RaptureReady.com Beliefs

Brothers and sisters: if "thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10), then what happens if some Christians don't fulfill this condition?

Once-saved-always-saved. They won't lose eternal life, so what does this verse mean? Does it mean that some Christians will not be accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation, so that they will need to pass through the Tribulation and not be raptured to the throne (Rev. 7.9) before the Trumpets of the Tribulation (Rev. 8ff)? This event that is to take place will affect everyone: Jews, Gentiles and Christians.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36). If you are not watchful, then you will not be ready to be raptured before the Tribulation, but will be one of those who is "left" (Matt. 24.40-41,42; 1 Thess. 4.15-17) to be raptured afteward, both Christians before the judgment seat (before the millennium) and unsaved after the millennium.

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Werner-moderator at raptureready.com

Not "if" Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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Of the 7 churches only Philadelphia as an aggregate keeps the word of His patience, so naturally it says to them, "because," but is it true of all believers? Each of the 7 churches are spoken to, to overcome (specific messages are given to each); that would mean there are some that don't overcome. They don't lose eternal life, but they would lose the reward of reigning in the millennium even being raptured before the Tribulation (Rev. 3.10), because they were not accounted ready and worthy (Luke 21.36). Thus they would not be ready before the Tribulation commences to be raptured to the throne.

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The thing to keep in mind, IMHO, is that these letters are written to the visible church made up of believers and unbelievers. No believer will be left behind at the Rapture because we are all justified and worthy in Christ. Those who are part of the visible church and not believers will be left behind, spewed out, etc.

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The church is always those who are saved. There are no unsaved souls in the church. There may be some unsaved in the kingdom of heaven (e.g. tares), but never are there any unsaved in the specific local churches. These verses are not talking about justification and eternal life (that is clear), but rewards for being watchful and ready. Would God ever ask a non-believer to be watchful and ready, to keep the word of His patience? How can a non-believer do that if he is not saved? First he must be born-again, otherwise you are teaching salvation by works.

Matt. 24.40-41 also says some Christians are "left" for the last trumpet rapture, after some are "taken" at the first trumpet rapture. So verse 42 says, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come," similar to Luke 21.36. Again, a non-Christian does not watch for he does not even believe. Nor does Israel watch, for it does not believe; it does not know how to watch. All Israel can do is wait for the return of Christ in Person to receive its covenant promise.

In the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven today there is the saved wheat and the unsaved tares. Both are in the sphere of the kingdom. The unsaved tares try to look like the saved wheat, but they are not the church. Only the saved wheat (Matt. 13) would be constituted as the church.

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We are worthy only in Christ. Many people may make the claim to be His but they are not. No Christian is going to be found unworthy, else Christ becomes a liar!

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To be saved is to be worthy in Christ, but it does not give you a free ticket to do anything you like (antinomianism), so that to be worthy to escape the hour of the trial by keeping the word of His patience, being watchful, keeping the conduct of Matt. 5-7 and so forth, seems to be the condition given in Rev. 3.10 to believers only. Some Christians will not be ready then, but some will. I dare say then, the danger is in overassuming first rapture for yourself while laying on a bed of fornication.

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Luke isn't talking about the Rapture, so this part is not even applicable. :):

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Luke says "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (21.36). And Rev. 3.10 says it similarly, because "thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth".

The only way such a promise can be made to stand before the Son of man in 3rd heaven before the throne is by rapture (rapture first begins at Rev. 7.9). There is no other way. God can not promise no martyrdom, so Luke must be talking about rapture, for this is the only sure way such a promise can be made, Jesus said (these are Jesus' words, not Luke's). Jesus is saying you can escape the Tribulation if you are watchful and ready to be received at the first rapture. So instead of meeting the Lord in the "air" at the last trumpet, if you keep His word, then you may be received at the rapture before the Tribulation.

The phrase “all these things” (v.36) refers to the Great Tribulation. The surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34 are happening today. "All these things that shall come to pass" (v.36) - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present RIGHT now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities to escape all thes things at the end of this age of the Tribulation.

Luke 21.10-19 - Believers will suffer, even through the Tribulation, but pray for v.36 in which some may escape the Tribulation if we fulfill the condition for being ready to be taken up and received. If a balloon is tied down to the world it cannot ascend yet. Perhaps works are too distasteful for you in Christ. Should then a carnal believer be raptured first? In God's design there are always advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere. And so 1 Thess. 4.15-17 says there are those who are "alive" and "left." God is not being redundant here. He is simply saying that there were some "take" for being ready at the first rapture, then some believers who did not die in the Tribulation will be "left" to be raptured at the last trumpet.

Remember the Bible says after three and a half days the Two Witnesses will be taken up: raptured. So will be true of the martyrs in th Tribulation. Then there are those who are "left" who did not die in the Tribulation, who will be taken up with those resting that are saved from previous dispensations.

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Originally Posted by Kate

OK...now I need some clarification. Crosswin, are you saying that you wonder if there are a couple of "raptures"???

To me, "the rapture" is one event - the taking up of Christ's bride (his church) BEFORE the great tribulation....are you suggesting that perhaps some will be raptured before and during due to repeated sin????

I read Matthew 7 & 8 and the list of things we should not do....some I've done, some I've not done...regardless - I sin every single day of my life! I wouldn't survive if it were not for God's grace and I try NEVER to take advantage of that - yet do find myself going back to Him apologizing for the same sins over and over again. Some of which I feel almost helpless to change without His help. Some are like defaults that I can't go in and physically "fix" - He HAS to do it.

I rely heavily on what Christ did to save me....from myself! I'm not alone. I will never ever be good enough to get into heaven. Alot of what is written in scripture that says "if you do this, you go to hell" - if that's the case, keeping the letter of the law, I'm dead already!!! Let's just say it like it is - cuz I've failed miserably.

My ONLY hope is in Christ and work of his life and death on the cross. I don't know I'll change for any better or worse if I had to go through the first 3 1/2 years of the trib, or the entire 7 years if I made it. I'd still profess Christ, still probably struggle with my own personal sins, but I love him, claim him as my savior and try, though even then would be imperfect, to serve him....
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Blessings,

Kate

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I do not think I am saying if I wonder anything. I seem to be saying there is only one explanation here, that 1 Thess. 4.15-17 and Matt. 24.40c indicate to us a rapture at the last trumpet, and Rev. 3.10 and matt. 24.40b indicate to us a first rapture. First rapture has a stipulation, a condition. The last trumpet rapture is a matter of completion of all those who had not yet been raptured.

The rapture process is one event. It commences when parousia commences and spans the last week consummation of this age. The reason there are those raptured at the start of the Tribulation is because they kept God's patient Word, whereas other believers were not yet ready to be received, remaining as non-overcomers.

Certainly, repeated sin plays a part. If a believer prefers to lie on a bed of fornication, constantly repeating faults, that is his choice to resist God's grace. He can't do so forever, but he will encounter a loss of rewards and not be raptured before the Tribulation, since he was not watchful nor ready to be received. Not only this, but God has works set for us, and if we do not do them, this also is grounds for non-readiness. Many Christians don't think there is accountability, but judgment seat is for Christians.

You very well may not be ready even if you pass through the Tribulation, but even so, God will receive you anyway, if you are saved. But you will not be one of the 5 wise virgins to reign during the millennial kingdom, entering the marriage feast. Even though you would not be raptured at the start of the Tribulation for not being worthy, the grace of God still gives you opportunity to overcome through the Tribulation, even as a martyr. You can refuse this too if you like.

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Originally Posted by RevJeff

Werner,

You are right on in declaring the only way we are found worthy is in Christ. Any other answer is a works philosophy, such as espoused by partial rapture believers. To me it comes down to one point. Will God expose His children to His wrath, those who have been found faithful, abiding in Christ. Colossians 3:6 says the wrath of God is to come upon the sons of disobedience, not His children. Any view other than pretrib basically states that God is going to pour His wrath out upon His children who have come to Him as He has instructed, through Christ. That view is in no way consistent with what scripture teaches about God.

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Christians ought to do works in Christ. This flows from the Holy Spirit to do God's will and God's works set for us according to Matt. 5-7, which pertains to conduct and is keeping His patient Word (Rev. 3.10) which not all Chistians do. Christians are worthy in Christ because we have been saved by God's grace with the shedding of the precious blood, but this does not mean we are automatically overcoming in all regards or ready to be received at the first rapture, for there needs be the condition fulfilled according to Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36. God does not give such a condition in vain. He backs it with substance, action, meaning and purpose. He follows through on what He says. Moreover, there are those needed to help fight Satan out of 2nd heaven, and for this, God needs not only the archangel Michael, but the most overcoming of Saints. This is the "war in heaven" that takes place (Rev. 12.7) that occurs during the Tribulation while things are going on on earth.

Today, Satan's wrath persists. It will extenuate in the Tribulation. God's wrath existed in the past and will extend into the Tribulation. Certainly Saints should not be raptured already because God's wrath is enacted in His divine providence throughout the centuries. Just because Christians are alive today when God's wrath happens against people, does not mean God's wrath is happening against us. Similarly, in the Tribulation, when God's wrath is being effected, does not mean His wrath is coming against the Saints. The heat of the wrath of God in particular is during the bowls, which occurs during the last 24 months of the Great Tribulation in the 3rd woe. the Saints are raptured before the bowls (Rev. 11.15) as the last trumpet pours out the 7 bowls. Christians who are not ready at the first rapture would pass through the Tribulation, even unto martyrdom which is grounds for overcoming according to Rev. 20.4. It is called the time of recompense: the time of testing. It will test everyone and has its valid purpose.

My concern for those who are Pretrib Onlists is as folows then:

Never think Christians who go through the Tribulation are Left Behind. They are saved also, except they are not ready. In all probability if you are saved you will pass through the Tribulation also if you are alive at the first trumpet. Only about 1/7th of believers alive at the first rapture are raptured alive to the throne before the Tribulation, as indicated by only one of the 7 churches was accounted worthy to be received at first rapture.

What you should be concerned with is the false teaching of overassuming your first rapture. How will you ever recognize the Tribulation when you are in it? You will always keep thinking if it was the Tribulation, you would have been raptured already, thus, degrading your conscience further. How will refuse the mark of the beast in the Tribulation since you assume it is never the Tribulation? Eternally for you it is never the Tribulation. You are setting yourself up for a great fall, believing in Pretrib Onlyism. It's wrong to accuse Christians who pass through the Tribulation as being unsaved. This is puffed up.

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Originally Posted by kjlistrom

RevJeff,
You are right, and there are many verses that say the church will be spared from the wrath.

I also add that this is the age of Grace, why would God after 2000 years of sin in the church just punish a few at the end while all the others are in his glory?

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Christians are martyred all the time, not just at the end. You missed the post on God's wrath, that God's wrath doesn't come against Christians, so when Christians are martyred it is not God's wrath against believers, but Satan's wrath. Christians will be raptured before the bowls at the last trumpet, that is, the heat of God's wrath. The first half of the 7 year Tribulation is not much wrath, though some. During the first 5 months of the second half of the Tribulation, people are not killed either. You can't pick and choose what you get to escape arbitrarily, so God has said if you are accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation, He will receive you at the first rapture. But if you overassume first rapture not according to readiness, then you won't be ready and may not even realize the Tribulation is happening when you are in it, so that you take the mark. Your choice.

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Originally Posted by Werner

crosswin,
It's possible to know of God but not place your faith in Him. There are many people going to "local assemblies" that are not part of the Body of Christ, which is the True Church. The local assemblies were real local assemblies and are not in totality limited to the Body of Christ (which is not seven, but is one).

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The universal church is indeed one, but local expressions of the church like Ephesus, Smyrna, and Philadelphia are real localities. Rev. 2 & 3 is a calendar of the dispensation of grace in the church age. It shows us the condition of the church periods. We are in the Laodicean church period now, the last one, of "differing opinions" such as believing you will be raptured before the Tribulation no matter how sinful you are. This is not in good conscience to be sure. During the 19th century was the Philadelphia church period when first rapture according to readiness was widely accepted. Those in the church are saved. Those who go to a meeting may not be saved, thus they would not be described as the church. All those who break bread should be saved. The kingdom of heaven includes within it, the outward appearance of of the unsaved tares and the saved wheat. Outside the kingdom of heaven is the dogs, the unsaved who admit they are not even in the kingdom.

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You have to take the seven letters in Revelation with the rest of God's Word. John in his letters tells us who the overcomers are, and they are those who are in Christ. The Smyrna and Philadelphia Assemblies are not infested with unbelievers. There are some believers in every assembly, but some have many more than claim to know Christ but do not.

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John in his letters says who the overcomers are. He says they are those who are called out of the body of Christ unto rewards. All believers overcome in Christ, but it is a matter of when. Those who are ready at the first rapture are received according to readiness. None of the churches are infested with unbelievers since everyone in the church is saved. Though there are those who hang around in the sphere of the kingdom, they are not all saved. Assembly is not constituted the church. The church is the body of Christ. An assembly is the local church which may have some non-believers in it, but the church as the body of Christ has no unbelievers.
Read Rev. 2 & 3 again to see that in each church there are called out ones who overcome to receive a reward. Such ones would be accounted worthy to be received at the first rapture. All Christians overcome, except not by the time of first rapture. There is still the Tribulation that must pass as well as the rewards in the millennial kingdom for overcomer believers.

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Being worthy in Christ means just that. Apart from Him no one will be found worthy. In Him we are all Accepted, Justified and Worthy. If we abuse that Liberty we have in Christ the Father will discipline us, and no one has suggested that God turns a blind eye to what we do because we are in Christ...

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Since God does not turn a blind eye, then you shall not be received at the first rapture since you overassume your readiness and lack the humility to be an overcomer believer, considering first rapture according to readiness and abiding in the condition of Rev. 3.10 and Luke 21.36. Moreover it is wrong to accuse Christians of being unsaved who were not ready to be received at the first rapture.

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Luke is not talking about the Rapture. I think you are reading that into what he says... There are no signs connected to the Rapture.
IMHO :):

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Luke is talking about rapture and the proof was supplied in this thread. The signs connected with rapture were already stated, though you must be able to reason with a clear conscience when reading what has already been given.
Opinion is not necessarily truth. It must be proven. Read it again.

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Originally Posted by kjlistrom

This is the Age of Grace.
Each one of these verses, will tell you that you will not go through the 7 year Trib. that God will keep you from it, that is if you are born again.
John 14:3 Romans 8:16-25
Romans 14:10-12 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
1 Corinthians 4:5 1 Corinthians 6:14
1 Corinthians 7:29-31 1 Corinthians 15:42-56
2 Corinthians 4:14 2 Corinthians 5:1-5
2 Corinthians 5:10 Ephesians 4:30
Ephesians 5:27 Philippians 1:6 Philippians 1:10 Philippians 2:16
Philippians 3:9-11 Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20
1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Thessalonians 5:9 1 Thessalonians 5:23
1 Timothy 6:14-15 2 Timothy 1:12
2 Timothy 4:8 Titus 2:13
Hebrews 10:25 Hebrews 10:37
Hebrews 11:35 James 1:12
1 Peter 1:5 1 Peter 1:7
1 Peter 1:13 1 Peter 4:7
1 Peter 5:4 2 Peter 1:11
1 John 2:28 1 John 3:2-3
Revelation 3:10-11 Revelation 4:1-11
Revelation 5 1-14

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Not a single one of these verse say you will escape the Tribulation for being just a Christian. Read them.

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Originally Posted by kjlistrom

Crosswin
I guess I got in to the middle of all of this, sorry, I did miss some of what was said.
If you want me out of if it just say, or I'll try to catch up some.
I'm pre trib and one rapture.

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You're welcome to stay. Just know that though there are arguments against a posttrib onlyism, there is many more assumptions made by pretrib onlyism.

Ergo, the recommendation to you is let the Lord humble you, so that you remove the dissension from pre and post by seeing first rapture is according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).

There are other verses too like 1 Thess. 5.2,4 which show us we don't know when the Lord comes, but the second rapture occurs because we know when the Lord comes.

Mark 13 states a first rapture, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16) indicating a last trumpet rapture.

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Originally Posted by Werner

You are saying that since I over assume my readiness I'm not going?
Jesus is not contradicting Paul in the letters, and Paul makes it clear all believers go.
The proof is lacking and just your opinion. Signs connected to the Rapture? It wasn't even revealed during the time Christ was here preaching the coming Kingdom! Sometimes taking our own advice is best...

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By overassuming is a function of puffiness without evidence for your view. You have therefore said in no uncertain terms you need not be ready at first rapture, and shall be received anyway, despite the conditions given and the overcomers called out in each of the 7 churches that receive special reward.

All believers go, but not at the same time. Some believers have died already. The Lord is already in heaven. Enoch and Elijah were already raptured. There were those raptured in Matt. 27.52. There could be those raptured we have not even heard about. We still remain on earth. And some believers are yet to be born. The body of Christ is figurative and just because there seems to be these separations, we are still one in Christ.

The proof is clear, when God gives a condition, it is a condition, and should not be interpreted otherwise. These are believers in Luke 21 and these are believers in Rev. 3. They are all saved, except some abide in the condition, and some do not. Ergo, some pass through Tribulation and some do not.

The signs pertain to the context first and foremost. We see the condition given, that if you are watchful and patient and ready, you shall be received at the first rapture, but if you are not, you will pass through the Tribulation whether you realize it is the Tribulation or not. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s, but scholars quite agree that Matt. 24.26-35, Luke 21.25-37 and Mark 13.24-31 correspond to the same period and all these signs disclosed within. And Matt. 24.1-25 corresponds to Mark 13.1-23 and Luke 21.5-24.

Sometimes taking your own advice is just not good because it is just self. Rapture is something slowly brought into view, however it was known even in time of Enoch and Elijah for they were translated, so it is wrong of you to say rapture was not known. Hence, Luke 21.36 is first rapture according to readiness to escape the the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world, a condition that can only be promised by rapture, since death is no promise or blessing.

The kingdom is that which Israel had long since been looking for which is the Messianic Kingdom concurrent with the millennial kingdom, so it is wrong to say it was not been being sought after, for with Christ on earth, you would expect his explantion of it, and so He explains it will be like the times of Noah. Enoch was translated and Noah went through the Tribulation, which is a type of rapture for the last trumpet.

"For that day will come upon everyone living on earth" (Luke 21.35). Pray that you may escape these things and stand before the Son of man, that is, before the throne in 3rd heaven (Rev. 7.9). There can be no rapture found in Rev. 4, 5 or 6. It is only at the interjection before the Trumpets are blown (Rev. 8), that we see first rapture of overcomer believers raptured alive because they kept the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10). Later we see the last trumpet rapture (Rev. 11.15, 1 Thess. 4.15-17).