Election and Predestination are Unto Service not Salvation

Election and Predestination Were
Never Unto Salvation but Unto Service

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

Doesn't that sound like God has chosen certain ones to be saved, which of course would mean that the rest are chosen to damnation by default?

Response: What this means, service instead of election, is that for those who can see they are born-again, chosen before the foundations of the world which gives us comfort having fulfilled God's requirement in Scripture to trust in Jesus, we know we are the elect predestined by God foreknowing our free-choice. The works that flow from new birth are works of service.

It is a very great sin and perversion of Scripture to change God trying to convince us we are sinners into the brutal legalism that none can believe in Christ without the god of Calvinism irresistibly making him and does not provide sufficient grace to others to have the choice. That can only ever lead to pompous pride which is a big turn off and turns people away from Christ, even keep someone in a false salvation. What love is this?

Christ introduces and explains John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.") with a reference to the incident in the wilderness involving the brazen serpent: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." This reference is to Numbers 21. Let's notice the wording there: "Every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live....If a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived" (Nu 21:8,9). This was the way Christ explained John 3:16. The Calvinists say that Christ was not talking about the whole world but only the world of the elect. Christ's example shows that this is not the case.

Christ does not allow this misinterpretation. Here is one of the reasons Calvinists generally avoid references to the Old Testament. Calvinism, far from being supported there, is refuted. It was not the homes of a few elect over which the destroying angel passed but every home where the blood had been applied. Who went through the Red Sea on dry land? An elect few? No, everyone who had been delivered from Egypt by the blood. Who ate of the manna in the wilderness? For whom did the water flow out of the rock? Who was led by the pillar of cloud by day and of fire by night? Was it an elect few among the Israelites? No, it was all of them, even though all did not believe.

Such examples could be multiplied by the dozens. In comparison, the few verses of doubtful interpretation that Calvinists hold out to prove their case are far from conclusive on their side. Even 2 Thessalonians 2:13 includes the proof that there is more involved than God simply choosing some to heaven. Something more is required of man: "through...belief of the truth."

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Originally Posted by brothermichael

Num 21:6 And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people; and they bit the people, and many people of Israel died.
Num 21:7 And the people came in to Moses and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against Jehovah, and against you. Pray to Jehovah, and He shall turn the serpent away from us. And Moses prayed on behalf of the people.
Num 21:8 And Jehovah spoke to Moses, Make yourself a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that when anyone is bitten, when he sees it, he shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of bronze and put it on a pole; and it happened, if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

This incident involved a small, select, shall we say, chosen, people, the Israelites. No Gentiles were involved. Many Israelites did die but some lived. How were they healed? By looking at the bronze serpent. That is the lesson taught here, salvation is through Christ alone, not our works, not our efforts, nothing we do can heal us, only looking to the Son for salvation. So now, through Christ, the healing is there for the "world", people from all nations, tongues and tribes, Jew and Gentile, whereas in the Numbers passage, it was for the Israelites alone.

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You're missing the point. The looking on to the brazen serpent was a choice afforded to all of Israel, not just some elect of Israel, just as Jesus died on the cross for all our sins. None who looked or did not look were coerced irresistibly or denied enabling grace as is taught in Calvinism. And you admit that some did die, so Israel was not irresistibly saved or irresistibly denied, but it was still the individual's choice.

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Concerning the Exodus example, where any Egyptians saved from the angel of death? No, only a select few, a chosen few, an elect people unto God.

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The blood was for all Hebrews just as Jesus died for all. Hence, conditional election. Whereas Egyptians lost their firstborn like in the flood which represents the world. It does not mean salvation was not available to them. It doesn't mean everyone in the flood is unsaved. Sometimes people get hit in the crossfire. Just as God was willing to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah even if there were some saved people in it. Recall it is Jesus in John 3 making this comparison with Israel for His atonement that will cover the sins of the whole world. Your issue is really with Jesus Christ.

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The 2 Thess. passage ties into Ephesians 1:4 & 5 (even as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,) and 2 Tim. 1:9 (the One having saved us and having called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace given to us in Christ Jesus before eternal times,)

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What is being said here is God does the saving, not how God saves. How does God save? "Through...belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2.13). If you are unwilling to believe in Christ before being regenerated, how else can God save you? You would be denying the "good pleasure of his will" (Eph. 1.5) and "not according to our works" (2 Tim. 1.9) such as "perseverance" works of the Calvinists.

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On 2 Thess 2: predestination or election precedes calling; (see Rom_8:30) (John Gill)

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But not in the way the Calvinist thinks. It is not by irresistible grace which can hardly even be called grace. Rather, it is by God foreknowing our free-choice that a man is predestined.

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Partly from the spirit or soul of man being the principal seat of it... (John Gill)

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No. Man is regenerated first in the spirit, not the soul. Once regeneration takes place in the spirit, the Holy Spirit quickening the spirit can begin to renew the outward soul. John Gill confuses man's spirit for the soul: "from the spirit or soul".

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holiness is not the cause of election... (John Gill)

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Holiness is not the cause of election? God elects based evilly?

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The "belief" or "faith" of this intends, not an historical faith, or a mere assent to truth; but a cordial embracing of it, a receiving of the love of the truth, a feeling of the power of it unto salvation, and a believing in Christ, the substance of it; which is a seeing of him spiritually, and a going out of the soul to him in acts of hope; reliance, trust, and dependence; and this being also a means settled in the choice of men to salvation, makes it appear, that faith is no cause of election, but the effect of it; that it is necessary to salvation, and therefore appointed as a means; that it is certain to the elect by it, and that they therefore cannot be finally and totally deceived, or be carried away with the error of the wicked, or with the deceivableness of unrighteousness with which antichrist works. (John Gill)

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How do you not assent to truth while at the same time embrace it? It only appears that faith is the cause of election, but is actually the effect of it? But the Bible says election is the result of faith. Through...belief of the truth" (2 Thess. 2.13). Why speak contrary to God's Word?

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Less Hunt, more Bible

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Not more Bible, but correct Bible reading, and you will be less hostile to Dave Hunt.

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Originally Posted by DesertScroll

Not chosen to damnation, left to damnation. Everyone is in a pit. God plucks some out because of mercy. The remaining get the deserving justice. Those of mercy do not deserve it.

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That is evil to allow a person who is born into sin to go to Hell without recourse. There is no mercy or justice in that. That is just an evil act of the Calvinism god. And those allegedly irresistibly saved don't deserve salvation, for that is not mercy, but coercion.

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Actually we are specifically told it was not based upon actions foreknown.

... for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, ... Rom 9:11

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This indicates not just two nations, but God's infinite foreknowledge of their choices. How can they do anything bad while still in the womb? But God could foresee their free-choice to believe in Him.

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'Not because of works but because of Him who calls' rules out works that would be foreknown as well. Its because of Him who calls, the choice is based upon God and God alone, not anything done by man, including future actions.

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Rom 9:16

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Whom does He call? Those who He foresees choose Him. God alone devised it this way. You can't overturn it with Calvinism. You can't "persevere" as a Calvinist for your salvation because you don't know if you are irresistibly chosen or not. Nobody could know such a thing.

God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17). Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).

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God's mercy does not follow from anything of man. Only himself. You can see the same thing in these verses: Rom 11:5 2 Tim 1:9 Tit 3:5 1 Pet 1:3. It is always according to God's choice, and that choice is not based upon man, but upon God's own purpose and grace.

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God's choice was to give man the choice. This is God's own purpose and grace. Do not be offended by this, for God wants a relationship with free-willed sovereign beings made in His image, not robots.

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There was nothing in God's choice to be proud of. It was undeserved. Not providing grace to others isn't something that has to be done. They are provided exactly what they deserve. You make it sound like the chance for grace is a right. And if it is a right, it is no longer grace, but a contest. And winning that contest would be something to boast about.

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God does have to provide grace, because that is His nature to do so. The chance for grace is a right, because God can't go contrary to His holy nature not to do so. Whereas your god can and that would be evil. Not giving the right is a contest for those who think they can persevere nonetheless; whereas God giving the right is grace. The gift of salvation can't be received if it is irresistibly imposed for anything forced is without God's love. Winning the contest as a Calvinist whoever perseveres is surely a works based faith.

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Not any man, but any man of the people God brought out of Egypt, ie... Israel. The analysis you provided kind of breaks down from there. The serpent was not for all, but for all in a specific group. In jesus' words 'whoever believes'.

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Since Jesus makes the comparison from all Israel to all the world, your issue is with Jesus who said to all, whosoever believeth" even you. My prayer is one day you accept this offer. You can't make it break down either as you assumed, for Egyptians represent the world and undergo a flood. Just because a flood occurs doesn't mean everyone in the flood is unsaved. For example, God was willing to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah even though there were some saved people in it.

The point of the brazen serpent is that whosoever was willing could be saved and it was for all. It certainly would be strange, in your Calvinist interpretation, to claim salvation is not just for the elect, but everyone in a sub-group of the world (say Israel), then within that sub-group only some get elected. If you were to stay with your argument you would see it fails because if salvation is offered to a sub-group of the world, but within that sub-group is a smaller group of just the saved, then at the very least salvation is offered to all within the sub-group giving them all the free-choice so that the elect are the ones who received the offer. But free offer is a contradiction with the Calvinism teaching.

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The destroying angel passed over the houses of Israelites, he destroyed the Egyptians. Israel was the elect. Same with who passed through the waters, Israel made it, Egypt drowned. An elect few again.
Same with the water from the rock, same with the pillars.

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Being the elect Israel doesn't mean all Israel is saved. It means Israel is the first nation God revealed Himself to.

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As far as the OT, it is the home of the promise. Everything good comes from this and everything bad is in relation to it. Read this site. Lots and lots of references to the OT.

Take a look at Gen 12:1-3. Do you see anything in there that is based upon what Abram would do? No. What Abram would do was based upon the promise. As it is pointed out God swore by himself, not God swore by what would happen. God's grace flows from the promise, not man's actions.

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Why was the promise given to Abram? Because of Abram's choice which God foresaw. Surely one who has given God a proper offering, like Abel did, will receive more abundant grace than one who refuses a proper offering to God. For example, the Pharaoh's heart was hardened because the Pharaoh already hardened his own heart, just like the Calvinist does.

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By grace you have been saved through faith. By grace you have been saved. Through faith you have been saved. Faith is the means by which grace works. Faith is not something seperate that leads to grace. Its of this same form. God created the heavens and the earth, through his Word.

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"Through faith" indeed! "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2). Faith is the means by which grace works, for by believing in Christ, God's grace can work, prepared for man. Faith directly leads to the saving grace of God which God bestows on "whosoever believeth." God creates and He saves, but never does He coerce salvation or become the author of evil by sending people to Hell taught by Calvinists without any opportunity to be saved. Only Satan would teach that. We must conclude the god of Calvinism is the Devil.