Did the Discpiles Tell the Truth?

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02-03-2011, 10:14 PM
Reckoning

Did the Discpiles Tell the Truth?

"Since all naturalistic explanations are impossible, then no naturalistic explanation can account for their testimony."

They lied.

Also, the argument that Atheists (and everyone but the right type of Christian) send themselves to hell is absolutely rediculous. Here is a simple analogy. Someone points a gun at you, threatening to shoot you and demands all of your money. You decline, and get shot and die. By your logic they committed suicide. Lets change the senario a bit... God is threatening me (an Atheist) with hell, demanding that I believe and worship him. Do I really send myself to hell? just as they killed themselves?
02-03-2011, 11:09 PM
Faithful

Since the disciples were martyred for their eyewitness testimony and people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, then they truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Since Jesus is proven to be God and He said who goes to Hell, those who refuse who He really is and the ransom He paid, then whether you want to admit or not, whether you shut your mind down to God or not, you send yourself to Hell, because in effect you are saying you want to be eternally separated from God in Hell. How you choose to express your independency from God is your choice but doesn't change the fact you are going to Hell.

How is it the disciple who is unwilling to change his beliefs at the point of death is committing suicide? Standing up for the truth is more important. The disciples were true to their eyewitness testimony. They are martyrs and shall be rewarded.

You really do send yourself to Hell since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, and you can't overturn the evidence, then the evidence says you want to go to Hell. So you shall. You are committing suicide which is why you brought up suicide in the first place because in your conscience somewhere you know you are committing suicide, so you wanted to try to equate what happened to the disciples as being what you are doing to yourself. But they didn't commit suicide. They were killed for staying true their eyewitness testimony.

Nobody is putting a knife to your neck like those who killed the disciples. God simply gives you the choice. He says you are without excuse since nature proves God's existence (Rom. 1.20). So you are really committing suicide or causing your eternity in Hell. You'll be resurrected for Hell, never cease to exist, and be reminded for eternity of your wrong choice, but it will be too painful for you repent to God than remain in your hostility so that's why you remain in Hell for eternity.

I realize this is hard for you to understand, but it's really clear to me. Think of two realms God has created. He has created a domain for those who want to be eternally separated from Him and a place for those who want to be with the Lamb of God at the center of the New City. Now it stands to reason the New City will be better, more vibrant, active, fulfilling, loving, peaceful, friendly and joyful than where you are going because Heaven is better than Hell since to better with God is better than to be without.

My advice would be just be honest with yourself. Stop pretending like its not going to happen or that it's not what you want. If Hell is what you want then admit it. Jesus said if you are not for Him you are against Him. Therefore, admit you want to go to Hell because it is truly what you want. You truly in your heart of hearts want to be eternally separates from God. So you shall be.
02-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Reckoning

Rebuttal

There were Muslims willing to fly planes into buildings for their beliefs. Yet you think they are wrong. I have shown your own argument is invalid, since belief to the point of death can still be wrong. (Unless you think they are right, but I’ll assume you don’t (correct me if I’m wrong)).

I do not send myself to hell. No one does. Just as… wait I’ve made this argument before in the above post. They one about being threatened and refusing to cooperate is your own fault. “Since Jesus is proven to be God…” Please share your proof, or expand with details… even one.

The third sentence is also not valid. Atheism does not threaten with a hell, yet Christianity does. Your argument is invalid.

Again go into detail about these proofs.

Why would God put anyone in hell for any reason? Is my non-belief such a crime? Is the fact I do not kill, steal, rape, lie, cheat or any of these things I will spend eternity in hell… for the finite crime of not believing in this particular sect of Christianity…

Might I add I act this way NOT out of fear of hell and NOT for the promise of heaven? How is this not a show of my character…? Yet out of fear or greed you believe in Jesus.

I can show a world without God is good. Look at Japan. 60% atheist, yet they have very low rape rates. There is much more rape In the USA (I will assume you live there), with 60% Christian population.

In a way you are right. I do not believe God is even there. But if he showed himself to me, I would just turn away. God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent tyrant.
02-06-2011, 07:03 PM
Faithful

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Originally Posted by Reckoning

There were Muslims willing to fly planes into buildings for their beliefs. Yet you think they are wrong. I have shown your own argument is invalid, since belief to the point of death can still be wrong. (Unless you think they are right, but I’ll assume you don’t (correct me if I’m wrong)).

Where is the evidence Muslims are right? I have shown you your arguments are invalid, since you are misunderstanding the argument. Belief to the point of death just confirms they truly believed it. There needs be something more. With the disciples there was something more. With the Muslim suicide mass murderers they had no evidence for what they were doing. It was blind faith like atheism. They were simply operating out of their jealousy of the west, hatred of Israel, and racism against Caucasians and Jews. Not to mention they are too selfish to give their lives to Christ.

The disciples were different. They were operating from their eyewitness testimony of believing they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. They recall Jesus claiming He was God and would resurrect Himself, and He did exactly what He said He would do. This is the best evidence you could ask for. In the past two thousand years nobody has been able to come up with a naturalistic explanation to account for it. Therefore it is true, since if there was a naturalistic explanation it shouldn't be too hard to come up with an explanation.

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I do not send myself to hell. No one does. Just as… wait I’ve made this argument before in the above post. They one about being threatened and refusing to cooperate is your own fault. “Since Jesus is proven to be God…” Please share your proof, or expand with details… even one.

Anyone who goes to Hell sends themselves there ultimately. For example, Satan shows he will never repent, so he sends himself to Hell. God of course, casts him into Hell, but it was because that was Lucifer's choice just as it is your choice, so you have nobody to blame but yourself. Free will is not truly free if you don't have the choice to be eternally separated from God.

The proof has been given many times, why ask for it again? As was said before many times, since nature can't always have existed, it needs a cause outside of itself, that is, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God or the uncreated Creator for those who want try to mince words.

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The third sentence is also not valid. Atheism does not threaten with a hell, yet Christianity does. Your argument is invalid.

Where did I say in the third sentence Atheism threatens with Hell? And Christianity doesn't threaten you with Hell but rather, God gives you a choice to go there instead of the New City. Your argument is invalid.

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Why would God put anyone in hell for any reason? Is my non-belief such a crime? Is the fact I do not kill, steal, rape, lie, cheat or any of these things I will spend eternity in hell… for the finite crime of not believing in this particular sect of Christianity…

Your non-belief is the desire to be eternally separated from God. There is no greater sin. A person who commits a crime later could be saved if He received what Jesus did on the cross for him. He has eternal blessings and you don't. Even lying once, lusting once sends you to Hell. This sin has to be dealt with righteously by God.

Since you refuse to allow your sins to be placed upon Him on the cross, you carry those sins with you into Hell for all eternity. How truly sad for you that this is the kind of person you want to be. Such is a despicable life. These are not finite crimes, for they remain unpunished adequately if you did not spend eternity in Hell along with your desire to be eternally separated from God. God can have no sin in the New City with those who love Him. Do you really think you belong with God when you eternally reject Him? That's quite asinine.

Just like we have to lock up some people in jail for life, you need to be locked up in Hell for all eternity, otherwise society and God would be evil to let you out and do harm to others. God cannot violate His righteous nature and holy character.

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Might I add I act this way NOT out of fear of hell and NOT for the promise of heaven? How is this not a show of my character…? Yet out of fear or greed you believe in Jesus.

How you act is irrelevant for your salvation, because salvation is not by works. No man can be saved by his good deeds, lest any man should boast. You are fearful of Hell, it doesn't bother you; you're quite at home when you go to Hell. Whereas I accepted God's verdict of man's condition we are sinners in need of salvation. Sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, and there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved through Jesus.

It's because I accepted our real condition humbly before the Lord, but you exalt self acting like you are the center of the universe. Like you Satan has no reverence or fear of the Lord either, no humility and humbleness before Him. People don't like people like that, who are arrogant, pompous, self-indulgent, full of the pride of life. How could God? You're without God's love because you prefer your own selfishness and not the love of God. It is out of greed, certainly, in this world that you are the way you are. Whereas Christians we point you not to ourselves but to Christ, for He not only created you, but only He can save you for He is the only man who was ever sinless. Praise the Lord! Fully God and fully man!

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I can show a world without God is good. Look at Japan. 60% atheist, yet they have very low rape rates. There is much more rape In the USA (I will assume you live there), with 60% Christian population.

Less than 1% of the population is actually born-again in USA, so less than 1% are Christian. According to the Bible the US and EU are political Rome, Babylon that will be destroyed (Rev. 18). You can see how God hates fake Christians. He would rather you be an Atheist than be a false Christian, for then your eternity in Hell will be less punishable.

To those who have heard the gospel of salvation yet turn away from it, God's judgment is greater: "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

There is a trade off in a society of great wealth in this world, for to have such wealth, morality has to drop. That's just the way it is under an evil monetary system that is moving to a one world currency.

The actual reason for the low rape rate in Japan is it is the oldest population in the world. They don't have an sex drive anymore. United States' population is still quite young relative to the rest of the world and growing younger so their sex drive is rampant.

The real question is would Jesus do that? Of course not. In Egypt over 80% believe in stoning a women to death if she is an adulterer even if she was raped. How evil. That's one way to get the rape rate down, but it's an evil way to do it.

You really have to look at the makeup of each country. For example, countries that are Calvinist or believe you can lose salvation (so salvation is by works) like in Sweden (Lutherans), shows they are unsaved tares trying to look like saved wheat. Sweden has a high rape rate.

But really all you need to know is, would Jesus do that? Of course not. So you can be sure anyone who claims to be a Christian and then rapes someone? Obviously, they are not born-again. Obviously!

Now consider atheistic countries. The Chinese government kills 10,000 people a year for crimes. Stalin killed 40 million, Mao killed 70 million and Hitler 30 million. There is virtually no Atheist, Hindu or Muslim charities in the world. They are almost all Christian.

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In a way you are right. I do not believe God is even there. But if he showed himself to me, I would just turn away. God is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent tyrant.

So what's the problem, you admit you reject God even though He is proven, since you can't overturn the proof, so why fight it? Continue on your way to Hell as you wish, why make such a fuss about it? It's because you still yet have some residual of a conscience in your spirit of God-consciousness, but you are fighting it tooth and nail.

You sound like you are projecting your own condition onto God. He is not like you. He is infinitely greater than you, smarter than you, more loving than you, empathetic than you and righteous than you, but go ahead if you wish as you keep trying to be like the Devil exalting yourself above God. But I wouldn't advise it. When you sinning bearing false witness it only exposes you further for the sinner than you are who does not want to be saved.

God is the God of evidence! Since you can't overturn the evidence yet don't repent to the cross as helpless sinner, then you are living a lie. You're delusional. Some might even call you insane and they would not be far off.
02-07-2011, 04:44 AM
Reckoning

Okay, this is not going anywhere that I can see. So I'm just going to compare our beliefs and see which one is insane.

You claim there is a God. (and a bunch of other things)

I say, I do not believe that.

You then say I will, when I die, be sent to a place of eternal damnation, because I did not share your belief, by what you believe.

And you are calling me insane?

Hitler was an Atheist? Okay, I will ask you a question, to test the validity of your assertion. What words were engraved onto the Nazi belt buckles?
02-07-2011, 05:27 AM
Faithful

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoning

Okay, this is not going anywhere that I can see. So I'm just going to compare our beliefs and see which one is insane.

You claim there is a God. (and a bunch of other things)

There is only one uncreated Creator "who alone" (1 Tim. 6.16) was "from everlasting" (Neh. 9.5).

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I say, I do not believe that.

You should believe it if you care for logic, reality and truth, since the evidence is conclusive. If it was not conclusive then surely you could find fault with it.

Infinite regress can't be true, because you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. And nature can't start up from nothing, for that which does not exist can't cause anything. It doesn't exist. Therefore, necessarily the universe needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call the uncreated Creator otherwise known as God.

We know who God is. He is none other than the Trinity, because over 99% of scholars who do their thesis or peer review journal work on the resurrection claim, agree for good reasons the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. Since group hallucinations and all the other attempted naturalistic explanations fail to account for the origin of their beliefs, then what we thought impossible must be true that Jesus is exactly who He said He was, the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus prayed to the Father and when He ascended, He gave the Holy Spirit. Only Jesus could do the perfect will of the Father as only God the Son could. Hence, we see the 3 forms of God here. So "let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name [only God can have a name above every name]: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

Humble yourself before God who is so complex the very best way we can understand Him as a Triune Being.

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You then say I will, when I die, be sent to a place of eternal damnation, because I did not share your belief, by what you believe.

You are going to Hell because it is proven you are going to Hell, not because you may have had a tit for tat with someone. Jesus herein has been proven to be God. He spoke on Hell more than anyone and said, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3.18).

Condemned where? "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13.42). You would rather be in the lake of fire than be with God. What an evil person you are!

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And you are calling me insane?

Absolutely.

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Hitler was an Atheist? Okay, I will ask you a question, to test the validity of your assertion. What words were engraved onto the Nazi belt buckles?

Dunno. I do know this that he may have used the word "God" to appeal to the masses, but he lived according to a law of his own making, the law of atheistic naturalistic selection, just like your father Stalin who killed 40 million and Mao who killed 70 million. They are red blooded atheists. You are all bred from the same cloth of natural selectionism rather than abiding in God's redemptive design in which everyone will get their due in due time.

Here's lots of quotes about how much Hitler hated Christianity like you. You guys would have made great friends, probably would have worn the same belt buckle, and committed suicide together because it doesn't matter anyway in an atheistic world. Everyone just ceases to exist anyhow. His morals in atheism are no worse than anyone else.

http://biblocality.com/forums/showthread.php?2901

Sometimes when I post it feels like a fine piece of art or beautiful sculpture.
02-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Reckoning

You do realise the bible does not count as proof? You seem to think a vague quote from he bible seems to trump anything, but the truth is the bible was written by humans. (as well as the Koran, Torah, etc)

Also, do you realise the people dieing for their beliefs always believe in God? And still you call me insane... Killing yourself (or geting yourself killed) for promises of gifts beyond the grave, would be quite insane.

And no, I would not have the words "God with us" on my belt buckle, as an Atheist that would be silly.
02-07-2011, 02:43 PM
Faithful

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reckoning

You do realise the bible does not count as proof? You seem to think a vague quote from he bible seems to trump anything, but the truth is the bible was written by humans. (as well as the Koran, Torah, etc)

You do realize the Bible counts as proof for it is the primary source as the most famous lawyer in history said, "Every document apparently ancient coming from the proper repository or custody and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise."

The Bible was inspired by God through the hearts and spirits of His chosen vessels to write down the word of God as the Holy Spirit led them. The same goes for the Torah. The Koran is not, since obviously it is wrong when it claims Jesus didn't die on the cross. Very easy test!

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Also, do you realise the people dieing for their beliefs always believe in God? And still you call me insane... Killing yourself (or geting yourself killed) for promises of gifts beyond the grave, would be quite insane.

People are always being killed for believing in God, I agree. Nobody is ever trying to kill an atheist because atheists don't stand for anything that offends a person enough to want to kill them. Atheists are "dullards" and act like animals possessed by their "subterranean motivations". What happens is atheists throughout history have been jealous of the higher consciousness and conscience of believers, so you try to kill us. Ya, I'd say that's really insane. Christians don't get ourselves killed. Death is no blessing. Actually, the gifts are now. For example there is the gift of teaching or the gift of prophesying. And we whom are saved have the gift of faith, forgiveness of sins and eternal life which is easily proven by the fact that Jesus proved He is God. That's should be good enough for any of us.

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And no, I would not have the words "God with us" on my belt buckle, as an Atheist that would be silly.

Like I said, if he happened to have such words which I trust you are going to provide some evidence, it's common knowledge men in politics and power use God's name in vain because it appeals to the masses, but what religion? He certainly wasn't Christian since I showed you dozens of quotes of his hatred against God. He wasn't a Muslim or a Hindu. I guess he made up a god in his own image but has long since died out which is what Atheists do effectively making themselves out to be God. God does not die out, but He first establishes His authority on the cross and by His resurrection, then He returns with power to reign with a "rod of iron". Hitler practiced natural selectionism, trying to wipe out races of people. If it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it's probably an atheist.

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." (Ps. 14.1) That fool committed suicide. Atheists have the highest suicide rate among all groups in society as you would expect because their world-view is the same end for everyone into meaningless nothingness. Life without purpose is not a life worth living.

The epitome of arrogance is the view of atheists to claim we who are minute in the universe have purpose, but the grand universe has no purpose. Nothing could be more arrogant and obnoxious, and something that belligerent should be questioned with all our hearts and and all our spirit, soul and body as refuse from evil men.
02-07-2011, 05:26 PM
Reckoning

Okay, we can debate on Hitler's beliefs forever, bringing quotes, etc, but the fact you brought up the fact Religion is used to control the masses I think that is not a point in favor of religion at all. But I won't bring any more quotes or facts as the claim that he could have used it to control people is valid but still not good for you. But even if someone is an Atheist (all your other examples) does their non belief in God make them do their crimes, as does their non belief in Zeus or fairies, or anything else YOU don't believe in.

History, I'm glad you brought that up. Now for most of 0 BC ~ 1700 AD, Christians were the biggest power (Europue). They used the same bible, had the same savior, same trinity, everything. Yet, they organised Witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition, prosecuted Galileo for showing that the earth was not at the centre of the universe, Giordano Bruno also branded a heretic for his 'Infinite Universe" belief. The worst part about Bruno was.... its only took them 400 years to figure out he was right. So who is killing whom?

Also the Crusades, the hiding of pedophile preists and so on and so on. I should mention in the Crusades the Christians lost. So much for being the "right belief". Also the worst Crusade ws the 'Children Crudase', were many thousands of clidren were forced to fight. They were just capture and sold as slaves.

You would expect an organisation based around what you believe as well to have a better track record. But you have admitted that it is used to control the masses. Well, that is what its used for, not to enlighten, not to save people from damnation, but to get them to do what they want.

Well, I do not think that my life is meaningless. In context of the universe probably, but the universe in context with me is also meaningless. In the end, I give my life meaning, not anything else. Well, thats nothing new, you know I am independant of God, who has not shown himself to me. If you need God to get through life, by all means you have every right to have your beliefs. But, when the Christians were in charge, they externimated all opposition, yet in this secular society we live in, people have the freedom to choose what they believe. This is the way for everyone to be happy and life a peaceful existance, not to have holy wars on whos belief is right. Im just the middle man, looking all all reigions and saying your all wrong.

But some more questions, When you get into heaven, what then? Doesn't existence become meaningless then? You have no reason to do anything. I suppose it will be revealed to you then...
But I live my life as if it were my only one.

Oh a thought experiment just came to me. What if you paid someone to kill you? You would go to heaven and skip all this waiting for no reason, as this life is only used to get into the next one. I suppose that would count as suicide since you know about it though... but what about engaging in very dangerous activities? Or just run into the wilderness and survive for as long as possible? Just a thought.

But in the end your beliefs got a lot of people killed a long time ago, and thanks to science and reason, we have moved out of the dark oppressive age of religion, and life is better than ever.

But one more Hitler quote...
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
02-07-2011, 11:11 PM
Faithful

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Originally Posted by Reckoning

Okay, we can debate on Hitler's beliefs forever, bringing quotes, etc, but the fact you brought up the fact Religion is used to control the masses I think that is not a point in favor of religion at all. But I won't bring any more quotes or facts as the claim that he could have used it to control people is valid but still not good for you. But even if someone is an Atheist (all your other examples) does their non belief in God make them do their crimes, as does their non belief in Zeus or fairies, or anything else YOU don't believe in.

There really is no debate. The religion of hatred against Christianity was the religion of Hitler, the very same religion you espouse as an atheist. This is not good for you. Distinguish between false religion and true religion. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world" (James 1.27).

Does your belief in atheism make you do crimes? Yes as proven, since there is a higher percentage of atheists in prison than there is in the general populace. Naturally you will be more crime prone because everyone ends up the same anyway, so it doesn't really matter in your world-view. Satan plants those seeds of thought in your mind. And if you believe in a false God you will have similar problems associated to the evil spirit in whatever it teaches. For example, believing in Zeus or fairies that are not evidenced as atheists believe in the delusional world of infinite regress or something from nothing, sets the stage to beget more sin because once you accept a lie, you are open to more lies that also don't need to be proved in your faith when you rationalize in your flesh.

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History, I'm glad you brought that up. Now for most of 0 BC ~ 1700 AD, Christians were the biggest power (Europue). They used the same bible, had the same savior, same trinity, everything. Yet, they organised Witch burnings, the Spanish Inquisition, prosecuted Galileo for showing that the earth was not at the centre of the universe, Giordano Bruno also branded a heretic for his 'Infinite Universe" belief. The worst part about Bruno was.... its only took them 400 years to figure out he was right. So who is killing whom?

You're still making the mistake of assuming people are Christians who are not. Remember, according to the Bible Christians are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32) so if it is the big tares trying to look like saved wheat in Matthew 13 then you know it is not Christian. It only has the appearance of being so, so discern the difference. It is a great sin when we break bread in His name and not discern the body.

There were no Christians in 0 BC. What a weird thing to say. We were first called Christians at Antioch after Jesus died in 33 AD and grew slowly. In the second century we were martyred greatly in the Smyrna church period and thrown to the lions. The Roman Church is not Christian for they claim the 1000 years is now, that a person can lose salvation, paying for indulgences, sinless Mary, infant baptism, transubstantiation, intermediary priesthood, popery, and a whole host of other problems. They killed more Christians than they killed atheists, e.g. Anabaptists and OSAS Arminians. Almost all Roman Catholics are unsaved as are most in other denominations which is so very easy to prove. Again, all you need to do is ask the question, Would Jesus do that? Of course not. Since the Bible taught the earth was round, what matter is it what the Roman Church teaches? The Bible calls her the great harlot that sits on the beast of nations (Rev. 17) and makes them drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (14.8)? The way a Christian responds to the heresy of infinite regress theory is we let you believe what you want however illogical it is. You're committing the logical fallacy of false association which is breaking the ten commandments sinning bearing false witness.

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Also the Crusades, the hiding of pedophile preists and so on and so on. I should mention in the Crusades the Christians lost. So much for being the "right belief". Also the worst Crusade ws the 'Children Crudase', were many thousands of clidren were forced to fight. They were just capture and sold as slaves.

You are committing the sin of logical fallacy again. Boring. This is why atheists are called "dullards". God separates Church and state because the state is utterly corrupt. This is what happened in the Pergamum church period in the 4th and 5th centuries.

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You would expect an organisation based around what you believe as well to have a better track record. But you have admitted that it is used to control the masses. Well, that is what its used for, not to enlighten, not to save people from damnation, but to get them to do what they want.

It is true under atheist communism your religion tries to control the masses by slaughtering millions, but in Christianity how can we control anything if state and Church are separated? You're not making sense. We who are in Christ are sojourners, a little flock. This is true Christianity.

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Well, I do not think that my life is meaningless. In context of the universe probably, but the universe in context with me is also meaningless. In the end, I give my life meaning, not anything else. Well, thats nothing new, you know I am independant of God, who has not shown himself to me. If you need God to get through life, by all means you have every right to have your beliefs. But, when the Christians were in charge, they externimated all opposition, yet in this secular society we live in, people have the freedom to choose what they believe. This is the way for everyone to be happy and life a peaceful existance, not to have holy wars on whos belief is right. Im just the middle man, looking all all reigions and saying your all wrong.

Since you admit "life is meaningless" to you, you can see the problem why there is more sin among atheists. God showed Himself to you in Christ and proven by His resurrection. Without God you will die sooner than you would otherwise, because you don't have the Holy Spirit in your spirit, but the evil spirit. Not only will you die sooner than you would otherwise, but you will incur the second death which is Hell to be eternally separated from God. Satan tries to use Christianity, but since Jesus wouldn't do that and didn't, He is quite unlike Muhammad, the Roman Church and Atheists who were killing machines when it suited their purpose. Except for John the Greater who was imprisoned all the original disciples were murdered. That's Christianity. People such as yourself are jealous of us, so you try to kill us. We are martyred yet will be rewarded. I am just a disciple of Jesus telling you the truth where your mistaken assumptions lie. There is no mediator among men save Jesus Christ Himself.

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But some more questions, When you get into heaven, what then? Doesn't existence become meaningless then? You have no reason to do anything. I suppose it will be revealed to you then... But I live my life as if it were my only one.

God said nobody knows all the wonderful things He has planned for us who love Him. Why would life be meaningless with such a perfect and vibrant environment? You don't need evil to have purpose. That's another one of your mindless mistaken assumptions. I wouldn't even say your life in Hell for eternity is going to be meaningless but it will be greatly restricted from the freedom those who are saved have.

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Oh a thought experiment just came to me. What if you paid someone to kill you? You would go to heaven and skip all this waiting for no reason, as this life is only used to get into the next one. I suppose that would count as suicide since you know about it though... but what about engaging in very dangerous activities? Or just run into the wilderness and survive for as long as possible? Just a thought.

Suicide is the surest way to get to Hell. And nobody goes to Heaven right when they die. We are resurrected together (1 Thess. 4.14-18) which gives us comfort. Christians follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in agreement with the word of God, whereas you do things that are driven by the evil spirit in your spirit's intuition and conscience. That's why you say so many dumb things without thinking. You come across as a zombie for Satan.

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But in the end your beliefs got a lot of people killed a long time ago, and thanks to science and reason, we have moved out of the dark oppressive age of religion, and life is better than ever.

I am glad you can't show that. Science continues to prove God exists and Jesus is God.

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But one more Hitler quote... “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Since you know killing Jews is wrong, then you know Hitler worshiped Satan whom he called his Lord, just like Atheists killed millions of Christians in China in the 20th century or Stalin in the Soviet Union. You're all bread from the same cloth, because your motto is natural selection. Remember, there is only one God. All the others are false just like Atheism is false since nature can't always have existed or start up from nothing. There are many ways to be delusional.

Hope this helps.