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I do not believe in god. This is because, with the evidence given, one cannot prove that god exists. In not believing in god, I would certainly not believe in Jesus as well. *Side Note* Why is it that god isn't corrected by the spell check as needing a capitol, making it a name or title, and yet jesus does? */Side Note* Seeing that the forum is used to teach people about christianity, perhaps somone could possibly enlighten me as to why one should submit to this or any religion?
Think of your belief in atheism as "a religion [your form of worship]...a waste of time, resources, and is plainly put together to control the masses with false-hope, intimidation, and belittlement." Perhaps call it eugenics, since 200 million people died in the 20th century from atheists, e.g. Hitler, Polpot and Stalin.
You have said before about yourself: "my belief is that God is an imaginary friend for adults. Jesus never lived, there is no historical reference by the many historians of his time." How can God be imaginary if the uncreated must exist? How can Jesus be imaginary if the evidence points to His existence and almost no skeptical scholar will say Jesus did not exist? It is not required every historian always mention Jesus. Since God created us and entered His creation in Jesus (2nd Person of the Trinity), the logically questions is why? Because He wants a personal relationship with us. He is relational: Father, Son, Spirit: diversity in unity. Logically, therefore, examine the evidence leaves you with no doubt Jesus is God.
Early Commentators
Discuss early Christians (patristics), their writings (patrology) and biolographies of believers (hagiography), but 'call no man your father upon the earth' (Matt. 23.9), e.g. Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Ignatius, Dionysius of Corinth in Eusebius, Tertullian, Origen. And discuss the most trusted early non-Christian writings about Christ, e.g. Josephus (Jewish), Tacitus (Roman), Lucian (satirist), Mara Bar-Serapion (highly regarded in the British Museum), Talmud (an important Jewish document). We have 129 facts of Jesus in 45 ancient sources, 17 of which are non-Christian.
Appreciate the excuses you may have against Christ are just your flesh, disobedience and independency from your Creator and why Hell exists, to give you the choice to go there if you wish.
A person can believe in a god that is not God. The evidence for God is what God says it is. He says He is proven by things in nature. What is He saying? He is saying since nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore, the universe can't cause itself. The only possibility that remains is the uncaused (always existing) God is the cause. And He is Jesus, for He is proven by His resurrection. There are 45 ancient sources citing over 129 facts of Jesus Christ in antiquity. 17 of them are non-Christian. Of those 17 non-Christian sources, 12 speak of His death and 7 speak of His resurrection (and 7 speak of His deity). Of the 45 sources, 18 speak of His resurrection. There is no person in antiquity more well documented and testified. By historical standards, Jesus is the most well attested person that ever lived in those times as goes for His resurrection, because most skeptical scholars admit Paul was being genuine when he said he saw Jesus resurrected and spent time with the Apostles who said the same (1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2).
12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
The reason you should submit to God the Father through Jesus is because you are a sinner in need of salvation, all sin gets punished, and if you don't receive the penalty of your sin accepting His work on the cross to take all the sins of the world upon Himself, especially yours, you will go to Hell. He requires this because in order to be forgiven and presentable to Him, you must be quickened in your spirit and regenerated with God's life so the Holy Spirit can enter.
Without the robe of His righteousness, you have nothing.
Jesus appeared 12 times to different group sizes ranging from just one person to 500 people:
1) Mary Magdalene (Mark 16.9-11; John 20.11-18)
2) the other women at the tomb (Matthew 28.8-10)
3) Peter in Jerusalem (Luke 24.34; 1 Cor. 15.5)
4) The two travelers on the road (Mark 16.12,13)
5) Ten disciples behind closed doors (Mark 16.14; Luke 24.36-43; John 20.19-25)
6) All the disciples, with Thomas (excluding Judas Iscariot) (John 20.26-31; 1 Cor. 15.5)
7) Seven disciples while fishing (John 21.1-14)
8) Eleven disciples on the mountain (Matthew 28.16-20)
9) A crowd of 500 (1 Cor. 15.6)
10) Jesus' brother James (1 Cor. 15.7)
11) Those who watched Jesus ascend to heaven (Luke 24.44-49; Acts 1.3-8)
12) Least of all Paul as though he was not living in the proper time (1 Cor. 15.8-9; Gal. 1.13-16; Acts 9.1-8, 22.9, read all of chapters 22 and 26; 13.30-37; 1 Cor. 15.10-20; Gal. 2.1-10).
For further consideration, observe these points:
Now if so many people saw Jesus resurrected, is it really so hard to believe the saved will be resurrected at the consummation of the age of the dispensation of grace-the end of the mystery age of the church?
- Luke has no problem between Paul's appearance and those made to the disciples in Luke 24, Acts 1.1-11. Luke records both types of appearances of Jesus to the disciples and to Paul.
- "Last of all he was seen of me also" (1 Cor. 15.8).
- "Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" (1 Cor. 9.1).
- Others saw the light and heard the voice during Paul seeing Jesus bodily, however because Paul's experience was post-ascension, it may be slightly different.
- Evolution of a resurrection theory actually devolved from the accounts of the 40 days with the disciples to when Paul saw Jesus (Gal. 1.15-16).
- "To reveal His Son in me" (Gal. 1.16,18) took three years following the Damascus road experience. Don't mistake this portion as being the bodily appearance.
- "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man" (Acts 9.7). This presumes that Paul saw the man.
And those who reject Christ shall be resurrected after the thousand years to be judged and thrown into Hell for all eternity, consciously existing therein forever to be eternally separated from God and His people.
We are a talking about here a physically resurrected Jesus whom you could touch physically.
It becomes clear why God created you, because in creating you out of His glory, His desire is readily seen that He wants a relationship with you, but that can't happen if you reject His love. There will be no choice but to send you to Hell if you keep denying your very existence is because of Him. You're like a spoiled brat having a tantrum against his parents.
Realize something very special. Because you are going to Hell, you actually lead people to Christ because they don't want to be like you.
Praise the Lord!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
I stand by my statement, I am an atheist. The acts of people such as Hitler, Polpot and Stalin have nothing to do with my lack of belief in any gods. And what of the people who died because of religion? I'm sure that over the many centuries, since any religion was formed (not just yours), there has been bloodshed in the name of god, or a god, that equals to far more than 200 million.
Anyone or anything can just claim something, that makes it in no way correct. I could publish a book and claim many things in it, and none or all of them could be actual facts. A book, that was written by man, cannot by itself prove the existence of anything. Theres a thing called evidence, and to prove things, you need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
Once again, anything printed in a book can claim to be fact, but unless theres sufficient evidence to prove something, it can't be labled fact. A person can't prove an item's, or article's, authenticity without having something backing it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
How do people that never come in contact with a missionary, or anything else that can inform people of their "sins" and tell them to repent, get judged? Why send people that never had the chance to repent to hell, why not create a third place, a neutral place that wont send people to suffer for all time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
How does me being an atheist, with good reason, make people want to be christian? Do i somehow carry around me an aura that makes people feel as though I'm going about things wrong and that they need to turn to a life embracing god? Also, if being an atheist is really so bad, then why did some of history's greatest scientists and free thinkers make the choice to be one? I believe that great men, such as Ben Franklin and Albert Einstein, would know better than to doom themselves to an afterlife of pain and suffering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Churchwork
Your believe in no God is the same as Hitler, Polpot and Stalin, for there is no need for a creator in your views, so you live your life without considering God's need and desires, to do His will and walk by the Spirit. Ultimately it is selfish, self-centered and evil to live like that, for you were not created to be so self-indulgent.
The evidence we have is far more people die from non-religions than religions. In most centuries past there was not even existing 200 million people at any one time, and wars were based on resources. But people die in false religions too, because they reject Christ, and as you know Jesus never hurt anyone. He even spoke up against false religions in Matthew 13 and Revelation 17. He particular despises the Roman Church or "religious Rome" that is located on the 7 hilled city where the Vatican exists. The center ought to be Jerusalem from where He will return to reign in Person (Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7, Zech. 14.4). Therefore, since it takes every kind, there are not just you evil atheists, but there are false Christians who are unsaved and going to Hell. Satan makes himself to be an angel of light. Don't blame Jesus for false Christians. That would be disingenuous. You see your problem when you argue against a quality of God that is not His? That would be like me trying to prove you are a freak by saying you have 9 toes.
The proof that God uses to prove Himself is the scientific standard man accepts today by the scientific method. We observe trillions of things with causes in nature and not one thing that is without a cause, proving to us that the uncaused must exist. To deny this is like playing the worse lottery in history with odds against you more than a trillion to one. Since no fathomable alternative exists, it must be true.
We are only using the evidence that most atheists agree in. Most atheists, speaking of atheistic scholars, agree that Paul wrote Gal. 1 & 2, 1 Cor. 15 in which he said he met with the Apostles who also said they saw Jesus resurrected. Paul wrote many things and set up many churches and many people knew him, but we don't need to get into that, but only accept these 3 chapters which most atheist scholars agree Paul was being genuine. Since those atheist scholars can't explain away his eyewitness testimony, and hallucinations can't explain it away according to modern psychology, then know that it true. Furthermore, people don't go to their deaths believing in what they thought was a lie. They truly believed it, so you need to explain away their eyewitness accounts. You can explain away people who die for beliefs in their gods which they can never prove, but that is different than group eyewitness claims of seeing Jesus resurrected bodily, touching Him, walking with Him, speaking with Him and eating with Him.
This is called the Minimal Facts Approach which means we don't need the whole Bible to be inerrant (though we can prove that it is), but only need to focus on the common ground that atheists and Christians share. Obviously, the reason why skeptical scholars don't go the route of saying Jesus did not exist or that Paul was not being genuine is because there are too much evidences and would be unscholarly.
God is a realistic God so He sends out His apostles to preach the good news. Someone who never heard the Gospel if he looked at the mountains and stars and believed in that Creator, surely he would receive Jesus into His life, so that God saves that person and would not send them to Hell. But you are going to Hell because you have this evidence and the graciousness of the Gospel delivered to you, and still you call Jesus a liar. God does not want the world to be in darkness, so He sends His missionaries across the globe, because He wants an exponential progression in improvement. He does not want this age we are in now to extend for a million years. And that is exactly what we observe, for there are many things today man does not do because his conscience has improved.
Many, even a greater majority, scientists were Christians. The reason why there are unsaved scientists is because God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34). How unjust God would be if only scientists could be saved. That makes no sense.
I don't know if Ben, Albert and Isaac were actually born-again, but if you exalt renowned men, and don't consider the evidence given for your own consideration, then what good will it do for you to exalt them, because you forsake the evidence, that all things in nature have a cause. This was Einstein and Newton's view were, and they said they believed in God from quotes I have. I think you misrepresented them.
Perhaps partly because of your aura, but more so because of your mistaken thoughts and overassuming pride, people consider your mentality corrupted and conclude your belief must be false. This helps draw people to Christ. You are in a way by your life leading people to Jesus. Amen.