Musnderstanding Enoch and Elijah
Re: Word4Dummies
http://www.youtube.com/user/Word4Dummies
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Let us see what happened to Enoch.
Hebrew 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
Hebrew 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off..
Hebrew tells us that "These all died in faith", and it included Enoch. He was translated, meaning, his death was not shown to his family and followers. Why? Human response is to worship the body of the prophet. That is idolalarty. Israel and elsewhere around the world, we could see the tombs of great men and woman of Yahweh, Jew, Moslems , Hindu, Catholics or Protestant alike.
To be translated is to be taken from one place on earth to another place on earth and the Scripture tells us that Enoch died and not received the promises.
However much may be true what you said about idolatry, the fact remains there is no way to get around these verses that Enoch was raptured alive unless you molest the Scriptures with your flesh. There is no rule that demands being taken is to be taken to another place on earth. Obviously, the saints are to be taken "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in Third Heaven at the first rapture, so they are not transported to another place on earth.
"Enoch was translated that he should not see death" (Heb. 11.5) so how do you come up with he saw death after the verse said he should not see death? The "these all died" (v.13) refers to those who were not saved or who did not overcometh unto rewards: "a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (v.6). "All these faithful ones died without receiving what God had promised them" (v.13), and "a whole nation came from this one man, Abraham" (v.12). Though faithful they were not translated, raptured alive, like Enoch was; like those who will be raptured alive at the first rapture (Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10) or last trumpet (1 Cor. 15.23,50-51; 1 Thess. 4.15-17).
Talk about altering God's word because you have no faith: "It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--'suddenly he disappeared because God took him.' But before he was taken up, he was approved as pleasing to God" (Heb. 11.5).
Clearly we are told Enoch never saw death. "For God took him" (Gen. 5.24), otherwise it would have said "He went to rest". Do you realize you are calling Moses and Paul liars who wrote these words?
Scripture tells us Enoch received the promise: he "was translated that he should not see death" (Heb. 11.15).
According to Hebrews 9, “it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment” (v.27). Moses was dead once, how then could he die again? Moses should therefore not be included. In the apocryphal writings of John, Enoch and Elijah will come.
The rapture of Enoch and Elijah is a foretaste of the rapture of the Church. I count at least 12 raptures in the Bible in varying forms,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/12raptures.htm
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Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Deuteronomy 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
The devil wanted to make known the grave of Moses and Michael stop him or else people would make idolatry out of the grave of Moses.
The point here is that Michael did not rail against Satan, for as a matter of authority, Lucifer was the greatest angel, similar to how the sons of thunder were being unrighteous pronouncing hellfire upon someone which was not for them to do because it was against God's will. Likewise, it was not Michael's place to rail against Satan.
“But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee” (Jude 9). Why? Because at one time God had made Lucifer the chief of the archangels; and Michael, being one of the archangels, had been under his authority. Later Michael, in obedience to God, sought the body of Moses because one day Moses was to be raised from the dead (possibly at the Mount of Transfiguration). When Michael was hindered by Satan, he could, in a rebellious spirit, have dealt with that rebellious one, Satan, by opening his mouth and reviling him. But he dared not do so. All he said was, “The Lord rebuke thee.” (With men it is a different story, since God has never placed men under the authority of Satan. Though once we fell into his rule, we were never under his authority.)
Michael was instructed by God to get the body of Moses later, yet you claim this would have been idolatry. You're accusing God. You miss the whole point of the matter which was that of authority and submission. It was Satan who didn't want you to have the body of Moses, yet you call that a good thing.
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Deuteronomy 34:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send.
Those fifty strong men knew better what does it mean to be translated, not up to heaven itself but to other place on earth so people will not know where the body of Elijah was when he died.
Your reading makes no sense. Firstly, that is 2 Kings 2.16 not Deut. 34.16. There is no verse Deut. 34.16. These 50 men conjectured, because their flesh was not willing to accept what Elisha told them that Elijah was raptured alive. "Perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has left him on some mountain" (2 Kings 2.16). Of course they didn't believe Elisha when Elisha said Elijah was raptured alive, but they were wrong. You are praising them when God is judging them. Is Satan your father? "Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2.11).
"As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between them, separating them, and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven. Elisha saw it and cried out, 'My father! My father! The chariots and charioteers of Israel!' And as they disappeared from sight, Elisha tore his robe in two" (vv.11-12). You are expressing you have no faith God can and did do this.
Some interesting thoughts. How could a man know he is going to die that very day when he is as fit as a fiddle, traveling from one place to the next with Elisha? He would not be in the condition to do that walking and talking so well. But he can know if he is going to be translated, raptured alive, if God gives Him this revelation. For example, I know I am going to be raptured Sept. 14, 2015 on the Feast of Trumpets "before the throne and before the Lamb" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts. "The group of prophets from Bethel came to Elisha and asked him, 'Did you know that the LORD is going to take your master away from you today?' 'Quiet!' Elisha answered. 'Of course I know it'" (2 Kings 2.3,5).
"As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between them, separating them, and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2.11). These words give clear indication, they were talking, walking and communicating healthily. No sign of impending death. For anyone to read this verse as suggesting death will twist the Scriptures to no end as Satan would have you. Sin begets sin and the verdict is rendered (Rev. 22.18,19).
"And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day?" (2 Kings 2.3) Obviously, they had a wrong understanding of God's will. "No,' Elisha said, "don't send them" (v.16) because Elisha knew they would not find him since he was raptured alive. "Elisha was still at Jericho when they returned. 'Didn't I tell you not to go?' he asked" (v.18). After the first miracle for any who struggled to believe, Elisha performed two more miracles. He fixed the water (v.21) and the 42 members of a gang were killed for mocking Elisha (v.24), the greatest prophet of the day. You just don't do that without consequences. But you are doing the same thing three millennia later, calling Elisha a liar. Shame on you.
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1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Because of the transgression of Adam, all men die without exception. Christ Jesus was the firstfruits of them who died. If Enoch and Elijah are enjoying their time in Heaven right now, then, Christ Jesus is not the firstfruits of those who died. And the Scripture cannot be broken. This also applies to Mary, mother of Jesus and Mohammed.
There is exception, but very very rare exceptions like Enoch and Elijah. You wouldn't want to be a legalist considering what has already been said. All born of the flesh is flesh, including Mary. Mary is the mother of Muhammad? Are you a Muslim? What a weird thing to say. The translation of Enoch and Elijah is not to 3rd Heaven but some other place, because of what Acts 2 says, "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand" (v.34). How can a man after God's own heart not be resurrected to Heaven if Enoch, Elijah and Moses (at transfiguration) are? Thus, we can conclude they are raptured yet not to 3rd Heaven. Logic dictates this. They are some place in the heavens whom Enoch and Elijah shall return from as the Two Witnesses, but since Moses has already died and we are appointed once to die, he will not be return during the Tribulation period, but rather when Jesus returns with His holy myriads of saints (Jude 14,15). Amen. Perhaps all this time Enoch and Elijah have been preparing for this event and Jesus has been instructing them how to conduct themselves for 1260 days (they died before the 24 months of the 7th Trumpet).
Do you know why you are pathetic? Because you contend so hard, previously, for people living 500 and 900 years of age, but you can't accept the simple rapture of someone. O ye of no faith. People never lived hundreds of years of age in the Old Testament. Rather the person with the amazing age was a summary of a number of individuals over a span of time, similar to how the six days sum up the period of restoration. One individual was the representative figure of the group or the message to be spiritually communicated. We known many cultures in ancient history used this same approach to speak honorably of their ancestors. It was a particular genre or way of speaking. It's not false. They were summing up a particular line. So it is acceptable to still add up the ages in the Old Testament to come to 4004 BC to when the first Adamic man was born. Just like Jesus who is God could be born into the world, God the Father can create the first sinless Adamic man by placing the seed into the ovary of a pre-Adamic woman to produce a living soul made in God's image. Amen.
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Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
But where did the idea of mortal men going to heaven? We need to go back to the fall of Eve.
What is Eve response to Lucifer?
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
So what did Lucifer said?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
You're misusing this verse for 1 Thess. 4 says, "Then we which are alive and left shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v.17).
There, obviously, are some who will be translated, taken up, raptured alive, according to God's will, yet you accuse them of claiming they are just following Satan by saying they "shall not surely die". You are accusing the saints and the hope of the Church. Satan accuses the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10) so you do your father's bidding. Death is no blessing. Matt. 24.40-41,42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 all provide a condition for first rapture, that if you are alive at the first rapture, you can escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world, if you keep the word of His patience, are watchful, prayerful and keep the conduct of Matthew 5-7. Ultimately this is God's decision, but we are all capable through God's mercy and grace to "overcometh". We are all called to "overcometh" in the 7 church periods of Revelation 2 & 3.
These are not so much exceptions as they are God's desire to rapture a person alive. Satan is twisting the fact through you by saying you will be like God if you do this thing God says not to do in the Garden of Eden of wanting to be raptured alive. You're relating two unrelated things Satanically. Satan is the author of confusion. Rapture is about being received to God, but eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is moving ahead of God's leading. It is not that God doesn't want to us to have such knowledge, but He doesn't want us to acquire such knowledge ahead of His guiding light. "Word4Dummies" you are not born-again. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you may give your life to Christ one day.
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What did Yahweh command?
Gen 2:17 ..for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So what did Lucifer lied to Eve?
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
To be like as gods is to enjoy the life in heaven after you die.
To believe that people go to heaven after they die is a lie from Lucifer himself. Only Christ Jesus, the firstfruits of those who died, was in the right hand of Yahweh and nobody else. It takes the resurrection of the just and unjust for all who died before Christ Jesus death on the cross.
Christians are not sinning knowing we have eternal life and shall never die--die here means spiritual death not annihilation. Adam and Eve did not physically die the moment when they ate of the fruit they were not suppose to eat.
"Ye shall be as gods" (Gen. 3.5) is not to enjoy life in heaven with God at all. Rather it is to be on par with God not needing to depend on Him, having your own realm and way without God. Of course God says in the Bible there are no gods before Him, beside or after Him, that they are just idols. Satan is prodding for your independency to God and disobedience to Him because that's the way Lucifer wants to be. He naturally wants you to be like him, to follow him instead and his way of thinking. And that is what you are doing.
The discussion here is who are the Two Witnesses not if you go to Heaven immediately after you die, but if you want to read what I think about that, read here. In short, when a person dies, he goes to rest (timeless unawares) either in Abraham's bosom for the saved or the bad side of Hades where the Rich Man went if you are unsaved. From there the unsaved such as yourself will be resurrected a thousand years after the saved are resurrected.
For more on the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revel...#two_witnesses
