Consequences of Rejecting First Rapture According to Readiness

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03-16-2011, 05:47 PM
foreversaved

Consequences of Rejecting First Rapture According to Readiness

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Originally Posted by son_flower

Nope.

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Acts 1:7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Matt.24:36But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Nope.

"Of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you" (1 Thess. 5.1) was not said to say, you can't know. How silly. "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord" (v.2).

It is true back then they could not know, for Jesus stipulated the condition, only when Israel becomes a nation again (Matt. 24.32) can we know "right at the door" (v.33) the very day. It would be like saying, you can't know as a teenager when you will get married, but the same does not hold true once one has entered the engagement.

You've misread Matt. 24.36 for it it follows verse 35, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (v.36). Heaven and earth don't pass away when Jesus returns. Heaven and earth only pass away after the 1000 year reign with a rod of iron "over the nations" (Rev. 2.26).

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There is never a reason to make prognostications

God says we can know by the signs in the heavens so they are not prognostications, but in your prognostication you say we can't know. Do we trust Jesus or you?
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart..." —Matthew 13:15

"There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars" (Luke 21.25). "The day of the LORD is near...The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining" (Joel 3.14,15). "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2.20). Jesus said you can know the season even the day "right at the door" (Matt. 24.33) after Israel becomes a nation (v.32). We can know the day, just not the hour (Matt. 24.42). "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you" (1 Thess. 5.1). Joel and the John's vision even say, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake (Haiti 2010); and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair (H3 Solar Eclipse Nov. 3, 2013), and the moon became as blood (2014/15 Total Lunar Tetrad)" (Joel 2.31, Rev. 6.12) before the Tribulation starts Sept. 14, 2015 Feast of Trumpets to Aug. 7, 2022 Tisha B'Av (2,520 days).

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Yes the resurrection is Sunday. The cross is Friday.

I'm glad you agree the miracle on Sunday is not divorced from the crucifixion as Jesus said He will give one sign, the sign of Jonah.

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You said He reigns in a Temple. That does not say anything about a temple.

Since it says in Jude 14,15 that Jesus comes to earth with the saints and Rev. 2.26 says we who overcometh reign over the nations on earth and Zech. 14.4 says He steps down on the mount of olives and Acts 1.11 says He returns just as He left and Matt. 24.27 and Rev. 1.7 say all will know it when He returns, then we can be confident the Temple is not housed by someone else but the Lord Jesus. May you one day have faith to believe this.

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Huh??
What scripture sais He reigns in an earthly temple?
And where is this 'slowly' through the 1000 year reign transition Temple written??

Jesus could not be hindered by walls and appeared at random for 40 days after His resurrection.

1 Cr. 3:16-17Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2Cr.6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

As was said Jesus will be on earth reigning for 1000 years. From where? Obviously the newly built temple, not in China or in Brazil or in the Utah Mormon Temple. He kicks out the money changers of His temple on earth that He would have reigned in if He wasn't killed.

In the New City, ask the question why there is no Temple mentioned when there was one in the millennial kingdom? The answer is obvious, God and the Lamb are the center thereof just like it says in Rev. 21. "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it" (Rev. 21.22). Why don't you have faith to believe this and trust in God's word?

Temples are not mutually exclusive. You can be a temple of God while the Temple of God on earth exists. Don't confuse the Holy Spirit in the temple or the spirit of the believer with the physical Temple on earth. That would be a grave mistake. While the Temple on earth remains, the New Jerusalem above does not yet come down until the 1000 years is finished. 2 Thess. 2.4 speaks of not us as temples but the Third Temple the Antichrist will take over a short while: "he sitteth in the Temple" and claims to the world he is God. "Do not measure the court outside the temple" (Rev. 11.2) because it will be overrun during the Great Tribulation.

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The bible does not say "The Antichrist". Why, because there are many of them. And never with a capital letter because it is not a name nor a proper noun. It is a spirit in the world that many believe look at these scriptures:

Placing a THE in front of a partial snippet of scripture does not make it a truth, just the opposite.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn4:3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. ntiIts always nice

2 Jn 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

This word is used as a noun in both cases, singularly and pluraly. The Lexicon says "masculine noun" thus, in capital letters. The Bible does say the Antichrist shall come (singularly) who is the beast with the number 666 (Neron Kaisar in Aramaic, Rev. 13.18). Satan will release him from the pit (Rev. 9.1). This takes discernment. "Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists" (1 John 2.18). Don't be surprised by the ultimate of antichrists, for there are many already.

It is entirely illogical to think the Bible doesn't say there is an Antichrist at the end of this age for the reason you give because you think there are many already. On the contrary, because there are many, naturally there will be consummated the ultimate Antichrist.

The reason why it says "Antichrist will come" or "the Antichrist shall come" and not "an antichrist" is because it is "the Antichrist." Satan is the evil spirit of the world and will as the Restrainer release his prized possession, Antichrist Nero, from the pit in the last three and a half years of Daniel's last seven. Most Bible versions place "the" in front which just strengthens the point. None that I know of use "an" as in 2 John 1.7. "Deceivers" are connected with "an antichrist" because there are "many deceivers." I fear that you will be taken in by the Antichrist since you deny his existence.

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Those both say "the temple of God". Not "Third Temple of God".

The new covenant temple is the Church as already quoted..
The old covenant temple was burnt to a char in 70AD.

There is no physical Temple on earth during the dispensation of grace or mystery age of the Church. "Measure" and "sitteth in" are words to connote a physical place. Since the 2nd Temple is destroyed and Israel has planned to build the 3rd Temple very soon, know this is the physical Temple Jesus will reign in for 1000 years. We associate the 6th Tetrad since Christ to Israel a nation again, the 7th Tetrad to Israel entering Jerusalem and the 8th Tetrad to Israel building the Temple as well as the beginning of the Tribulation. These are signs in the sun and moon we are told to look out for with the very rare H3 Hybrid Solar Eclipse Nov. 3, 2013 in front of the 8th Tetrad 2014/15.

Since Jesus will reign on earth with His overcomer believers (Rev. 20.4-6) in person, then where would you have Him physically reign if not in the Temple? Do you think He will do so from Alaska or Haiti or Moscow? Perhaps Rome? Silly. Jesus keeps His promise to Israel to be the center of all nations and that He will reign as the "Lion of Judah" from the land of Israel, from Jerusalem, from the Temple itself. Praise the Lord! Amen.

The old covenant does not do away with the Temple, but is a foretaste of the millennial reign of Christ in the Temple. It is only done away with when the 1000 years is completed and the New City and New Earth commence.

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Not.
Only a third is future and some of which has already happened.

John, in tribulation, wrote the book of Revelation while on the Isle of Patmos around 90AD and includes a division of 3. Things he already saw, things which were present in his day, and things future to both to him and to us.
Jesus sais:
Rev. 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age-7 church periods. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 5 recounts the atonement and resurrection. The 1st Seal recounts the cross. The Seals are the past 20 centuries. It is only the 5th Seal and 6th Seal which are truly future right before the first rapture (Rev. 7.9) and the Tribulation beginning the first trumpet (8.7ff). Rev. chapters 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from chapters 7 to 11 JUST LIKE Genesis 2 gives the details of Gen. 1.

If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

The things which are seen was that of Rev. 1. The thing that are, of course, are the 7 churches. And the things which shall be thereafter are the rest of Revelation giving us the future. At the time of John's writing he saw the 7 church periods; even detailing the 7 church periods yet to be fulfilled really the only thing that is of the past was Rev. 1.

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Oh so no earthquake now its a missile.

Satan dwells among us on earth:

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
1Pet.5:8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The nuke is your idea not mine.

No, the earthquake is not a missile. How silly. Where do you get that? "Star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp...the star is called Wormwood" (Rev. 8.10,11) with its nuclear toxicity and radiation fallout which destroys the Vatican and sends it into the sea. I see volcanoes, earthquake and also in the first half of the Tribulation this nuke blowing up the Vatican. Why does Satan do this? Because if only in name it uses the name of Christ, speaks of salvation, atonement, resurrection, the bread and so on.

1 Pet. 5.8 obviously is figurative because Satan is spirit. And Rev. 2.13 is obviously figurative because Satan is spirit. But with the Antichrist who is a real person sitting in the Temple and we are told not to measure the Temple tells us of the 3rd Temple.

2.13 “I know where thou dwellest”—The church sojourns on earth as a passer-by just as our Lord too was once a stranger in this world. How pitiful that the church now has lost her character as a sojourner and has instead a dwelling, that is, a position here. This shows how the church has become worldly, and her dwelling is in Pergamum—which means high tower, that is to say, having a superior position, influence and glory.

Judging by outward appearance, the church is most prosperous, possessing position, influence and glory; but in reality she has been corrupted and defeated. For although the duty of the church on earth is to battle against the enemy, she now owns a dwelling place where the seat of Satan is. In other words, Satan occupies a place in the church. How lamentable this is!

“In the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth”—In these seven letters, no believer’s name is ever mentioned except that of Antipas. Thus is affirmed the extreme importance of this believer. Why was Antipas killed? For the sake of holding fast the Lord’s name and not denying his faith. That is, he was killed because he faithfully testified to these facts.

“And thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith”—As long as Antipas lived, and through his faithful standing, the whole church stood firm. But after he was killed, the entire church was shaken.

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The "hour of tribulation" is not mentioned in either Matt:24:40-42 or Luke 21:36.
Just escaping the punishment at His coming.
Those who are His will be left standing safe and protected.

Matt:24 40-42 sais in 39 those taken at His coming are just like in the days of Noah. The unbelievers were taken by the flood while Noah stayed right here safe and sound.

Mt24:39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke sais the coming is like a snare to the worldy. To escape this snare we should not be drunk or worry or get involved with cares of this life. This way we are His when He comes and are able to stand before Him.

Luke 21:34-36And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 3:10 sais nothing about anyone going anywhere. Jesus is able to keep us safe.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

God promises a Christian won't be martyred in the Tribulation. Hence, such promise is given to those who keep the word of His patience to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world by the first rapture according to readiness. Since the section from Matt. 24.32-Matt. 25.30 is referring to Christians, both the "taken" and the "left" are saved. Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. So one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards, specifically at the start of the last trumpet (with 24 months remaining).

Certainly one will be taken and one will be left doesn't mean in Matt. 24.40-41 there is no Tribulation that then follows, but that there, indeed, will be. Hence, in verse 42 if you are watchful, you will be taken and not left to pass through the Tribulation. Amen.

Luke 21.36 speaks of specifically to escape all things thing which are to come upon the whole earth in the Tribulation if we are prayerful and watchful. Again, such promise can't be given since there will be many martyred Christians during the Tribulation, and they were not martyred because they were fleshly; more likely because they were spiritual Christians.

Rev. 3.10. Same holds true. To escape the hour of trial which is the Tribulation itself it is not a keeping through since God can't promise no martyrdom. Hence, it is being raptured "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven before the Tribulation starts. The Tribulation is from Rev. 7 on after the rapture.

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Again, I am not trying to avoid death.

I am waiting right here for Jesus Christ when He comes with power and glory for every eye to see.

Your verse has no one going above the clouds.

1Thes3:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Lord Himself shall DESCEND with all those believers who have ever died.
nothing about ASCENDING or secretly going to heaven.

And yes, this does give us comfort to know the dead, like my grandma, will be brought back with Him.

The problem is you have excluded yourself from the first rapture, thus you will lose also the reward of returning with Christ for the 1000 years. That's not a good thing. It's a bad thing. If you are saved you will be raptured at the last trumpet if you were not raptured at the first trumpet. That's not the issue before us right now. The issue is your carnality excluding yourself from the first rapture.

The secret rapture which you will accuse of being a "fake rapture" places you in the camp with Satan accusing the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10). All you need to do is remember in Matt. 24.40-42 both the taken and left are saved, so be watchful. The saved are not left after the last trumpet, but they are left after the first trumpet if they are not watchful. At the last trumpet God raptures all believers that were not taken at the first rapture. Luke 21.36 says be prayerful and watchful to escape the Tribulation for avoiding death can't be promised to saints that will be martyred in the Tribulation. Even the 5th Seal says wait ye a little longer for the rest of your brethren who will be martyred during the Tribulation. And Rev. 3.10 is clear the hour of trial can be avoided if you keep the word of His patience. Do all Christians do this? No. Could Paul, Peter, John and James have avoided death? No. They were in tribulation and Jesus said they would be put to death. He did not say to them, you can escape death if you are watchful, prayerful and keeping the word of His patience. How silly. They were let be martyred to show their authenticity to the church age.

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LOL i am sure the devil wants a lot of things like being scraped off the sole of my shoe.

Nothing is taken away from the hope of Christ's glorious return as King in glory and power to resurrect the just and put an end to the wicked.

No strongholds, just the truth.

Strong's G3952 - parousia

1) presence

2) the coming, arrival, advent

a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

You have no such hope since you reject it. Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

You forget, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best. There are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere.

There is a failure in your thought to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, "with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

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I am not seeking glory and those returning with Him are the dead in Christ rising first not the living.

I quoted scripture showing what is written.
No false teaching at all.

Matt.24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be
saved

Not all who are dead in Christ return with Christ, for not everyone who is saved returns with Christ to reign during the millennium. Many such as yourself, assuming you are saved, are teaching falsely, loving the world too much, etc. Not the 5 unwise virgins, but the 5 wise virgins enter the marriage feast of the millennial kingdom.You're confusing yourself with the latter.

I showed you how your beliefs are false. At best you will go into outer darkness for 1000 years. At worst the reason you have your attitude is because you pride yourself on returning with Christ no matter how carnal you may be who may be a false Christ since he is not Jesus of the Bible.

Enduring to the end is not by way of false teaching.
03-17-2011, 12:37 PM
foreversaved

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Originally Posted by son_flower

I didnt say you can't know when its near.
It is not FOR you to know times, as in date setting.

If Dad says its not for us to have a cookie before dinner there will always
be one who does it anyway.

The fig tree is the Jews? hardly.

I am glad you now agree you can know when it is near, but realize also you can know the day "right at the door" (Matt. 24.33), just not the hour (v.42). What God reveals through His word and by His Spirit is not date setting so why accuse falsely that it is? Back then they could not know the day, but Jesus said we could know the day after Israel becomes a nation (vv.32,33). With certainty of 6.9 trillion to 1 we know the Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022. You really can't ask for better signs. Even Genesis says we are to observe the signs in the heavens. Are you calling God a liar? It says the same in Luke. The fig tree always represents Israel. Always! The fig tree represents the Jews (Jer. 24.2,5,8). God is not leaving us in the dark about who the fig tree is. When Jesus cursed the fig tree for not having leaves He was blaming Israel. He wasn't accusing Canada or Japan. How silly. The trees represent the nations. The fig tree represents Israel. No exceptions! It's time you wake up!

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No man" means "no man". Only the Father.
Jesus meant exactly what He said His words will not pass away so He they still stand for all time. It is true back then it is true today He made no such changes.

I don't know when the 1000 years ends. You keep misreading and avoiding this point, that verse 36 follows verse 35 referring to the end of the 1000 years, not to when Jesus returns or the Tribulation that precede the 1000 years. Back then and today it is true you could not know when the 1000 years ends, but that is not what we are discussing here. We are talking about the start of the Tribulation, end of the Tribulation, when first rapture takes place and when Jesus steps down on the mount of olives. These things before the 1000 years we can know just as Jesus said we are to observe the signs in the heavens to know and that we can know when Israel becomes a nation again (Matt. 24.32). Praise the Lord! Your Jesus doesn't allow for this, but your Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.

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We trust Jesus. Prognostications are predictions. That was your OP, not mine.

Daniel had a prediction when the Messiah would be cut off, but you say we are not allowed to have prognostications. You're just like Satan accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10 even though 1/3 of the Bible is prophecy. The reason the saints are given Revelation is to know when the Tribulation will take place and are not caught unprepared.

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Again none of those say anything about an earthly temple.
We are not reigning in the flesh.

He returns just as He left, able to walk through walls. We will be like the angels.
They do not dwell in earthly houses.

Rev says thrones no mention of your temple made of hands.
Your own idea.

They all speak of the Temple on earth because Jesus returns in Person and reigns on earth. But where? The Temple of course. Not from Antarctica or Greenland or Nepal. That's funny. Even if you knew nothing else you know there would need to be the Temple for Jesus to reign in from Judah since Jesus is the "Lion of Judah" (Rev. 5.5). Obviously, you worship another. Observe 3 facts: 1) Israel plans to build the Temple soon; 2) 2 Thess. 2.4 speaks of Antichrist sitting in the Temple calling himself God; 3) Rev. 11.2 the court outside the Temple measure it not during the Tribulation because Israel is overrun at that time. Why does Jesus return on Tisha B'Av on the 2,520 day from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015? Because Tisha B'Av is important to Jesus. It is the day His first and 2nd Temple were destroyed. The Third Temple will never be destroyed, because Jesus reigns from it for 1000 years.

How are we to reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26) if not in person in our newly resurrected bodies? We will not be spirits like angels for we remain soulical beings with a spirit and a body. The angels in heaven remain in heaven. We do live in heaven but heaven and earth come together for the New City. The physical city in eternity future is physical and so shall be the Temple on earth during the millennium. Just as the New City will be built by us for the New Earth, so shall the Temple for the millennium. The thrones are on earth, not in heaven like the thrones of the 24 archangels in Revelation 4 are in heaven.

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If He wasnt killed there would be no new covenant. But there is. Because He died on the cross.

He did more than kick out the money changers. Jerusalem was flattened to the ground. Old covenant is over and done.

Nonetheless, Jesus would have reigned in the Temple if the Jews did not kill Him. The Old Covenant is not returned to for the Tribulation and Millennium. That's your misunderstanding of chiliasm taught exclusively by the church fathers, that is, premillennialism. It's a commonly labeled accusation but has no basis in reality. The millennial kingdom, of course has the Temple, but it is not a return to animal sacrifices for example. How silly. Jesus was our once-for-all sacrifice. Amen.

The question you should ask yourself is why does Jesus have a millennial kingdom before eternity future in the New City? Because even when Jesus returns there is still some hidden sin left for the 1000 years. That's why Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years to show not only that he will never repent but that man still had yet some hidden sin. It is also the time of recompense for rewards given to those in Christ who overcometh.

Non-overcomer believers lose this reward in outer darkness, outside the light of reward of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. This accountability for Christians. Though a Christian can't lose eternal life, he can lose the reward of returning to reign with Christ. As well, you would be excluded from the first rapture before the Tribulation that is according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10).

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That is so obvious that John forgot to write it?

The New City does have mention of a temple.
Its the Lamb and its what i already said.
I do believe the Word its yours i dont believe.
You are the one saying we have some new temple built by the unbelieving anti Jesus Jews.

John did not forget to write about it. What makes you think that? I gave you the verse written down by John (Rev. 21.22). You have a word that is not God's word and you are reflecting what you call the Word which is not the Word. You are waiting for another Christ, not the Christ of the Bible.

Who better knows all the intricacies of the design for the Third Temple than the Jews? Yes, the Jews are the ones who build the Temple; though I am sure some modifications will be made to it when Jesus returns. Imagine what it will be like. He will have a media center to communicate to the world with.

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What physical temple? Its gone. It was torn down almost 2000 years ago.
No confusion here.

We are now the temple of God. The new coveanant dwelling place.
2 Thess 2.4 sais nothing about "AntiChrist" nor Third Temple. All your own idea.
Rev. 11:12 does not say "great tribulation" anywhere in it

It's the Third Temple not the 2nd Temple. In the OT people were the temple of God, just as those in Christ today are. 2 Thess. 2.,34 say, "That man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." To show to the world outwardly and to claim to be God to the world, you would need a platform which is the Temple. This son of perdition is the Antichrist. Only two were called sons of perdition in the Bible: Nero and Judas. These were the two sons of perdition who will be revived for the Tribulation as the first beast the Antichrist and second beast the False Prophet. I didn't mention anything about Rev. 11.12. Rev. 11.12 is talking about the Two Witnesses Enoch and Elijah. Rev. 11.2 is talking about the Great Tribulation which we know to be 42 months: "But the court which is outside the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." Your fleshly petty legalisms are your own idea. It's like you are an unethical lawyer trying to get your client, yourself even, off on some technicality. But your attempts have all been thwarted because Jesus is our advocate and proves the case.

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Satan is not even mentioned in Rev 9. lol

the beast is clearly not a man and 666 is the love of money
i am not surprised by the spirit of antichrist at all.

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 9.1). Who is the "star fall from heaven"?

The Great Tribulation begins at the fifth trumpet since this is a trumpet of woe.

9.1 “. . . a star”—This star cannot be interpreted as a literal star as is the case with the star mentioned in 8.10, because the star here is able to receive the key to the pit of the abyss and to open it. Who is this star? None but Satan himself.

“From heaven fallen unto the earth”—The word “fallen” in the original is the same as the phrase “cast down” in 12.9. “Star” in the Scriptures has reference to angel. In Job we find this verse: “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” (38.7). Here in Job we are definitely told that the stars stand for the angels in heaven.
Being cast down, this angel cannot be a good one, although as we learn from the apostle he often disguises himself as an angel of light to deceive men (2 Cor. 11.14).

The three and a half years mentioned at various places in the book of Revelation begin and end at the same time. Chapters 11.2-3, 12.6-14, and 13.5 are all simultaneous. The casting down of the star happens at the fifth trumpet, which in turn marks the beginning of the 42 months (the Great Tribulation).

The beast is clearly a man, the Antichrist, Satan's prized possession. He is a man who exalts himself in th Temple and calls himself God. Sorry no aliens here. Neron Caesar is resurrected.
The number of a man to identify the man is 666. Neron Kaisar in Aramaic is 666. Of the 5 fallen Caesars only Nero's name comes to 666 so we know who this Antichrist is when Satan releases him from the pit.

Since you will welcome with open arms the Antichrist, the prince of the people (Rev. 9.27) who is to come, not sure how someone could consider you a Christian. If you deny his existence then you will accept him or be deceived by him. Either way, not good for you at all. You have the spirit of antichrist.

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because there are many.... consummate an ultimate antichrist??
scripture?? none.
sounds more like a movie script

Sounds like you are ready to accept the Antichrist with open arms. If you add up all the antichrists in history and were to ask yourself who is the ultimate antichrist that would be the Antichrist. That's reality! Hitler was close to that ultimate Antichrist. Nero is the ultimate. He killed Christians his family members.

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the reason it says what it says is because it means what it says.
that there are many antichrists

Nero from the bottomless pit??
you sure do come up with some strange ideas.
no scripture at all for that.

I do not in any way deny the existence of antichrist. I posted 3 scriptures
describing him so dont fear its bad for the heart.

It says there are many antichrists and the Antichrist. Nero is in the pit. He is dead. He is not in heaven, nor is he in Hell, for nobody is in Hell yet. The Antichrist and False Prophet will be the first two to go to Hell. The pit will be opened the Bible says. That which is opened will be released. Why would God give Satan the key to the pit and yet nothing be realased? You're not making any sense. Read Rev. 9.3.

All that arguing against the Antichrist, now you agree there is an Antichrist? If you agreed there was an Antichrist before then why did you argue against him existing? You're not making any sense. Sounds like you are backtracking what you said because you realize you were wrong and your position was untenable. But instead of repenting, you are trying to cover your tracks. I will just pull those quotes from you. You're embarrassing yourself. You posted no Scripture for the existence of the Antichrist, but were trying to do just the opposite. You're a liar. You were trying to defend there being no Antichrist just antichrists. Shame on you!

Once I told you that you would be deceived by the Antichrist because I said you denied his existence, you changed your tune. I believe you will be overtaken by him, because you will for eternity reject Jesus returning to reign on earth for the 1000 years in the Temple even when He is doing it if were still alive at that time Oct. 22, 2022.

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There is no physical temple anymore period.
Its over with. Destroyed. Ineffectual.
Grasp that.

If a spirit can wrestle against its flesh, it can certainly do a simple thing like "sitteth"

Since the Temple is mentioned in Revelation and by Paul then there will be the 3rd Temple. Since you reject Jesus who will reign on earth in the Temple, you worship Antichrist and will reject Jesus. Are you going to take the mark of the beast also?

Antichrist exalteth himself as God to the whole world openly and outwardly as he sits in the Temple, newly constructed. This is more than sitting in one's spirit. Such a thing is televised.

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Where are you getting Alaska and Haiti??
Israel is the new covenant Christians.
We are the center.

You missed the point. I was mocking you for rejecting God's promise to Israel to be the center of all nations in your anti-semetic tone. The true Jew is the Christian, but Israel is a nation God promises to keep a remnant; hence, 144,000 flee in the wilderness when Israel is overrun for 42 months or 1260 days.

Don't confuse the body of Christ with the presence of Jesus on earth reigning. From the Head which is Jesus to the body His bride, those who overcometh shall reign over the nations (Rev. 2.26) in person. You don't believe this because you have no faith.

You've created some mutually exclusive legalisms for yourself in your replacement theology.

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LOL the old covenant temple is GONE. The new covenant is NOW not just in the millennium.
We are the temple. Antichristian Jews are not Israel they are the old that killed Messiah remember?

The millennial kingdom is a new dispensation. It is no longer the mystery age of the Church, for in the millennial kingdom those who reign will be overcomers the Old Testament Saints as well as the spiritual Christians from this age.

Christians are the temple of God just as Old Testament Saints were. The reason why there is no physical Temple the past 2000 years of the church age is because God's judgment is upon Israel for rejecting Him. But this will not always be so. At the end of this age, the Temple will be restored, not the 2nd Temple, but as the 3rd and final Temple that will henceforth never be destroyed.

Just as Canada and Russia and Vietnam are nations so is Israel which will all be judged as either sheep nations or goat nations (Matt. 25.31-46). The difference is God has a promise to Israel (Rev. 15.18) to be the center of all nations. While you fight this and will surely lose, fighting against our little brother, God will be victorious, Israel will be preserved as a nation, and you will die in your sins in hostility to God's chosen people, the nation of Israel, and His body of Christ. The body you are part of are historicists and anti-semites. God uses Israel to show the nations are against Him as they come against Israel, but God also shows His immutable power that even after they attack, Israel shall remain as God always keeps His promise. Praise the Lord! Amen.

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coming from someone who thinks satan has the ability to
reincarnate dead Nero ... this makes no sense.

Everything I said was true ... Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age-7 church periods. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 5 recounts the atonement and resurrection. The 1st Seal recounts the cross. The Seals are the past 20 centuries. It is only the 5th Seal and 6th Seal which are truly future right before the first rapture (Rev. 7.9) and the Tribulation beginning the first trumpet (8.7ff). Rev. chapters 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from chapters 7 to 11 JUST LIKE Genesis 2 gives the details of Gen. 1.

You have no faith to believe this. God allows Nero to be resurrected even though you don't believe the resurrection to place His wrath upon the nations. It doesn't happen by magic. You make no sense.

In Revelation 17 the Antichrist is one of the 5 fallen Caesars, which we have already shown only Nero's name comes to 666 (Rev. 13.18). He is also said to be not the sixth at the time of John's writing which was Domitian. We are also told, the seventh will be here a short while (Prince William crowned King William V at the age of 33 in 2015 or as Princess Diana called him Will because of his name Will I AM or I AM VI VI VI. This forerunner, the seventh, will be here a short while, because an attempt on his life will take place, go into a coma of sorts, and it is at that time Nero inhabits his body as the eighth. The eighth is one of the 5, of the seven (Rev. 17.10,11). This is Satan's ultimate deception! Many who do not have faith in the supernatural workings of Satan will not believe what I have said. They are already deceived.

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Actually it would only require an Old Testament.

Actually it would require great historians to place it correctly which none are able to do in agreement, that's why you would need great historians to figure it out if your theory was true. Nobody can though agree on how to historically place the book of Revelation; hence, it is future.

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Its the Revelation of Jesus Christ, the Alpha and Omega. not Antichrist.

You're confusing spiritual revelation of Jesus Christ given to Christians in their daily lives with the end book of the 66 books of God's word, Genesis being the first which is itself revelation too. Necessarily end-times make mention of the Antichrist because this will be the time of his rise to power. To leave that out would be a grave mistake.

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At the time of Johns writing, those 7 Churches were 7 real Churches in 7 real cities that Jesus told John to send the book to.

Of course those 7 churches were real church localities, but they also depict the church age which is why they were mentioned in Revelation for the church age to understand problems we will go through. Interestingly the first three church periods are no longer with us (the third was Constantine's church), but with the 4th which was Thyatira which represents the very few Christians who may be in the Roman Church is still with us today (also see as the great harlot that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications, Rev. 14.8; 17).
03-17-2011, 03:07 PM
foreversaved

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Originally Posted by son_flower

You said a missile would cause an earthquake.

"You see"... sounds like Ms cleo

You're weird. You keep accusing me of saying a missile would cause an earthquake. Where did I say that? When people see you misread and misrepresent, they don't want to be like you.

"Star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp...the star is called Wormwood" (Rev. 8.10,11). Since no other thing fits this description than a nuclear missile blowing up the Vatican, this is more than just 'you see'.

There is a volcano and and earthquake, but why think they are caused by the nuclear blast? Revelation 17 takes place in the first half of the Tribulation pertaining to religious Rome which the Antichrist destroys, and Revelation 18 pertains to political Rome which will be destroyed in the second half of the Tribulation.

We see the Vatican destroyed: "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire" (Rev. 17.16). That very "fire" that eats her flesh is a nuclear blast on the Vatican. This gives way to the 666th Pope, Peter of Rome, in that prophecy that says the Roman Church will be destroyed. There is only one Cardinal alive today whose name is Peter. He will be the 666th Pope when the Vatican is nuked somewhere from 2016 to 2019.

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so satan is a figure of speech and not a real enemy.
He only tempted Eve, accused Job, tempted Jesus, was thrown out of heaven, and has a seat here, all just as a figure of speech.

Yet the scripture that said antichrist is a spirit is not really a spirit but really a man?

Why think Satan is not a real being? You're missing the point. The figurative point made is that when giving him descriptions of walking on earth or what have you, he does not actually do so because he has no physical body. He uses the body of the Antichrist to perform his dastardly deeds. The demon that went into the serpent is doable because demons are disembodied spirits that seek to inhabit bodies. Fallen angels like Lucifer can't do that. They can only plant suggestions and tempt souls as he communicates by spirit and tries to gain strongholds in your mind.

Satan is the god of this world, he doesn't have a seat here. Where is his seat? Why don't we see him on television if he is sitting his seat? You're not thinking straight.

The spirit of antichrist are those who are hostile to Christ. And there are many antichrists, but only one Antichrist Nero who will sit in the Temple on earth and declares by television to the world he is God. He's not doing that quietly in our spirits, but this is an open declaration to the world in the newly constructed Temple in 2 Thess. 2.4 and Rev. 11.2.

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Don't worry according to you he is just a figure of speech.

That reflects badly on you when you need to form your arguments by sinning bearing false witness. I believe Satan is a real being and Antichrist is a real human, but Satan can't walk the earth physically because he is spirit. You're not too bright are you?

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Where did He promise that?

God promises Christians won't be martyred in the Tribulation, because they will be raptured before the Tribulation IF they keep the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10). I gave this to you already.

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Matt 24:51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That doesn't sound much like being saved.

God often uses strong words for the saved. I appreciate how you misread God's word, which continually shows you are wrong and worshiping a false Christ.

Is the evil servant a Christian? He is indeed a Christian, a saved person. The reasons for this conclusion are as follows: (a) The evil servant is none other than the same servant spoken of in verse 45 whom the Lord has set over His household. The Lord’s appointment is not like human ordination, for the latter can be wrong. The Lord cannot appoint a wrong person; nevertheless, whether the servant is faithful or evil depends entirely on how that person performs. (b) The evil servant calls the Lord “my Lord”—thus proving his personal relationship with Him. And such confession is from “his heart” (to confess merely with the mouth may not be dependable). On this point see also Rom. 10.9-10 and 1 Corinthians 12.3 (c) The evil servant not only believes in the Lord but also waits for His return. His fault is in thinking his Lord will tarry. An unsaved person can never think such a thing in his heart.

In spite of the above three decisive reasons, there are still many people who hold the view that on the basis of (a) his conduct, (b) his judgment, and (c) his punishment, this evil servant is unsaved. Those who hold this interpretation argue these three points as follows: (a) If he is saved, how can he ever beat his fellow servants and eat and drink with the drunkards? In reply, let it be said that actually a saved Christian is still capable of committing all kinds of sins after regeneration. Let us recall that the person who committed the heinous sin of incest in 1 Corinthians 5 was a born-again believer! (b) The Lord appoints this evil servant’s portion with the hypocrites. May we state in reply that this simply indicates that he as a believer is as hypocritical as are the unbelieving hypocrites. It is made even clearer in Luke 12: “Appoint his portion with the unfaithful [original, “unbelievers’]” (v.46). He is therefore a believer who will share his portion with the unbelievers. He shall have his false works burnt off by the lake of fire and then cast into outer darkness to lose the reward of reigning for 1000 years; (c) “Cut him asunder” is not a phrase to be taken literally, for how can the servant subsequently weep and gnash his teeth if he has physically been cut into two? What is signified here by such a phrase is most likely an action which will cause him to be separated temporarily from the Lord, i.e. outer darkness. Compare Matthew’s account with that found in Luke 12.47-48 where we are told that the evil servant shall be beaten with many stripes. To be beaten is not to perish, for the Lord’s sheep shall never perish (see John 10.27-28).

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There isn't. The dead and alive meet together in the air.

But you forget what was said...

Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

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No unnecessary repetition. Its clarification to eliminate your implication.
The dead rise first, come back with Jesus in the clouds, those alive meet them in the air.
Simple.

You haven't shown how the clarification eliminates what I said that obviously those who alive are left, skirting over your assertion. Your implication is eliminated though by the clarification since if such redundancy were true then God would be redundantly nonsensical, since obviously those who are alive are left and leave you still unable to explain away the verses that are conditional statements for the first rapture according to readiness.

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Wow all that from a simple "we". Paul said "we" because unlike you, he did not know the day or hour.

Not all that from a simple "we"; rather, those who claim "we" means Paul must have been raptured in his day can't hang their hat on such a claim by him saying "we". You totally missed that point that Paul was not saying he would be raptured befor the Tribulation, for if he was an overcomer only then would he be raptured ahead and not left. When Paul is seeking for the prize of the goal, he is not thinking he might lose salvation, but hoping he could be included in the first rapture as well as resurrection. The first resurrection is the reigning for 1000 years. The first rapture is the rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet of the Tribulation starts (8.7ff). Paul said, "Then we which are alive and left shall be caught up together..." (1 Thess. 4.17) has nothing to do with the day or the hour so why bring that up? That's a separate issue of knowing the exact day. Moreover, again, we see you need to sin bearing false witness, because obviously time and again I have said we can't know the hour just like Matt. 24.42 says, but that we can know the day right at the door (Matt. 24.33) just like Jesus said. We know there are 360 days a year and 7 years in Daniel's last seven and that there are 2,520 days from Sept. 14, 2015 Feast of Trumpets (First Rapture) to Aug. 7, 2022 Tisha B'Av (all about His reign in the Temple). This is no issue for spiritual Christians. You don't believe Him. I do.

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No tribulation after the coming of the Son of man. It says explicitly in vs29 immediately AFTER the tribulation.
But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be
In the days of Noah, the wicked were taken and Noah stayed.

You misread what I said: "Certainly one will be take and one will be left doesn't mean in Matt. 24.40-41 there is no Tribulation that then follows, but that there, indeed, will be. Hence, in verse 42 if you are watchful, you will be taken and not left to pass through the Tribulation. Amen." As you can see now I wasn't saying there was no Tribulation after the Son of Man so how do you come up with that accusation? I was saying there is is a Tribulation after the first rapture in Matt. 24.40-42. The coming of the Son of Man is His parousia doesn't begin when He steps down but when He first meets the overcomers at the throne at the start of the Tribulation. His parousia extends from that point to coming down on the cloud then through the cloud through the seven years, meeting the saints in the air at the last trumpet then after that 24 months later, stepping down on the mount of olives (Zech. 14.4). Remember, He returns just as He left to the clouds (Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7).

You also misread Matt. 24.29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." After the Tribulation then Jesus steps down. This verse doesn't say there is a Tribulation after Jesus returns but that after the Tribulation the darkening of the moon and sun occurs which is due to WW III and cloud cover. These are not solar or lunar eclipses as are in Rev. 6.12 before the Tribulation, the great and terrible day of the Lord (Joel 2.31).

The wicked were swept away, not taken as it were, whereas those who keep the word of His patience, were watchful and prayerful are "taken" (Matt. 24.40-41) and not "left" (1 Thes. 4.17). Be watchful or you will be left. How can you even watch if you are not saved? "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Matt. 24.42). A Christian is told to watch because there are consequences if he does not. Otherwise you are antinomian. If he is not watchful, he won't be taken. God can't promise no martyrdom in the Tribulation to believers, so He can't promise us we will be left or taken by the world and caught in its crossfire, but He can promise us we will be taken to the throne if we are watchful and prayerful. Praise the Lord! Remember, this is speaking to Christians to be taken or left because it is to those who know the the Lord not to those who do not: "our Lord". The world does not know Jesus. They have no relationship with Him.

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Luke is not talking about escaping the tribulation. He says specifically this is the wrath on the wicked at the coming of the Son of man. for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

who shall escape and be worthy to STAND before the Son of man?

those who pray and stay sober and watch.

Guess what? the martyrs will be coming back with Him!

The verse you quoted is not talking about escaping the Tribulation, but Luke 21.34-36 is. Those first raptured will include three groups: 144,000 virgin Christian firstfruits alive or sleeping; martyrs the past 20 centuries; overcomers alive at the first rapture (about 1/7th).

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

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Escaping wrath is not Gods protection of His own?
what??
because of Martyrdom? the martyrs were actually kept through God.
LOL
that is what makes you a Martyr.

Why isn't escaping the wrath, God's protection of His own? What? You're not making sense. Those who are first raptured for keeping the word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) do escape the hour of trial. Since the Bible says there will be many martyred believers during the Tribulation, obviously, God can't promise such escape once one a believer is in the Tribulation just as the Smyrna church period encountered great martyrdom in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. This martyrdom is an overcoming itself. People get hit in the crossfire. The same is true of Christians. In fact the Antichrist will go out of his way to kill Christians like the people of the prince did in the Smyrna church period and how the Roman Church killed many Christians.

The martyrs were not kept through the tribulation. They were killed. They are martyrs. Hence, they will be raptured at the first rapture with living overcomers. This is what is meant by the 5th Seal when they are given white robes for their righteousness and told to wait a little longer for the rest of the brethren who will be martyred during the Tribulation.

You are not kept by being killed. Death is no blessing. God doesn't want you to be killed. Shame on you!

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LOL i don't need rapture. Those who endure till the end will be saved.

if i die for Him before the end i am still saved.

No problem. No carnal thinking involved.
Just plain old patience of the saints.

Enduring to the end is not by teaching falsely so you are not enduring, but you harbor lies in your heart. If you died with Christ you are indeed saved, but because you take away the hope of the Church, for with that hope is the hope of being first raptured, firstfruits, you will be excluded from the first rapture and lose the reward of reigning with Christ for 1000 years. That will discipline you and make you ready for the New City. 1000 years is a long time to lose the reward.

If you are born-again truly, you can't lose salvation and eternal life. Enduring to the end is not to keep yourself saved and prevent yourself from going to Hell (non-OSAS is heresy of salvation by works, but we are not saved by works lest any man should boast). Enduring to the end is unto rewards for the first rapture and first resurrection reign for 1000 years.

Your carnal thinking is carnally believing things that are not true, thus living fleshly and God judges you for this by not rapturing you at the first rapture and placing you into outer darkness for 1000 years. Even carnal Christians know this, so the problem might not be that you prefer to be a carnal Christian but that you are not even saved, worshiping a false Christ.

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I am not accusing saints, i am accusing satan. its his lie.

Since Matt. 24.42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 are clearly conditional statements for believers, you can know for certain the first rapture is a partial one. Since you believe any such thing is from Satan, accusing God's design, then when a couple million vanish from the planet Sept. 14, 2015 Feast of Trumpets, naturally you will accuse them of being a "fake rapture," fulfilling the Scriptures that along with Satan you are accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10). You would not be a Christian.

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wrong. Already covered that twice.
Taken like the days of Noah. Only Noah was saved.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are saved.

Already covered more than twice. Since both the taken and the left are spoken to as having their Lord or "your Lord" and escaping death cannot be promised to believers once they are in the Tribulation, you're confusing those swept up in the world with the first rapture according to readiness.

For the elects sake we see a first rapture. It is in fact this first rapture that starts off the Tribulation because as a result Satan knows his time is short and reacts. The 144,000 is 6000 year-days x 24 hours a day. In other words, God is saying the pinnacle is reached. While first rapture is according to readiness, the last trumpet rapture and resurrection is according to completion for those who are "alive" and "left," not taken at the first rapture.

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Do all Christians keep the Word of patience? NO. so they wont escape the hour of trial.
Where does it say they escape death???

Paul, John, Peter, all of them are SAVED.
they kept the Word and passed the test.

Death has no hold over the saved.

Since in the Tribulation there will be many martyred Christians, how can you think a trial excludes death always? Did John, Peter and Paul escape trial? No of course not, they were martyred. God can't promise you won't be martyred during the Tribulation if you are in it, but He can promise you will be raptured alive if you are alive at the first rapture and you kept the word of His patience.

Paul, John and Peter kept the word of His patience (passed the test) but did not escape the trial, yet we are told if you keep the word of His patience you will escape the trial. You're not making sense. In the Tribulation Christians cannot escape the hour of trial. But at the start of the Tribulation you can escape the HOUR of Trial by being first raptured. Praise the Lord! As an Apostle, I have told you the truth. Death took their lives, but as martyrs they will be raptured alive at the first rapture, except for John since I think John died of natural causes, so he will be raptured at the last trumpet with the rest of the saints and those resting.

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It does not say "looking for the blessed hope of escaping the tribulation"

The hope is His appearing.

The hope is in not going through the Hour of trial and His appearing "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts with its first trumpet first (8.7ff). We are all going to see the Lord, but this is a special seeing if you are an overcomer. Hence, the unique hope and not appointed unto wrath, specifically the bowls of wrath in the last 24 months of the 7th trumpet.

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I have the hope of the blessed appearing of Christ to destroy satan.
I rebuke antichrist he is under my feet.

2Thess 2:8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whomthe Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming :

No blessed hope of escape is written.

You are waiting for the Antichrist because he must come first before the blessed appearing. That's just a fact. Whereas Christians have the hope of His blessed appearing before the Antichrist comes on the scene. Since you take away this hope you are like Satan taking away this hope. The blessed hope is of escaping the Hour of Trial (Rev. 3.10) as well as the destruction of the Antichrist. Don't be a petty legalizer. These are not mutually exclusive events. You tend to act like a unethical lawyer when you read the Scriptures. You have no blessed hope of seeing the Lord Jesus before seeing Antichrist. How sad for you this is the way you want to live your life.

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This is why you should watch and pray and stay sober and not set those silly dates because ONLY the Father knows .

And besides that, you should not be 'living evilly' you could get struck by lightning at any time.

Technically, for most people who do not get struck by lightening could live evilly up to the last day according to your theory. Your view is wrong.

The Father gave these dates in His word which you reject. Nowhere does it say in Scripture we are not to observe the signs in the heavens and can't know after Israel becomes a nation. Praise the Lord we do know "right at the door" (Matt. 24.33) by these signs in the heavens we are told to watch out for. Why keep avoiding this? Counting down 2,520 days from first rapture we know. We even know the day of the first rapture, though most Christians will not be sure about this, so God speaks to them more generally and says to them, if you are not observing the signs in the heavens and are not watchful but preserving your temple, then this day will not come upon you like a thief in the night. Prepare your temple so your house is not broken into as the good thief comes to steal the best first. It is much better to be first raptured and to be included in the first resurrection reign than it is to pass through the Tribulation.

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a thief comes to those not watching and leaving the door open.

Admittedly, you are not watching since you admit you reject these signs in the heavens which are well delineated for us with odds of 6.9 trillion to 1.

Not sure how your open door theory applies here. His door of salvation has been open all this time.

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nope i distinguish them just fine.
one is a secret and occult the other is bold for every eye to see and His name is Faithful and True.

Not all the dead in Christ return with Him?? you made that up

The 5 wise virgins sit tight and don't go anywhere. The other 5 are left out all together.
He does not know them.

Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

scripture is never confusing.

There is no verse that says watch therefore, you do knot know the day or the hour. There are verses that say you don't know the hour so watch. And there are verses that say you don't know the hour or day of the end of the 1000 years, but in connection with that they don't say therefore watch. God is not asking you to watch out for the end of the 1000 years. It's over a thousand years away. Funny. Time to wake up!

The 1st woe is 5 months. The 2nd 2 woe is 13 months, leaving 24 months for the 3rd woe. Since we see raptured saints in Rev. 11.15 at the start of the 7th trumpet of 7 bowls, we know the 7th trumpet rapture and resurrection occurs at that time with 24 months remaining. This is coming for the saints. 24 months later when Jesus steps down on the mount of olives He comes with the saints (Jude 14,15). The first rapture is also a coming for the saints and not with the saints. Since you reject this you are in the occult, taking away the hope of the Church. Therein lies your problem that Christians don't have. All you have to look forward to is the Antichrist who much precede Christ in your view. How sad for you that you are not allowed to be raptured "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the Tribulation starts (8.7ff).

That's right. Not all the dead in Christ return to reign for 1000 years. Remember, Rev. 2.26 says only those who overcometh reign over the nations. Do all Christians qualify into Rev. 20.4-6? Nope. You're not thinking straight because of your occult teachings you're projecting.

The 5 unwise virgins have oil of the Holy Spirit in their lamps just not their vessels (infilling of the Holy Spirit). They are of the same class as virgins so they are saved, but they would not be "taken" at the first rapture, nor enter the marriage feast of the millennial kingdom with the 5 wise. They are all resurrected and raptured by the time of the 7th trumpet, but only the 5 wise virgins return to the marriage feast and reign over the nations for 1000 years as kings and priests. You have no faith to believe this because you are not my brother in Christ.

“I know you not”—Will the Lord ever say to the saved that He does not know them? However, we need to examine this answer of our Lord’s very carefully:

(1)”But he answered and said”—The word “but” shows that the answer is unusual and out of all expectation. In Luke 15.22 the same word indicates how totally unthought-of, unhoped-for, and unexpected by the prodigal son were the father’s words to his servants. The word “but” here proves that the “know not” is not an ordinary not knowing.

(2) The Lord knows all who are saved (2 Tim. 2.19, Gal. 4.9, John 10.14). Two Greek words are used for “know” in the New Testament: ginosko and oida. The former signifies an objective knowledge while the latter signifies a subjective and deeper knowledge. Now oida is the Greek word employed here by the Lord.

(3) How is oida used in the Scriptures? It is recognizably employed to mean approve, commend, endorse, or applaud. What follows are a few examples from the New Testament which illustrate the use of this Greek word. In each example, the verb “to know” or “to not know” is oida or its variant. “In the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not” (John 1.26). In this situation, of course, the Jews know (ginosko) the Lord, but they do not really know (oida) Him because they do not love Him. “I knew him not” (John 1.31). Since John and the Lord Jesus are cousins, the Baptist certainly knows Jesus objectively (ginosko) but not subjectively (oida)—that is to say, John does not know Him deeply. “Ye know neither me, nor my Father” (John 8.19). Though the Jews know (ginosko) the Lord quite well externally, they do not approve of Him nor do they receive Him. “I know you not whence ye are” (spoken twice in Luke 13.22-30). Here the Lord speaks of the situation in the kingdom. Some who have eaten and drunk with the Lord and have also heard Him teaching in their streets doubtless know objectively (ginosko) the Lord well, yet they are referred to by the Lord as “workers of iniquity”—a phrase which in the original is worded as “workers of unrighteousness”—that is to say, those who do not walk according to rule. “Ye know the house of Stephanas” (1 Cor. 16.15). The Corinthian believers know deeply (oida) and not just know objectively (ginosko) the house of Stephanas. Hence from all these examples we learn that oida is subjective knowing of a person, which implies a sense of trust.

(4) “Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10.33; cf. also Luke 12.9). These two instances of the word “deny” have reference to things in the kingdom. Secret Christians will not perish, yet neither will they be approved by the Lord in the kingdom. “Deny” (arneomai) is to not know (in the oida sense of not knowing) (see Matt. 26.70). It is to contradict, refute, or overturn.

(5) There are similar examples of this matter of knowing and not knowing in the Old Testament, as for instance in 1 Samuel 3.7 (“Now Samuel did not yet know Jehovah”) wherein Samuel had indeed objectively known Jehovah, but he had yet to know the Lord in a subjective way.

(6) The reward of the kingdom is based purely on righteousness. For the Lord to deny has about it the flavor of righteousness. Just as a judge must ask the name of the offender even if the latter is his own son, so the denial here in Matthew 25.12 (“I know you not”) refers to the action and not to the person. It means the Lord cannot accept or approve.

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On the contrary. You showed only your theory and predictions of missiles and incarnation of Nero lol,
antichrist Jews building an unclean temple for Christ to live in
no scripture to show your secret snatching to heaven as an escape of testing

Those who endure till the end will be saved.

Those who endure to the end doesn't mean you could lose salvation but that you could lose the reward of the first rapture and first resurrection reign for 1000 years over the nations. Non-OSAS is a Roman Catholic heresy. Siding with that heresy is not enduring nor indearing.

Since all that I said was evidenced, Satan laughs with you at me but he can't overturn the data. You could not find an alternative fitting for the fire from the star falling and wormwood. You could not overturn the number of a man whose numbers comes to 666 that only Nero fits as one of the five fallen Caesars. Denying the resurrection that all will be resurrected is another problem you have, and you could not overturn the conditional statements for the first rapture. Why would those who have already overcometh need further testing? You're not making any sense. Jews know how to build the Temple. It needs no particular design other than the Old Testament design. Jews know how to do this and a remnant will be the nation of Israel in the millennial kingdom. You are just an anti-semite is all. Replacement theology led to the holocaust of the Jews. God's wrath is upon you.

Other proofs as follows:

(1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

(2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.

(3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

The Scriptures are very easy to understand most times, but if you have some bias or predilection, you will run into all kinds of problems (as you do).
03-18-2011, 02:15 AM
foreversaved

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Originally Posted by son_flower

Yes sorry you did not say the missile causes the earthquake.
You only said a missile will be a catalyst.
a star falling from heaven is the nuke.

I said a missile that hits the dome on the rock could be the catalyst for tearing down the dome on the rock. This is not the same missile that nukes the Vatican seen in Rev. 8: "there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp...the name of the star is called Wormwood" (vv.10,11). The nuke would occur in the first half of the Tribulation (first four trumpets), but the missile from Islam that could hit the dome by accident would happen perhaps in 2013 so the Temple is completed by 2016 within the first year of the Tribulation and with 2300 days left into the Tribulation (Dan. 8.14).

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He has a spirit body. Spirit bodies can walk, fly, sit, tempt, fight and more

Satan can't walk on earth like you and I can because he is a spirit being. That's the point. But the Antichrist can because the Antichrist is a person. Hence, the Antichrist sitteth in the Temple. Humans can't sit in the Temple figuratively, but physically.

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antichrist uses MANY to perform his deeds

Sure the Antichrist will use many, but what I said was Satan uses the Antichrist. The Antichrist is Satan's ultimate evil tool.

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False:

Luke22:3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

The evil spirit is in every unregenerated person's spirit, having a grip on it, and not the Holy Spirit. Satan went into Judas by planting a suggestion in his mind. Satan did not actually demonically possess him because Satan is not a disembodied spirit demon. Satan could use a demon to demonically possess Judas, but Satan can't possess the body himself. Satan is not a disembodied spirit. For example, Nero Antichrist will be disembodied and take over the body of the forerunner. Most people I guess don't understand how this works so I can see why you are having troubles understanding.

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Of course you can't see him he is of the invisible realm like all angels.

col 1:16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or all things were created by him, and for him:

John says his seat is here:
Rev 2:13I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

I am glad you agree Satan can't be seen as he sits. Whereas the Antichrist can be as he sits in the Temple and claims to be God.

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the spirit of antichrist is not always hostile it is every spirit that does not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh.

1Jn4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

reincarnation of Nero is not in scripture and neither of those scriptures say anything about an earthly temple.
We are the temple of God.

To deny Jesus is the Christ is always hostile. Christians are the temple of God. That doesn't prevent the Temple on earth. "That man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 Thess. 2.3,4). There are only two people called sons of perdition in the Bible. Nero and Judas. This is not a figurative sitting, but actually in person in the Temple. For Nero to sit in the Temple, he has to be resurrected. Satan releases him from the pit (Rev. 9.1). "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition" (Rev. 17.10). Nero was one of the 5 fallen Caesars that experienced horrific deaths and his name comes to 666 in Aramaic, so he is one of the five, not the 6th who was Domitian at the time of John's writing, but the 8th. The beast that was was Nero. "Is not" because he was dead when John was wrting. "One is" is Domitian at the time of John's writing. Prince William had not yet come as the 7th. Antichrist is of the seven because he will possess the body of the 7th, was not the 6th, but one of the five, and is the consummation of all their evil. Antichrist Nero will be the first that goeth into perdition. Also, Rev. 11.2 says the physical court outside the Temple will not be measured because it is overrun. There is no way for you to avoid this physical Temple except through delusion.

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I quoted you word for word.
You said satan is used figuratively. Figuratively is a figure of speech.
LOL spirits can certainly walk. and fly. and sit. and fight.

i never said satan was physical.
angels are spirits. very real living moving spirits

Literally Satan does not sit in the structure to be able to see him, but the Antichrist can as he will in the Temple (2 Thess. 2.4) so Satan figuratively sits in these descriptions, not literally in a place for us to see him. You are double talking, for if Satan is not physical then you can't see him and thus his sitting from our perspective in these descriptions in a place on earth is through influence and power. That Satan sits in 2nd heaven is not what we are talking about. We are talking about him not being able to sit in the Temple or elsewhere on earth literally as he would if we could see him.

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Rev3:10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth

No rapture, no escaping martyrdom mentioned. Just patience and the power of God.

And there is no 2nd scripture to witness it. Only your words.

Revelation 3.10 is about escaping the hour of trial, not necessarily martyrdom. Because not all Christians keep the word of His patience, they will not escape the hour of trial, that is, they will not be raptured at first rapture, but pass through the Tribulation. It's a very simple verse. If you don't keep the word of His patience, you will enter the hour of trial. If you do keep the word of His patience you don't enter it. God's power raptures those who keep the word of His patience before the Tribulation. Remember, God can't give this promise to those who are in the Tribulation, because He can't promise no martyrdom.

There are multiple Scriptures given to corroborate the first rapture such as Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and the fact that there are some saints "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the first trumpet of the Tribulation starts (8.7ff). Mark talks about this, Luke does, John does, Paul does, Matthew does. Is that not enough for you?

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I did not misread it. I just quoted it. I am letting anyone else read it for themselves.

Mtt24:51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is what YOU say is salvation.

This is not talking about the new birth, but loss of rewards. Do you see how you have to sin bearing false witness to form your arguments? I gave you the explanation why the servant is saved. I'll let you respond to it if you wish. What you avoid is where you are losing.

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You left out this servant:
Lk 12:46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

The servant doesn't change into an unsaved person by verse 46. Read in context about who this servant is. "Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken" (vv.44,45).

Same servant. His Lord is my Lord. There are some verses that will help you understand this. “He shall never see death” (John 8.51,52) is actually “he shall not forever see death” in the original, and “he shall never taste of death” is “he shall not forever taste death” in the original. “They shall never perish” (John 10.28) is “they shall not forever perish” in the original (The Englishman’s Greek New Testament with Interlinear Translation). “Shall never die” (John 11.25,26) is “shall not forever die” in the original.
The portion is burning of the lake of fire false works off so that one can enter outer darkness before entering the New City. Whereas unregenerates remain in that Hell permanently. It's like painting a house. If you are sloppy, gasoline is poured on your skin to take the paint off, before you can enter the shower. Actually you are not even going to make it to dinner because you are too busy getting off the point.

To cut asunder, beaten is discipline, temporary separation.

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It is very simple. There are no conditions. When Jesus comes there are the dead that come back with Him and the alive that are here. We meet together in the air.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(those still alive at His coming are not before those asleep)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (the Lord descends from heaven and the dead rise first)
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.(those still here and alive meet them in the air)

There are conditions. If you are watchful, you will be taken (Matt. 24.42). If you are prayerful, you will escape these things of the Tribulation that shall come upon the whole earth (Luke 21.36). If you keep the word of His patience, you will escape the hour of trial (Rev. 3.10). Where are you received to? "Before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven. Otherwise, you you will be raptured at the start of the last trumpet. Obviously those who are alive are left, so Paul is not being redundant, but saying they were not taken but were left. Pretty simple.

First there is the being taken to the throne at the first rapture then those who are alive and left to meet the Lord in the air at the start of the last turmpet with those who are asleep, then returning with Christ at the end of the Tribulation for those who overcometh. As you take away this hope of the Church, you exclude yourself from the first rapture and millennial rapture (if you were saved).

Simple.

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Yes exactly. You are saying there is tribulation after the coming of the Son of man.
I am the one saying NO tribulation after the coming.
Immediately after the tribulation, comes the Son of man.
Its over.

The second coming isn't completed before the Tribulation. You're misunderstanding. The second coming of the Lord spans His parousia over the 7 years. The second coming of the Lord commences with the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) then Jesus comes on the cloud, through the cloud, then to meet the saints in the air at the last trumpet, before stepping down on the mount of olives, returning with His overcomer believers.

Simple.

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Now that is just one discombobulated elevator going back and forth.

It was very simply stated. Don't avoid it because of your flesh. Picture it from the throne coming down on the clouds then through the clouds then meeting the saints in the air then returning withe saints. It's a gradual process.

The coming of the Son of Man is His parousia doesn't begin when He steps down but when He first meets the overcomers at the throne at the start of the Tribulation. His parousia extends from that point to coming down on the cloud then through the cloud through the seven years, meeting the saints in the air at the last trumpet then after that 24 months later, stepping down on the mount of olives (Zech. 14.4). Remember, He returns just as He left to the clouds (Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7).

You may not like it, but at least try to understand it. This is the day of the Lord.

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i said there is "NO tribulation" after the immediately.

You thought i was saying that about you. I was saying that because there is NO tribulation after the immediately.

This is where Jesus has come to earth and the wicked taken away and the watchful stand before Him.
You have people now going to heaven.

Since I agree the Tribulation ends when Jesus returns, why argue the point? I can only take you on your words. By the way the watchful were received at the first rapture so naturally they also are included with the 5 wise virgins to return with Jesus.

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This is after the immediately in verse 29, after the Son steps down He is not going anywhere.
The coming of the Son of man is like the flood when the wicked are swept and taken away.
LOL where are the watchful being taken when Jesus is here?
the watchful are glad and are able to stand and not being taken anywhere.
They are staying to rule with their King.

To be watchful in order to escape the hour of trial upon Jesus returning makes no sense since the hour of trial is done when Jesus returns.

Joel 2.31 and Rev. 6.12 are before the Tribulation, while Matt. 24.29 are after the Tribulation. Between the two are 7 years of Daniel's prophecy. "Then shall" (Matt. 24.40) occurs after the drinking and carousing so that the taken are raptured to the throne and the saved who are slothful pass through the Tribulation along with the drunken and carousing.

“So shall be the coming of the Son of man”—As were the conditions in the days of Noah, so are they today. And just as the flood came suddenly upon them of old, so shall the Son of man come upon people unexpectedly in the future day. The coming of the Son of man begins with the first rapture according to readiness "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9). You have no faith to believe this and exclude yourself from it. How sad for you.

You asked where are the taken when Jesus is here? They were taken at the first rapture and returned with Him to reign over the nations for 1000 years.

God says they are taken before the throne, you say not. Revelation 7.9 is "before the throne" before the events of the Tribulation that unfold from chapters 8 to 19.

When Jesus returns not everyone is killed who is not saved. For the overcomers reign over the nations of many people who are not yet believers. They were not killed because they did not war against Jesus, yet they are not saved and would need to be to be still. Jesus reigns thus with a rod of iron.

It doesn't make sense if everyone who is unsaved is taken for then there is nobody for the saints to rule over the nations.
03-18-2011, 03:09 AM
foreversaved

Quote:

Originally Posted by son_flower

Nope: Its His appearing. He will protect the faithful through the trial.

Tit2:13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

He can't promise saints will not be martyred during the Tribulation as many will be, just as they were in the Smyrna church period, fed to lions.

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Nope: i do not worship antichrist he is already here and if he does possess some person its no big surprise there are many.
I worship Jesus Christ and the Father and will wait for His blessed appearing to destroy satan.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Do tell us who the Antichrist is here now according to you since you know he is here. I have no such knowledge except what the Bible says that Satan will take Nero Antichrist out of the pit as the 8th who is of the seven.

The blessed appearing of the Lord is first "before the throne" to those who are taken for keeping the word of His patience to escape the hour of trial.

You keep looking for the Antichrist first. Not I. I am looking to the first rapture first, for this blessing is given to us whosoever is prayerful and watchful. These are conditions for Christians. You may not like it but it is biblically solid.

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Not sad. i am a torment to satan.
I live as an overcomer of antichrist by the blood of the Lamb.
Its rather invigorating.

You are doing Satan's will trying to deceive Christians by saying that you must look for the Antichrist first for there is no first rapture according to readiness according to you and no hope of escaping the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world despite what Rev. 3.10 says. Anyone who thinks he is an overcomer is not an overcomer. I am sure you you think your flesh is quite invigorating, but its verdict is death. Even Paul did not know if he was an overcomer; he hoped he was included in the first rapture and first resurrection reign.

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Technically, if you love the Lord Jesus Christ you will not wish to live evilly at any time.

Living evilly and not wanting to live evilly are two separate things. Paul said he wished he would not do things he knew he ought not to do. Likewise, a Christian can backslide in the Tribulation, slack off, up to the last day knowing when Jesus returns even though he knows he ought to do better. But God says Jesus comes like a thief in the night for you know not what hour he doth come. Most Christians will probably not perceive the signs in the heavens so Jesus comes like a thief in the night to them. Thus, this speaks of before the Tribulation and before the first rapture, not the last trumpet rapture and resurrection.

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i do observe them.

Then you would agree the Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022.

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i am not avoiding this.

Sure you are for it says we can know "right at the door" (Matt. 24.33).

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i am watching these signs.

i am not watching your predictions.

These signs necessitate the time of the Tribulation, though we can't be sure the exact hour of course. You've not provided any counter.

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LOL there you go feeling sorry for a blood bought Christian.
I have access to the throne through the Holy Spirit. Christ lives in me.
Satan is under my feet.
Don't be sad for me at all.

Yes all christians are in Rev.20 4-6.
All the wife is there including the martyrs.
They are all overcomers.

I feel sorry for someone who thinks he is a blood bought Christian and not even willing to run the race to be included in the first rapture and first resurrection reign.

You're antinomian. Not all Christians are included in Rev. 20.4-6.
20.4 Three classes of people will reign with Christ:
(1) The overcomers will sit on thrones, and judgment will be given to them (20.4a). This shows that they have inherited the kingdom (see also Dan. 7.10,18,22—“Saints of the Most High”).
(2) The martyrs throughout the 20 centuries (“them that had been beheaded”—20.4b). These are the souls under the altar as shown in the fifth seal (6.9f.). It is for “the testimony of Jesus” that they are killed.
(3) The martyrs during the Great Tribulation. These are those who do not worship the beast nor his image, and upon whose foreheads and hands no mark of the beast is received (20.4c).
Since we are told in Rev. 2 & 3 to overcometh, obviously not all Christians overcometh at the same time; hence, only the overcomers are included in Rev. 20.4.

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well yes. I just quoted that scripture where He does.
you can sugar coat it anyway you want to.

Jesus is coming back for those that love, serve, and are waiting for Him.
Take heed is not an optional command.

The Lord deeply knows His overcomers, but has no deep relationship with what Paul calls carnal Christians. You can sugar coat your antinomianism but it is without rewards. Jesus is coming back for all His saints, but not all His saint are raptured at the first rapture nor all included in the first resurrection reign. These are consequences for Christians. Better you heed this now.

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Pretty bold of you to say Gods wrath is upon me.
I am not adolph hitler.

The Old Testament temple is gone.
If the Jews build another one, which is highly unlikely with Islam down their neck, it will certainly not be dedicated to Jesus Christ.
They do not believe Jesus is the Christ remember???

You accuse me of waiting on some foolish antichrist while you are waiting for a temple to be built by unbelievers so he can desecrate it

It takes no boldness, this is easy to see by the Holy Spirit. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck it's probably a duck. For you whether there is a Jewish nation or not is irrelevant. This is not how to treat our little brother. Your attitude sucks.

I wouldn't compare yourself to Hitler, you're much sneakier than his blatant approach.

The OT temple is gone, the new Temple is near. Of course Israel will not dedicate the Temple to Jesus. God knows their sin, but when He returns He will preserve a remnant of the Jewish nation. You can't stop this from happening, nor can you stop the Temple that is soon to begin construction, the Antichrist in the Temple, and outside the Temple not being measured (Rev. 11.2) when Israel is overrun.

The Temple is not completed by the time of the first rapture. Therefore, I am waiting for the first rapture, since the Temple is not yet built. If the Temple was to be built first I would wait for it as a sign first, but since the Bible says the Temple is completed with 2300 days left into the Tribulation I am waiting for the construction of the Temple to begin and the first rapture, but not its completion April 20, 2016, because I would be raptured before then I hope.

Just know you worship a false Christ, because you reject the Jesus who reigns in the Temple for 1000 years over the nations.

You are as foolish as the Antichrist because you wait for him first before Jesus when Jesus gives us the hope of His appearing not just at the end of the Tribulation but at the first rapture before the Tribulation. Amen.

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LOL the scriptures are very straight forward and easy to understand ALL the time.
They are approved for all ages.

This is way off the topic of the OP.
Which is your predictions for our future OUTSIDE of scripture.

Spiritual life is never so easy as you think, nor is it so difficult. Since you make many mistakes your pride is self-exalting thinking it is easy all the time. If it was so easy why misread it so badly?

Since you couldn't show anything that is outside of Scripture in these signs we are to observe, why be like Satan the great accuser?
03-18-2011, 08:22 PM
foreversaved

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Originally Posted by son_flower

That is a blatant LIE.

I never anywhere here nor anywhere else ever said I am looking for the Antichrist.

I have said plainly enough my belief that there is NOT an Antichrist but the antichrist spirit that works through many.
Period.

You are looking for your escape.
I am looking for the King to come to earth and reign.

It is a blatant fact for you the Antichrist comes first so you look for him first. Not for Christians though since we look to the blessed hope with which comes the reward of being first raptured if we keep the word of His patience. Praise the Lord! You have no such hope. You don't even want it.

You have said you know the Antichrist is here now, yet you refuse to disclose his name. Why are you being coy and trying to protect him?

The antichrist spirit works through many, but why would that exclude there from being the ultimate Antichrist? There is always a president of a country, the person with top marks in class, and the leading advocate of a cause. Why is it not the case with Antichrist as the most evil man who ever lived? Just as Nero was the most evil man in history so he is correctly identified by the number of a man, the first beast, which is 666. Nero's name in Aramaic comes to Neron Kaisar equaling 666. This is what the church fathers believed too. Are they all wrong? Satan is given the key in Rev. 9.1 to open the pit to release demons as well as Nero. This is why in Revelation 17 it says the 8th, who is the Antichrist, is one of the five fallen (Caesars). This is only possible if Nero is let loose out of the pit, God allowing this to happen by giving Satan the key, and thus we read in 2 Thess. 2 what the Antichrist will do.

The Bible warns me against you: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (v.4). Only Nero and Judas in the Bible were called the sons of perdition.

This is clearly outward appearances: an actual person sitting in the Third Temple who calls himself God. You have no faith to believe this because you are the very person warned against who is protecting the Antichrist by either saying he is here but you won't disclose him (actually he is not really here yet) or you say he doesn't exist. Either way you are protecting the Antichrist. "That man of sin be revealed". It does not say "That spirit be revealed." He is not a spirit being but a real person. You are a lost soul who will accept the mark of the beast and follow the Antichrist because you deny he exists when you changed your mind again and said, "my belief that there is NOT an Antichrist." Before you said, "i do not worship antichrist he is already here." Which is it? The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Satan is the author of confusion. Why take after your father Satan?

I am looking for the appearing of the Lord and the escape if I am worthy (since the first rapture is conditional): "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36). Do all Christians do this? No, of course not. Many believers are lying on a bed of fornication, tied down to the world like a balloon unwilling to be released. To stand before the Son of man is "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven before the Tribulation starts (8.7ff). By rejecting this, who is to say you are not looking for a false Christ? When you are in the Tribulation and Sept. 14, 2015 rolls around and a couple million have vanished you will be like Satan accusing the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10) of a "fake rapture." But if I am not in the first rapture I won't do that. I will just realize that I was not yet ready to be received. This is the proper response a Tribulation saint should have.

We already know you are looking for the Antichrist who you claim is here now (you said he is "already here"). Where is he? Who is he then? You make extravagant claims you can't back up. Mistaken assumptions are deadly. Rev. 9.1 can be the only point Nero is released which is the beginning of the Great Tribulation of three and a half years (containing the 3 woes, last three trumpets, with the 7th trumpet pouring out the 7 bowls of wrath).

Since you automatically exclude yourself from the first rapture, you also exclude yourself from the millennial reign. At best you are a carnal Christian. At worst there is another reason you look for the Antichrist who you say is here now but don't disclose him because you are trying to protect him by saying he does not exist. This is your secret Antichrist. Does this serve your purposes and his?

Christians believe the Antichrist is not revealed until the midway point of the Tribulation at Rev. 9.1 since he is released from the pit at that time.

I am confident you are not looking for the return of Jesus since you take away the hope of the Church and you attempt to conceal the Antichrist you claim is here now. This all sounds too nefarious for it to be of God!

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Here again, this is a vicious LIE.

I have NEVER said anyone must look for the Antichrist!

I am not trying to escape through any rapture.

That is YOUR theology.
YOU believe in your Antichrist man. I DO NOT.

Your lies are vicious and deceitful as can be. You are in actuality looking for the Antichrist first because for you the Antichrist must come first. God's desire is your to escape through the first rapture, but you reject God's will: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36). Why reject God's word if you are a Christian?

I am only responding to what you had said before as you keep flipping back and forth from your ideas that there is no Antichrist then you say there is then you say there isn't. Satan is the author of confusion. Before you said of yourself, "i do not worship antichrist he is already here."

Your original view was there was no Antichrist, but when I pressed you on the Antichrist in 2 Thess. 2.4 who is one of the sons of perdition who sits in the Temple and calls himself God, you changed your tune and said there is an Antichrist. Now you are back to there being no Antichrist, because I said you are looking for the Antichrist whom you said is here already. That's why I asked you who is he if you know he is here? You keep avoiding this question.

2 Thess. 2.3,4 is clear about the Antichrist with Rev. 13.18 and 17.10,11. "That man [NOT SPIRIT] of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." This is not some invisible being. He sits in the Temple for people to see as he calls himself God. If the Antichrist was invisible sitting in the throne, that can't be the throne in heaven, since Lucifer has fallen from 3rd heaven to 2nd heaven. "The man of sin is revealed." How is he revealed if you can't see him? You just don't make sense. "The number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six" (Rev. 13.18). "A man" not a spirit. That man is Neron Kaisar = 666. The Antichrist is the first beast, and the False Prophet the second beast. John was warning us about the most evil man in history who will return. Caesar Nero returns when Satan releases him from the pit. At the time of John's writing he was not because Nero had already died and the 7th had not come yet, but one is (Domitian), he is of the 7 and one of the fallen 5, but can't be the 6th. If not the 6th then one of the 5, and only Nero's name comes to 666. He will posses the body of the 7th since Nero will be disembodied in the pit. Only Jesus can physically resurrect. Satan can only take a disembodied spirit or person to possess an existing body. I suspect Prince William will be almost dead then just as he dies, his body is possessed by Nero since Nero needs a body. This is not a reincarnation, but how the disembodied can do weird things.

When God made the earth desolate and waste in Gen. 1.2 due to the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earliest ages, he cast the demons with their disembodied spirits when they died into the deep or abyss. When God restored creation of the 6 days, only day 2 is not called a good day because when the firmament was split unavoidably some of this demons would not maintain their proper abode and escaped. One of them went into the serpent to tempt Eve though could not harm her physically. This is so man had a true free will.

So when Nero is resuscitated he possess the body of King William V or I AM VI VI VI, but like all demons or disembodied spirits that is the extent of it. When that bodies, the inhabitant will have to go back to the pit. He will then be the first person resurrected by Jesus who is sent to the Great White Throne, judged and cast into Hell along with the False Prophet (resurrected Judas, the other son of perdition).

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Please stop implying that my Savior did not die for me.

I am running the race to the END. Whether to my death or to the resurrection at His appearing.

I have no desire to LEAVE I am looking for Christ to COME.
In the meantime I have Christ NOW in Spirit
That is enough for me.

I am just showing you how you reject His word since Luke 21.36 says in order to escape these things that are to come upon the whole world you will need to be prayerful and watchful to be accounted worthy. Why reject this? Why avoid this statement? That which you do not deal with shows where the hole is in your thinking.

Jesus died for everyone, but I honestly can't accept someone as a Christian when they take away the hope of the Church. You're not running the race doing God's will when you alter God's word. Your self-declarations don't count. Since God desires to rapture you before the throne and you don't want to be, you are siding with the Antichrist. Christ comes to rapture His saints, but you don't desire to leave in the rapture; you prefer to dwell in the world. So be it! I compare the word of God to what you believe of a teaching from another Christ.

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My brethren are BELIEVERS in Jesus Christ.

The Jews are not my Christian brethren and do not wish to be.

They are quite welcome to repent and be saved.

The people of Israel are the little brother for a remnant of 144,000 will be preserved. Your anti-semite treatment of the Jews shows your heart is dead to God.

The sheep mentioned in Matthew 25 treat well the little brother ("one of these my brethren, even these least"—v.40). (This little brother points to the Jews and those Christians who yet remain on earth.) This little brother—Israel—will become the test for the nations in the future as you can see is even happening now.

Your heart is ugly to me that you would be perfectly happy to see all Jews cease to exist and the nation of Israel disappear into the Mediterranean. I am having a tough time seeing the difference between you and Hitler and Muslims.

Rev. 7.4-8 Who are these people?

(1) Not the church.

The Seventh Day Adventists consider themselves this people because they claim to keep the law and hence they are the true Jews. But there are ten reasons to prove that the people in this passage are the Jews according to the flesh.

(a) If "the children of Israel" spoken of in 2.14 is to be explained literally, then "the children of Israel" found in 7.4 must also be literally interpreted.
(b) Since "the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 5.5 is literal, so must "the tribe of Judah" mentioned in 7.5 be literal.
(c) The names of the twelve tribes belong only to the children of Israel; who can therefore say which Christian denomination comes under the name of which tribe of Israel?
(d) Israel has twelve tribes, but the church is one. How can the church be divided into twelve tribes?
(e) 7.9 speaks of "every nation", so "Israel" spoken of in 7.4 must be a nation.
(f) The great multitude told of in 7.9 is numberless, while those mentioned in 7.3-4 who receive the seal on their foreheads are numbered as 144,000. How can anyone restrict the saved ones of the church to a group numbering only 144,000? Furthermore, this number of 144,000 is made up of 12 twelve thousands. It would thus be unreasonable not to interpret literally. This is a remnant of Israel that will be the center of all nations, and there is nothing you can do to stop it in your anti-semitism.
(g) "The kings" spoken of in 6.15 are taken literally; how then can "Israel" found in 7.4 not be reckoned as a nation?
(h) Because John did not know where this great multitude came from, he said to one of the elders, "Thou knowest" (7.13,14). Yet he did not ask about those told of in 7.4-8, since evidently he had already known who they were from the nation of Israel.
(i) In Joel 2.2-27 we read that God only tells Israel how to escape the locusts, and in Revelation 9.3,4 we read that only those whom God has sealed escape the hurt of the locusts. It is thus proven beyond doubt that the sealed are the Jews.
(j) The sheep mentioned in Matthew 25 treat well the little brother ("one of these my brethren, even these least"—v.40). (This little brother points to the Jews and those Christians who yet remain on earth.) This little brother—Israel—will become the test for the nations in the future.

(2) Not the church but the various people of Israel.
Before we deal with this group in general let us first notice that in 7.4-8 no name of Dan is mentioned. According to Ezekiel chapters 40-48 which predict the situation concerning the future kingdom, Dan will be located at the north end (48.1). Why then is Dan not mentioned here? This does not mean that Dan as a tribe has disappeared; it may suggest, though, the close relationship Dan has with the serpent. We will recall that as Jacob prophesied over his sons he mentioned Dan (Gen. 49.16-18). Verse 16 of that passage told of Dan’s existence and verse 17 of his conduct; but in verse 18 Jacob suddenly bursts out in prayer. He had not done this when prophesying concerning his other sons. Probably Dan’s behavior in the future would be highly dangerous. During the Great Tribulation the tribe of Dan may join itself to Antichrist in some special relationship.

These people who are sealed with the seal of the living God are:

a) the Jews who will rule with Christ on earth in the future (though not as kings). Twelve thousand is the resultant number of the multiples of 12, it being 12Х1000. This number represents the eternal perfection of God’s government.
b) the suffering Jews who make up part of the little brother mentioned in Matthew 25 as a nation (sheep nation).
c) the Jewish counterpart of those who endure to the end as spoken of in Matthew 24.
d) the Jews upon whom the Holy Spirit will be poured out in the coming day (the former rain has already been poured out—Acts 2, but the latter rain is yet to be poured forth—Joel 2.28-29). The blood and fire mentioned in Joel 2.30 coincide with the phenomena of the first trumpet; the pillars of smoke agree with the fifth trumpet. Thus the second outpouring of the Holy Spirit will occur between the sixth seal and the fifth trumpet.
And e) those Jews who receive the New Covenant when the Lord Jesus shall establish His New Covenant with Israel on earth (Jer. 31.31-34).

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" (Matt. 25.40).

Who are the least of the brethren of the Lord? Our Lord has three distinct kinds of brethren: (1) the Jews, He and they being of the same race (see Acts 7.23-26, Rom. 9.3, and Deut. 17.15); (2) His own brethren according to flesh (see Matt. 12.46-48 and 13.55); and (3) the believers who are His brethren (see Matt. 12.48-50). The least of the Lord’s brethren spoken of in Matthew 25.40 do not refer to the first or second kinds (the Jews), since by the time of Matthew 12 the Lord had already deliberately severed such relationships. Consequently, they must refer to those believers who shall have to pass through the Great Tribulation. Since believers are joined to the Lord as one (1 Cor. 6.17), then whatever is done to them is done also to the Lord.

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This is the third time you have told this LIE.
I have not nor ever will believe in your false Antichrist or reincarnation.

You have said Antichrist more times than Jesus Christ.

That's the third time you put on your straight faced lie. You said of yourself, "i do not worship antichrist he is already here."

Why are you concealing him if you know he is here? Why protect Satan's first beast?

You're like Satan all you can do is accuse flailingly of reincarnation or that the Antichrist is mine? How is the Antichrist mine if I am with Jesus who will put the Antichrist into Hell at the end of the Tribulation? Where is there reincarnation in what I said? We are appointed once to die then the resurrection and judgment. No reincarnation in that.

I mention Antichrist every time you mention him in response to show you your double tongue: you said the Antichrist does not exist, then you said the Antichrist is here, then you say he doesn't exist. Your head is spinning like you are demonically possessed. God says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

You have mentioned the word antichrist more than you mentioned Jesus so why the doublestandard in your accusation? God hates your double standards. Why don't you treat others in your accusations as you would like to be treated? Don't judge for you will be judged for that which you judge by especially when it is a false judgment because God hates your sinning bearing false witness.

As to the Antichrist, clearly 2 Thess. 2.4 is a physical Temple and the Antichrist a real person. The Temple is also a real Temple and its court is physically not measured (Rev. 11.2) because Israel is overrun.

You come across very unethical to me. Don't you realize the reason you keep switching back from there being no Antichrist to there being one is because I said that since you deny the Antichrist, you are already one of the people of the Antichrist prince. Then you said the Antichrist does exist because I revealed this about you. Now that I say you are waiting for the Antichrist since you acknowledge the Antichrist exists-which you surely are if you take away the hope of the first rapture before the Antichrist comes-you claim the Antichrist doesn't exist. Make up your mind. You're acting like Satan would.

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I am NOT INTERESTED in anything OUTSIDE of SCRIPTURE.

You are interested in misreading Scripture, thus altering it, because of your flesh. Since you think there is no Antichrist, yet he will come on the scene in the second half of this decade, while he is here as the 8th you will deceive people and claim it is not him because you say he doesn't exist so people can embrace him and take the implant under the skin to be able to buy or sell. You are already lost. What can Jesus say to you but that you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). How sad for you.