self-strength to take up one's own prayers.

You had better not sing the forbidden words then, that saved I am through the blood of Jesus, lest the sin of selfishness rises it's ugly head.
How selfish that Jesus was for him to pray for the cup to pass away from Him
Where in scripture is prayer for self forbidden?
Sounds like religious nonsense to me.
Come out of that entrapment if you want to live life fully. Our own prayers is all we have, unless we are part of a group of believers who pray for us. If we are part of a group we are going to pray for others in our own group, to be healed etc. But if alone we have to pray for our own healing, deliverance.

You missed the point. One should give praise to God for saving us from our sins, but you can't do so in the context where there is no white robes that were washed by the blood. Again, where is there the washing of the robes of the 24 elders by the precious blood? You can't find it. Let us stick with the evidence and put aside our biases to let the evidence lead us where it may.

Nowhere in Scripture are we to center oneself on self, but to keep one's eye on Christ. Self-introspection is not healthy, it is self-centered and self-indulgent. Jesus was praying to God to know His will with certainty. He was not focused on self in the Garden of Gethsemane. Don't falsely accuse Him. When Peter said to Jesus to save himself, Jesus called Peter the devil, because Peter was calling for Jesus to center on his self. Why do you reject this word of God? It's because you are so selfishly self-indulgent that you have convinced yourself there is nothing wrong, but Christians can see you do great harm to yourself. You're engaged in religious nonsense.

You can pray to find His will for your life, but that is far different than self-indulgence. It's quite revealing how you keep failing to address Rev. 5, ""And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (v.8). The angels take up the prayers of the saints, not men. You are trying to do what God will not allow you to do, thus, you are going your own way. Angels have a role to play which is to take up the prayers of the saints.

Often prayers for healing and deliverance are selfish prayers, and this is the kind of prayer that is not praying God's will. If you were instead to pray God's will and not think you can take your own prayers up to God but leave this for the angels, as that is their responsibility, you would not try to do what you cannot do.

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The lamb's wife is not the wife yet, for she is still a bride. Who but Satan would ask Jesus to sit on his right hand? Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father. God Himself is the ruler of the universe with His Son and the 24 archangels. Who was first created by God? The angels. Naturally, as there is authority in submission as in all things so it is with the angels- necessitating the 24 archangels. 24 is a number that represents administration as in th 24 courses. It is a grave mistake to take due honor before honor is due. Christians are not kings and priests yet, for we do not yet rule with a "rod of iron" with the Lord over the nations as is given to only some Christians since only some believers are overcomers to be able to enter the 1000 year reign. This does not occur until after the the Tribulation-after which begins the 1000 year reign (Rev. 20.4-6). Out of pride you place the cart before the horse, praising self. That will never do in God's kingdom.

It is plain in scripture what satan wants and I assure you it is not to sit on the right hand of Jesus.
There is no praising self involved by saying the elders are the disciples of Jesus Christ. In fact what you say sounds like a tactic of satan, (not saying you are wolf or false prophet) to invite fear of the possibility and scriptural authority of the elders as being the disciples of Jesus and fathers of the faith Israelite patriachs.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Satan tempted Jesus to sit at his right hand when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness for 40 days. It would give great pleasure to Satan for Jesus to bow to him. You are praising self saying the 24 elders are human disciples of Jesus Christ for in so doing you have men taking up the prayers of the saints and rejecting God's word that say angels take up the prayers of the saints. So in the power of your flesh you do what only angels can do. How corrupted is your heart that you think you can do the impossible. Actually delusional! Even though you know Rev. 5.8 says that only angels can take up the prayers of the saints and not men, you still exalt man to do what he cannot do and what God has not ordained man to do. You say there is fear in rejecting Scripture yet you don't repent of your aborrent teaching which shows how corrupted your heart is. You're a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Out of the churches, only those believers who overcometh get to reign during the 1000 years. Obviously they are not reigning now, but the 24 archangels are.

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You admit the Church can't take up the prayers of the saints, therefore, you would have to admit the 24 elders are not the Church. Therefore, you are wrong and should not maintain your doubletongue" (1 Tim. 3.8). You quoted Rev. 8.3 another angel taking up the prayers of the saints just as the angels do in Rev. 5.8. What a strange thing you have done to try to make your case. You quoted Rev. 8.3-5 without any commentary on your part to say angels don't take up prayers of the saints, but it says right there, "another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne" (Rev. 8.3). So while angels and Jesus can take up the prayers of the saints, certainly saints can't take up their own prayers. Jesus should never be considered as the 24 Elders or one of the 4 creatures in Rev. 5.8.

I don't admit the church cannot take the prayers.
I don't see what the problem is, if an elder of the church takes the prayers of the faith. Remember that the gospel says to confess faults to one another and for the elders to be at the forefront of church matters.
If the angels can take up the prayers, then why not the elders?
We are dealing with end time events here the end of all things. The culimination of all prayers send to the Father. The elders are able to pray too and the saints. Jesus tells us to pray, do angels pray?

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Where does the Church take up the prayers of the saints? Moreover, you said the 24 Elders are not the Church but 12 men. 12 men take up the prayers of the saints? Where do they get the energy? Are they like Santa clause? 100 million angels can take up the prayers of the saints though. Where do you get this weird theology? How can 12 men take up all the prayers of the saints? And what happened before when these men were not allegedly already raised, who then was taking up the prayers ofthe saints if not the angels? Nothing you say makes any sense at all.

Confessing to one other is not our taking up the prayers of the saints. Those vials of prayers are carried up by angels-millions of them. 12 men couldn't do that alone. One can sense some great denomination erecting itself on this false basis and teaching, misreading Rev. 5.8. To carry prayers to God as is shown in 5.8 is not the action of the Church. Even though the Church is commanded in the Scriptures to pray for others, God has not asked her to bring others’ prayers to Him. The Church does not have this power. Many commentators agree that the angel spoken of in 8.3-4 refers to the Lord. Whether or not it is the Lord, it can at least be said that the task of carrying prayers to God is done by angels. Thus, bringing prayers of the saints to God as mentioned in 5.8 must be a task done by the angels. Don't confuse confessing to one another with the bringing up those prayers to God. You are trying to do the impossible which speaks of your failure in life.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed them to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made them unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev. 5.9,10). Praise the Lord! Since men can't take up prayers of the saints to God and only angels can, we can be confident these 24 angels who sing this song do so because God has redeemed men and makes them kings and priest in the millenial kingdom-to-come. Many do not have faith to believe this, so they worship a false Christ and reject our Lord who is coming.

You put angels out of a job because in your faith they don't take up the prayers of the saints, but you give this job to 12 men who aren't even resurrected yet. Funny. Your theology gets more goofy the more you contemplate it.

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8.3 "And another angel"—This "another angel" is a priest, hence he must be the Lord Jesus. The prayers of all the saints ascend to God through the incense offered by this angel. No Christian can offer up prayer except by means of incense, which signifies the merits of Christ. Through the sweet savor of Christ a believer’s prayer reaches before God. Let us not debase the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why is the Lord called an "angel" and not a priest here? Hebrews states: "For verily not to angels doth he [Christ] give help" (Heb. 2.16). When the New Testament epistles mention the Lord’s relationship with us they always describe Him as man. "Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren" (Heb. 2.17). Because He is man, therefore He is closer to mankind. The angels are made a little higher than men. In Genesis 18.2,16, and 22 the word "men" is used to show their closeness to Abraham. Genesis 19.1 uses the word "angels" to distinguish them from ordinary men; yet in Genesis 19.10,12, and 16 the word "men" is used again for they were helping Lot. The reason why in Revelation 8.3 the Lord is designated as an angel is to indicate the changing of time. He is no longer the Son of man in the gospel age. He has now become another angel though still a priest.

I have no comment on this one. I hope my words have shown you the truth of scripture in the light of Jesus Christ and show you some of the issues you might need addressing withinyourself.
Thank you for you reply.

You are welcome. I do what I can to help lost souls.

I hope my words have shown that you are presenting a false Christ in which men bring up the prayers of the saints, relying on delusion and self-strength, rather than angels to do their job of taking up the prayers of the saints. Pride begets the fall. In so doing you are part of a cult or denom that exalts itself on this basis and such is your downfall trying to get in line behind 12 men. The problem ultimately is you are focused on self-strength and not God's strength. Thus, you don't know the power of the Lord almighty who gives the job to taking up the prayers of the saints to the angels. He has never ordained men for such purpose. Is this how you circumvent God's will?
07-26-2011, 03:49 PM
Finestwheat

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Originally Posted by FireSword

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Originally Posted by Christinme

I hope my words have shown that you are presenting a false Christ in which men bring up the prayers of the saints, relying on delusion and self-strength, rather than angels to do their job of taking up the prayers of the saints. Pride begets the fall. In so doing you are part of a cult or denom that exalts itself on this basis and such is your downfall trying to get in line behind 12 men. The problem ultimately is you are focused on self-strength and not God's strength. Thus, you don't know the power of the Lord almighty who gives the job to taking up the prayers of the saints to the angels. He has never ordained men for such purpose. Is this how you circumvent God's will?

A natural emotional reaction to someone who has been defeated. Your reply is mostly full of attacks. This after discussion one time. My friend if you practice this attitude with most people you are likely to draw people away from Christ not to them. You say I am part of a cult, problem is that could be the reason why you believe the elders to be archangels. You have probably picked up a non biblical book that talks about archangels being the elders and are now upset that this belief has been defeated with scripture. I can tell you are reading non biblical books by your dogmatic reaction to a belief that is not even part of the doctrines in church to be saved. Your name calling do not impress me one bit. If you think that being self strength is being saved by God through His blood, to make the elders and church kings and priest then that is your own affair. I simply believe what the scriptures say.

You're entrenched in your emotional commitment. God hardens the Pharaoh heart further as is yours being hardened by the first active instance of hardening your own heart first. You're under the impression you could somehow change your mind if someone approached you differently and didn't tell you about the negative consequences of your false teaching. It's not the case. Was the Pharaoh ever going to change his mind? Of course not. What you don't realize is you have made up your mind come hell or water. We should not overlook the negative consequences of a false teaching. I have brought that to light irrespective of your hardness and darkness. When you claim you can bring up your own prayers to heaven this is entirely delusional and arrogant. You put the angels out of a job, because of your great power and mighty ability to take up your own prayers. This is engendered in the idea you claim 12 men take up the prayers of all the saints of the world. How could 12 men do such a thing?

Clearly, you are misreading Rev. 5.8 and giving men strength they do not have and thus yourself power you do not in reality possess. Your view has been defeated with Scripture: "the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 5.8, 8.3-4). How could someone misread what is so plainly said here unless they are in some cult that controls them? This is the throne in 3rd heaven, taking up the prayers of the saints to 3rd heaven. The smoke of the incense rises up to the throne "ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." Where does it say out of the man's hand? Clearly you are in some man-centered cult that thinks it can take up its own prayers to God when the Bible is clear here that only the angels take up the prayers of the saints. You won't repent, therefore, though shalt be judged and punished for your heresy.

My prayer here is though you will never repent, may those who read these words not be deceived by you.

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The word say the prayers of the saints. Saying they are selfish is your presumptious idea. Does it not occur to you that their prayers might be in fact praying for someonelse.

Again, you totally missed the point. You are quite a belligerent and ignorant soul. Whether the prayers of the saints are praying for something in their lives or for others is not the point, but that YOUR prayers are selfish because attached to those prayers of yours is the idea you can take up your own prayers to God when clearly only the angels do this. You're engrossed in delusional self-strength that you are able to do what God says you can't do. And it is in the context of white robes that are not washed by the precious blood since the Elders are Archangels who know no sin. So you put on a white robe not washed by the precious blood, therefore, you were never born-again.

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wow, slow down. You are not talking sense. Satan wanted Jesus to bow to him. You originally said that satan would like to sit on the right hand of Jesus. So I guess you are agreeing here with me, by accident probably.

We are not talking about me. The elders are the disciples of Jesus Christ. I am not one of the 12 disciples of Jesus Christ. Jesus gave the disciples all power over the enemy in His name. You say how corrupted my heart is for believing the impossible? That is a strange statement for a Christian. The bible says all things are possible through Christ Jesus. Once again you go against scripture. Jesus tells us to pray, but yet you say that is a sign of a corrupted heart. Give me a break wolfy, your sheep disguise is to funny.

The letters to the churches show that those who overcometh are given crowns of righteousness. But where in scripture are angels ever having crowns?

Where did I say Jesus would like to sit on the right hand of Jesus? Surely you are mad. Since I did not say what you said I said, how would I be agreeing with you that you think Satan would like to sit at the right hand of the Father? Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness and offered Jesus to bow to him. You are one twisted and deceitful person, sinning bearing false witness, trying to pull the wool over others' eyes.

We are talking about you, because of your selfish prayers, since you think you or other men can take up your own prayers to the throne when Rev. 5.8, 8.3-4 clearly show only the angels take up the prayers of the saints to the throne in 3rd heaven. You're believing a lie, a lie which is impossible, yet you think it is strange? People believe lies all the time that are impossible. When Jesus says all things are possible, He is not talking about impossible lies. He is saying victory is ours who are in Christ. Again, you twist the Scriptures in bizarre ways. Once again you go against Scripture. Then you accuse me of saying praying is a sign of corrupted heart? Where do you come up with this stuff? Obviously, your favorite sin is to sin bearing false witness. You're a bad guy. You are clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing and will never repent. God has nothing for you but Hell. Why so impatient to get there?

Where in Scripture are the angels seen wearing crowns? Where is the Church seen wearing crowns yet? Archangels will relinquish their crowns and so will men, because after the 1000 years rewards are done away with. Think about what you are saying. You're saying angels have no authority in God's kingdom since you say they don't wear crowns, yet they have been around billions of years. They are in 3rd heaven working with God with authority. Why don't you have faith to believe this? These are heavenly elders, not earthly elders. "To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God" (Eph. 3.10). Yet your reject their status, thus rejecting God since they are his elect angels. So these principalities and powers in heavenly places have no power so they can't wear crowns? Angels carry harps, not typically men: "having every one of them harps..." (Rev. 5.8). I think you are being disrespectful to the archangels by you single handedly removing their crowns of authority in 3rd heaven for billions of years. Your attitude is quite the apposite of Paul's, "I charge thee before...the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality" (1 Tim. 5.21). "For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels" (1 Cor. 11.10). The angels are watching us, not 12 men who are still asleep in Abraham's bosom. The saints will be resurrected together. "For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men" (1 Cor. 4.9). "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38.4-7)

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him" (Col. 1.16). So there are thrones in heaven right now, and the saints have not been resurrected yet, but you think these are 12 men in heaven on those thrones with crowns? Makes no sense. The millennial kingdom has not begun yet. The archangels have been here from the beginning of God's creation Job says, and those who sit on thrones have crowns, obviously. No need for a legalistic rule of saying the word "crown" is never used with "angels" otherwise the Trinity would be false according to you. It is enough to accept the fact they sit on thrones, therefore, they have crowns, logically speaking. "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work" (Tit. 3.1). As it is in heaven so it is on earth.

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No I simply believe what the scripture teaches. The jobs of the angels are in Gods hands not mine. They are ministering spirits sent forth to minister.

Your the one who said that lucifer was one of the 24 elders, who then got replaced by Michael. Where did you learn this, demonology class?

I honestly don't know what your problem is. This revealtion is good news of the rapture of the church which happens before the seal judgments are released.

You take the role of an angel since you say you can take up the prayers of the saints. There were 24 archangels. Since Lucifer was the most beautiful angel, but then fell from grace, obviously he would no longer be included with the 24 archangels, just as Judas was no longer one of the 12 disciples. He was replaced by Mattias just as Michael the archangel for Israel replaced Lucifer to maintain the heavenly 24 elders, just as Israel maintained 24 courses of the Levites. Why do you think there would be only 23 archangels? Since no saints are seen in heaven during or before 1st Seal, 2nd Seal, 3rd Seal, 4th Seal which are the past 20 centuries, then why teach falsely? The number of the Church is 7 as in the 7 church periods (Rev. 2 & 3), not 24 or 12. 7 is the number of temporary perfection, whereas 12 is the number of eternal perfection, and 24 is the number of administration. The 24 archangels have not been demoted from their position in the universe. Overcomers have not received their crowns yet.

What is your problem? Why do you keep shutting your mind down to this passage? "The four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 5.8, 8.3-4). It says out of the angels hand, not out of the hands of man.

The good news of salvation and rapture is indeed good, but don't lie to people and say they are in heaven already, or that there is 12 guys in heaven ruling over everything. That's twisted. Not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet (Acts 2.34). Are you practicing some form of necromancy, talking to people who are actually dead thinking they are in heaven?

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This is an ongoing study and requires further prayer. But I reason the golden cup is a mantle of all prayers to be offered up to the Father, as a final harvest of all prayers of all time before the end comes.

Surey you are mad. "And the woman [Roman Church] was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication" (Rev. 17.4). Rev. 5.8 are "golden bowls" not cups. Sounds like you are trying to rationalize your false teaching further. The final harvest is Rev. 14.14-16 not way back in Rev. 5. The latter recounts the cross and authority of our Lord Jesus. The prayers of the saints are being taken up all day every day and Rev. 5 is giving us a glimpse of this heavenly process.

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I give this job to the holy spirit. The scriptures teach the the spirit be maketh intercession for us with inner groanings. Show me where angels take up prayers? If all you have is the revealtion scripture, the one I showed you before then it shows that angels do not intercede for us, but simply carry mantles. No different to the elders who also carry a mantle of pray.

The only failure in life is to not even try, that is guaranteed failure.

Lots of good intentions pave the way to Hell. Don't you get tired of being belligerent, for you asked "where angels take up prayers?" You are rejecting this work of the angels? How asinine. Since the archangels "having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8), who can these be if not archangels? How can you reject this clear word of Scripture? "The smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 8.4). Why is angels interceding for us mutually exclusive of angels taking up the prayers of the saints "out of the angel's hand"? Every day Christians pray to God and angels take up those prayers. How can 12 men do that? Surely, you're mad. Your failure in your life is the delusion of thinking you can take up your own prayers to heaven, thus relying on self-strength not God's way of doing things where the angels take up the prayers of the saints. Why reject the book of Revelation because "out of th angel's hand" are take up the prayers of the saints? This was well conveyed in the Old Testament that burning incense was prayers going up to heaven taken up by the angels, not by men, like Jacob's ladder seeing angels going up and down the ladder. I can see your self-strength hard at work not relying on God's way of doing things. Men's ways are not God's ways. "And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it" (Gen. 28.12).

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eve your tranlsation which says, "they were reedemed" cannot delete this words which you might have missed, which is "and WE shall reign upon the Earth"

So much for the elders of the universe.

wa wa wa waaaaa.

You have misread the Bible horribly. Only the late-dated text of the KJV takes your view. All the other major Bible versions which rely on earlier sources reject your view. "And they sang a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth" (Rev. 5.9,10). "They shall" means not yet. To "ransom men" is to speak of a group that is not themselves. The archangels and angels are talking about "them" not themselves. The angels have been working a long time with God to make this happen. So much for the 24 Elders being 24 men.

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When John was raptured, there is no indication of blood washing him, because he already washed himself clean prior to the rapture.

Where does it say John was raptured physically or resurrected for that matter? 4.2 "Straightway I was in the Spirit"—John was raptured in the spirit, it was not a bodily rapture. "And behold, there was a throne set in heaven"—The throne is the heart of this book, it is also the focus of all things. The first thing to be seen, therefore, is the throne, since all the things which follow proceed from it. This is a different throne from that spoken of in the New Testament epistles. Hebrews 4, for example, speaks of the throne of grace—emphasizing the side of God’s grace. But this is the throne of judgment here—emphasizing the side of God’s righteousness.

By your same argument those redeemed by the blood in Rev. 5.9 who you claim are raptured already would not be saved because it mentions the blood? The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

"A door opened in heaven"—The heavens were opened to Ezekiel (1.1), to the Lord (Matt. 3.16), to Stephen (Acts 7.56), to Peter (Acts 10.11) and to John (Rev. 4.1, 19.11). This is not bodily rapture, so you need to be consistent. Surely something as important as bodily resurrection would have been indicated in John's vision. "And the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me"—It is not a trumpet blowing, but a voice as of a trumpet. "Come up hither"—This word is spoken to John personally; it should not be interpreted as a type of the rapture of the church. "I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter"—This serves as an introduction to the prophecies to follow. That which is to come to pass hasn't happened yet. So no rapture of the Church yet. We see the overcomer saints before the throne in 3rd heaven as early as Rev. 7.9.

(1) If chapters 4 and 5 truly refer to "the things which shall come to pass hereafter", why should such a significant event as the rapture of the church not be mentioned? Rapture is touched upon in chapters 7, 12, 14 and 15 of this book. Why is it not referred to here? Some do suggest that the rapture of the church is implied in the words "Come up hither" (4.1), but are not these words followed immediately by "Straightway I was in the Spirit . . ." (v.2)? The rapture of the church is a bodily rapture, yet here it is in the Spirit. And thus this verse cannot be interpreted as referring to the rapture of the church. How can chapters 2 and 3 speak of the church and there not be a clear word given of her rapture immediately afterwards?

(2) If 4.1 indeed speaks of the rapture of the church, then where is the church seen in chapters 4 and 5? Some people advance the thought that the 24 elders in 4.4,10 and 5.8 represent the church. For the present we need only to ask one question: Why is it that not even one of the 24 elders is mentioned from 19.5 through chapter 22? Is it possible that the church is limited to the time of tribulation and to the enjoyment in the kingdom, but that she will not be heard of in the new heaven and the new earth? How can it be that she is seen at the beginning but she disappears at the end?

(3) Chapter 5 describes the glory which the Lamb receives in heaven. Can we say that the Lord must wait for about two thousand years before He will receive glory?

(4) The praise from every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth spoken of in 5.13 agrees perfectly with what Philippians 2.10 says. Due to His resurrection and ascension and His receiving the Name that is above all names, He is shown in such glory as is described in Philippians (2.9). How, then, can it be said that Revelation 5.13 describes a scene of two thousand years later?

(5) Why should the new song in 5.9 be sung two thousand years later? Has not the work of redemption already been done? Why cannot the new song be sung at once?

(6) "As though it had been slain" (5.6) is, in the original, rendered "as though it had been newly slain"—This clearly proves that this is the scene of the ascension of the Lord. Although the death of the Lord is forever fresh, the word here designates it as being newly slain.

(7) In 4.8 the four living creatures are recorded as saying: "The Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come"—Compare this with 11.17, where the 24 elders are found worshiping God and saying: "O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast"; in this latter instance the words "who is to come" are not said, thus intimating that the return of the Lord cannot be before 4.8 but after 4.8.

(8) In 5.6 it is said that the seven Spirits of God are "sent forth into all the earth"—May we not ask, then, what the Holy Spirit will be doing in the great tribulation as He is sent out into all the earth? We know that the Holy Spirit comes down after the ascension of the Lord Jesus. It is during the dispensation of the church that He is sent out by the Lord.

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The horsmen mark the beginning of the great tribulation.

I don't see why angels take up the prayers of the saints. We pray in Jesus name and the spirit makes intercession for us. I believe that angels worship God and their presence brings various glory of God, but I don't see in scripture them praying or interceding for us. Given their vast numbers such a prayer army would accomplish far greater things, considering that only one angel can eliminate an entire army of men.
Praying opens the door for heaven upon Earth.

Your thoughts betray you. You say that having carnal thought will lose the 1000 year reward. Even though I am not being carnal, yet if I were, Christ would give me the opportunity to repent during the great tribulation and either become beheaded or the remnant, I would be able to be saved and then reign during the 1000 years.
As scripture also teaches plainly in rev 20.

The 2nd to the 5th horsemen represent the past 20 centuries. They are general in nature so you can't specifically apply them to any particular event the past 20 centuries. You can know unequivocally the Seals are the past 20 centuries because "over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth" (Rev. 6.8). Whereas during the Tribulation, "by these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulphur issuing from their mouths" (Rev. 9.18). Does God contradict Himself? No. 1/4th are killed in the past 20 centuries, but during the Tribulation 1/3 are killed.

You don't see why angels take up prayers of the saints? even after the Bible says, "the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand" (Rev. 8.4). Does it say out of man's hands? Why because you "don't see in Scripture them praying or interceding for us" does that mean they don't take up prayers of the saints? You're not making sense. However powerful an angel may be, why does that prevent angels from taking up the prayers of the saints? Your thoughts betray you. How can you not be carnal by misreading Scripture so horribly? Even though it is clear you will not be raptured before the Tribulation because of your carnality who is to say even when you enter the Tribulation you will overcome? You still have a choice even then to remain as you are as a carnal Christian. However, I don't think you are a Christian because you reject Rev. 5.8, 8.4 and rely on self-power thinking you can take up your own prayers to God when the Bible clearly says the angels take up the prayers of the saints. That's one of their jobs.

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The 12 elders are the leaders of the tribes. Their names are written on the gates of new Jerusalem.
The other 12 are the disciples of Jesus . Jesus said know ye not ye shall judge angels?

There are thousands of elders. But all of these elders would admit that the 12 apostles are above them in authority. The other elders and overcomers from every tongue, nation, kindred are around the 24 elders. The fathers of the faith.

Since no man is resurrected yet then then 12 of the 24 elders can't be the leaders fo the 12 tribes of Israel. Since the 24 elders take up prayers of the saints and men can't do this, obviously the none of the 24 elders are men. The 12 tribes are are after the 12 sons of Jacob. Where are these 12 sons called Elders? Certainly there were more than just 12. Where are the 12 Apostles called Elders? Elders were appointed by Apostles. If there were 12 Apostles in heaven right now they would not be called Elders since Apostles appoint Elders. The Bible says they will be kings and priests not elders (Rev. 20.4-6). If there are 24 men as Elders in heaven right now since you say John is already resurrected, how can that be, because then how did he finish the rest of the book of Revelation on earth? As you can see, nothing you say makes any sense at all. John is writing what he sees in his vision.

The 12 leaders of Israel are written on the gates because that is where God's kingdom was built on in the OT, same as the 12 Apostles for the NT so their names are written on the foundation of the walls. Don't you know the angels now reign and archangels as kings, but they will be under man in eternity future? Who can deny the 12 Apostles are overcomers? And who would think the 12 Patriarchs and 12 Aposles have the power to take up the prayers of saints?

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I don't see why Michael replaced Lucifer. Lucifer is termed as an anointed cherub, who was beatyful and plays harps. Michael is a warrior archangel who does war. Where in scripture is lucifer an archangel? Where does it show Michael replacing him?
These extra biblical sources you are using, what books are they?

I don't see how you could think that the empty role does not get filled after Lucifer fell. If a CEO of a company loses his job because unethical business practices, does the company remain without a CEO? Michale is called an archangel. One should put two and two together since he is the only archangel mentioned in Scripture and Lucifer's spot went vacant and the 24 courses remain and because of the fall of the angels God chose to bring in His kingdom through Israel (Michael is the archangel of Israel, how can you think Lucifer's spot remains vacant? Doesn't make sense what you are saying. You even said as an archangel he "plays harps" just like in Revelation 5.8, "having every one of them harps." Since when do all men have harps? Harps are clearly a picture of angels holding harps.

Lucifer was created the most beautiful angel and you think he doesn't qualify to be an archangel before he fell? Nothing you say makes any sense.

I am not using extra Biblical sources. What extra Biblical sources are you using that claim men bring up the prayers of the saints up Jacob's ladder?