Why Do Calvinists Work So Hard for Their Alleged Salvation?

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11-21-2010, 11:12 AM
Parture

Why Do Calvinists Work So Hard for Their Alleged Salvation?

Re: yeshualovesme1
http://www.youtube.com/user/yeshualovesme1

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeshualovesme1

This guy has no idea what he's talking about. Calvinism is all about knowing that you are saved. Arminianism is all abou earning it. Where iis this guy getting his info. Has he ever compared the 2 theologies? Or has he even read the Bible. The truth is that God has chosen the elect. Conditional election is a lie, it means you have to earn election. Unlimited atonement is a lie. Does this guy really believe that peole in hell have their sins atoned for? Atonement means at one with God. Come on!

In OSAS Arminian a person gives his life to Christ, the one who keeps in humility that we can't keep ourselves saved. God chooses the elect but not by irresistibly regenerating them, but predestinate by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. God contrasts faith with works so it is not wise to accuse God of conditional election. People in Hell refuse the atonement, which is why they are in Hell.

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The work a the receiver of the check (salvation) does is not to earn something they have already been given, but to obey and please the one who has loved them when they were unloveable. No true Calvinist thinks they earn ther salvation. I think you are a Calvinist and just don't know it. Your thought are Calvinist, but you explain them using the wrong terms! Crazy!

I think a Calvinist does try to earn their salvation because they don't know if they are saved or not, not really, since it was never their choice, so that's why they "persevere" for it in hopes it all works out. Whereas Christians are "preserved."

The reason I am not a Calvinist is because I repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated, whereas the Calvinist is unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. They refuses salvation because they are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Pridefully, they assume they were irresistibly selected because they are too afraid to give up their lives to Christ.

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Calvinism is like this. You are sitting at home and you receive a check for 30 years of work at 3 times the highest hourly wage you have ever worked for. You are so overjoyed at the graious gift that you have been given that you want nothing more than to work for the person,who gave you the unmerited gift, for the rest of your life, without getting paid another dime. You see the check is salvation, which was undeserved. I'll continue

When you look under what you are describing, Calvinism is really like this. You work all your life, with no grace whatsoever, and then in your elderly age, your house is burnt down, all your money is stolen, your family is killed, and then you are murdered. This is called preterition in Calvinism. And others never did anything all their lives and one day they get a check for $10,000,000 from Satan; then Satan asks you to do something for him. That's not how God works. The way God works is He supplies sufficient grace to give everyone the choice.

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by the way, do you realize that you took the Lord's name in vein at least once when you did your video. You are really missing the point on alot of this stuff. OSAS is primarily an Arminian doctrine. The double standard you speak of according to works is so misguided. I will explain. You say that Calvinists are worng because they work for their salvation? That is so untrue. The truth of Calvinism is that God has started the work in the hearts of men, and men respond to God's work. Contnued

I am glad you couldn't show your accusation. I teach OSAS is Arminian since that is what Jacob Arminius believed in agreement with God's word. What you think was a starting point for Calvinists, the Christians consider that the evil spirit in you, because a loving God does not irresistibly impose salvation on people, nor pass over others giving them no grace whatsoever to have the opportunity to be saved. What love is that?

The point about Calvinists and work is that because they don't really know if they are saved or not, not really, since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and it was never their choice, what we see in their behavior is they work so hard for their salvation as a result, because they just don't know.

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You just refuted Arminianism when you said, " People in Hell refuse the atonement, which is why they are in Hell." Are you messing with me? Because if you knew what unlimited atonement means you would know that unlimited atonement means that all sins are atooned for, but that is impossible if people are in Hell. Come on man, you really have no clue do you?If you would like to learn the truth, PM me and we will start a dialogue. No one can truly understand God's sovereignty in arminianism

It is quite possible people go to Hell with unlimited atonement, for just because Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, you still need to appropriate God's salvation by receiving the ransom He paid. The reason why they go to Hell is because for eternity they will continue to reject the atonement.

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T - Total Depravity = Man cannot save Himself, God does that. Unconditional election - God desides who is saved, obviously, or else heisnotsovereign. Limited atonement = only those who are saved have their sins truly atoned for. The word atonement means AT ONE WITH CHRIST. You can't be atone with Him if you are in Hell. Irrefutable grace = when God works in your life, you love Him because it is only right to do so Perseverence is doing what is right because we are called to, not to earn or keep

Total depravity means God doesn't provide sufficient grace to us all; hence everyone according to Calvinism is Totally depraved. Arminians believe we can't save ourselves; but that God does the saving. Unconditional election doesn't mean God decides who is saved, but rather, your god irresistibly imposes salvation on people which is evil. Limited atonement is likewise evil because it means God irresistibly imposes salvation and doesn't give anyone the choice. Irresistible grace should not be considered grace, because where is the love in forcing someone into something? You shouldn't persevere for Satan, but give your life to Christ and so shall you be saved. The reason you persevere is because you don't know if you are saved or not, not really, since it was never your choice. What a deplorable state to be in.

You are not born-again.
11-22-2010, 02:31 AM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeshualovesme1

Arminianism id totally man centered, and calvinism is God centered, how have you twisted it so terribly? By the way, I am born again, I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Calvinism is totally man centered because it teaches all you need do to be saved is assume you were irresistibly selected, rather than repent truly and genuinely to the cross as a helpless sinner for regeneration. You are not born-again. You have a relationship with Satan who has created a simulation by twisting God's mercy and grace with irresistibly imposed regeneration. God will never save anyone that way. That's how Hitler treated his Arian race and gave the Jews no grace to have the choice on their way to the gas chambers.

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I used to be a drug addict and womanizer as well as a complete pagan. Only through the grace shown to me from Jesus when I called out to Him at the bottom of rock bottom, has anything changed in my life. Jesus did it all, I just submitted to Him. I do not have to prove this to you, but I feel maybe you should read Matthew 7, you know the sermon on the mount. the first verse talks about not judging, or you too will be judged.

You've misread the Sermon on the Mount because it doesn't teach not to judge or you will be judged but rather the judgment you judge by you will be judged. I am not a Calvinist so I am free and clear of that judgment and don't fall into judgment with you.

Since time and again you have taught that you were irresistibly regenerated which made you to allegedly repent and believe in Christ, then you are not saved. Forced repentance is still unrepentant. Still you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Grace is not irresistibly imposed. Don't believe Satan's lies. Since you claim to look back upon your alleged salvation as being irresistibly impose and you didn't have the choice in the matter then accept that is Satan not Jesus.

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You say I am not born again, because I believe that God has changed me, and that I couldn;t have seen changes in my life without Him? Crazy! In verse 21-23 Jesus speaks blatently about people who are works based not truly "KNOWING HIM" and therefore being cast away anf judge according to their sin. I know that God is the author and perfector of my salvation, I do not work for it, I only obey because I want to and because I am truly a new creation in Christ Jesus. These things are calvinist ideas, yet you claim them as arminian, wow!

No, I don't say that you are not born-again because you believe that God has changed you and that you couldn't, but because you reveal you were never saved because you concede you never gave your life to Christ to be regenerated. I take you on your word. Your works are based on not knowing Him. If you want to be saved it is simple. Simply repent and believe in Christ truly and genuinely, and if you do so, no longer will you teach that you were irresistibly regenerated. Thus, you will reject all 5 points of Calvinism for the Holy Spirit will work in you to do so if your heart is open to Him.

Indeed, you do work for your salvation as a Calvinist because you don't know if you are saved or not, not really, since it was never your choice you admit. So all you can do is work for it in hopes it turns out. Whereas Arminians don't work for our initial salvation, because we gave our lives to the God who keeps. Amen.

Don't you feel ugly inside thinking God sends people to Hell from birth without any grace, mercy or opportunity to be saved? Don't you see how sick you are? You have moved from one drug addicted lie to another. Pitiful. You've totally underestimated the wiles of the Devil. He's been around millions if not billions of years.

Wake up!

Here's some recommended reading for you,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/SMCFP.htm
http://www.acts1711.com/wots.html
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/laten...f_the_soul.htm
11-22-2010, 10:09 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeshualovesme1

You obviously do not even have a clue as to the true differences in Calvinism and Armi nianism. If you did, I would be interested, but you are seriously confusion the real issues. I am a calvinist and Calvinism has nothing to do with winning your faith, that why we believe in unconditional election. If there were conditions, that would mean you have to do something to be saved. Total depravity means one cannot be good or desire God, without God first changing their heart. Limited atonement means only the sins of people who are saved were atoned for. There rest of the sins were prpitiated, there is a difference, if you knew that you wouldn't be making a fool of your self while totally confusing what the 2 theologies mean. Cavinist biggest problem with most Arminians is that they feel Arminians try to win their salvation, yet you are condemning Calviniss for the sa,e thing, what gives. nconditional and conditional election cannot mean the same thing dufus. Get a life and actually study what the 2 terms dealing with theology actually mean!

You are a Calvinist and therefore, you will got to Hell. Accept it. Accept that you are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ. It really is as simple as that. You did something to be saved in Calvinism. You assumed you were irresistibly selected, therefore, it is a doublestandard to accuse Christians of having repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated as being works. Whenever someone has a doublestandard like that you know there is something wrong with them.

You've accused God Himself because He does not consider faith to be works: "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). God contrasts faith with works, so He invites you to respond. Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37). Whosoever is willing.

You are not Totally depraved. You've just erected this man-made idol, because you are too selfish to give your life to Christ. You've accepted Satan's facsimile who irresistibly imposes an alleged salvation. God never operates that way. Since God provides sufficient grace to all men, then nobody is Totally depraved. "Who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). "If any man eat...my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (v. 51). God's sufficient grace is seen in Him "not wishing that any should perish" (2 Pet. 3:9). So you are "without excuse" (Rom 1.20). It does not say God is the Savior of all men who believe, specially those who believe for that would make no sense. Redundantly ridiculous.

Total depravity means not simply that one cannot be good or desire God without God first changing their hearts, for that is what Arminians believe then there would be no difference, but obviously there is a difference between Arminians and Calvinists. That's the whole point, there is a difference. The opposite of what Arminians believe is what Calvinists believe. Calvinists believe in Total depravity in contrast to the sufficient grace of God to all and free will, because Calvinists believe nobody comes to their Christ unless their god irresistibly imposes regeneration on them and passes over billions to send them to Hell, destined from birth with no grace or love or mercy whatsoever. You're a sick bastard. What love is that? If it is certainly evil for us to behave this way towards one another, it certainly is for your demonic god. Ergo, God of the Bible is not your god.

Limited atonement doesn't just mean those who are saved have their sins atoned but that they were irresistibly forced into without the choice in the matter and that your god was impotent to be able to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. His ability was limited. But God is different. "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2.2). "The whole world lieth in wickedness" (1 John 5.19). So "faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1.8). God gives the gift of faith to those who search Him out with all their heart and soul; surely they shall find Him. This is my prayer for you too.

Indeed, Calvinists try to win their salvation, whereas Christians (Arminians) simply fulfill the condition God requires of us as relational beings to commune and fellowship with. You've tried to win your salvation in two ways: 1) first you assume you were irresistibly selected without having had to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, and 2) because it was never your choice you really don't know if you are saved or not, so like many Calvinists you work hard for it, hoping it works out. This is salvation by works in "persevering." Whereas Christians are "preserved" because we know we can never lose salvation since we gave our lives to the God who keeps.

Of course unconditional and conditional election can't be the same thing. Unconditional election is like how Hitler irresistibly and unconditional considered the Aryan race from birth the chosen ones and the Jews, all of them, wherever they are and however old they are must all go to the gas chambers. You're a sick bastard. Whereas with conditional election everyone is allowed to be saved whosoever is willing.

Clearly you concede to everyone you are going to Hell for you reject the God of the Bible whom Paul writes about, "For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men" (Tit. 2.11). His grace is sufficient for all men Who came upon all men to be saved whosoever is willing. Jesus "became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him" (Heb. 5.9) not "so all will obey him" or "some will be made to obey him."

My prayer is that one day you give your life to Christ. Amen.
11-29-2010, 04:31 AM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeshualovesme1

Dude, letme tell you for the last time, my theology has nothing to do with me earning anything. My theology is consumed by grace and mercy. The work that is done is onkly God's work. I have nothing to do withy my salvation. seriously, you are a calvinist, but you don'y know it. Calvinism means your salvation is God centered, that he does it all. Arminianism means you have to choose Him. YOU HAVE TO KEEP WORKING OR ELSE YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION, YOU, YOU, YOU!

That wouldn't make much sense what you said since Jacob Arminius said never once did he ever teach a person could lose salvation, so why sin bearing false witness against him? Why follow Satan the great accuser? The Roman Church teaches a person can lose salvation so they are not Arminians but Remonstrants.

Where is the humility in pridefully assuming you were irresistibly selected, not having repented and believed in Christ to be regenerated? How is God being merciful and full of grace by irresistibly imposing salvation on people and like Hitler passing over the Jews by sending them to the gas chambers with no mercy or grace whatsoever? What love is that?

What your are describing is not God's work, but Satan's work to create a facsimile of God's redemptive design to deceive people and give what people want, a selfish salvation where they did not have to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You can know the difference between God and Satan for the latter irresistibly imposes and God never does.

Since you admit you "have nothing to do" with your salvation, you exalt an idol claiming you never had a choice and that's why you work so hard for it because you don't know if you are saved or not, not really, since it was never your choice. You're just an automaton. Whereas Christians we know we are saved because God afforded us the choice, and we gave our life to the God who keeps accepting we can't keep ourselves saved.

The reason I am not a Calvinist as you would like me to be is because God doesn't do it all. He enjoys our involvement and participation; just as He is relational in His 3 Persons, He is relational with us, gracing us by enabling us to have the choice as sovereign free willed beings. This is something your god will never be able to do. I see your god with just a bunch of mindless robots.

Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). So why accuse God of giving us the choice? God says our faith is not a work. By believing on Him, you are not working. The irony again is by assuming you were irresistibly selected according to you this would be a work, so you accuse yourself and exhibit a doublestandard.

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged" (Matt. 7.21). Praise the Lord I am not judged with you because I don't believe faith and choice are a work. Therefore when I choose God and then realize I was chosen before the foundations of the world, I don't consider that a work because God doesn't consider it a work.

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I mean seriously, how can someone who thinks they know so much about theology miss so thoroughly what the 2 theologies mean? Arminians believe that their salvation rests solely on what they cane do for God, a Calvinist believes that God has regenerated their hert, mind and soul, therfore creating a new creation that can do godly things. But in no way shape or form will my works ever earn keep or lose my salvation for me.

Since God has afforded us the choice and we are not saved by works, then what God is requiring of you is your choice to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated; alas, you are unwilling, therefore your future is Hell. Since God never irresistibly regenerates hearts, but only gives His life to those who repent and believe in Him, then clearly you are not born-again since you refuse to give your life to Christ. Assuming you have been quickened in the Holy Spirit is not a valid approach. Prove it. Since no Scripture supports your faith, then you reveal you're living a lie.

The reality of your condition is you work hard for your salvation because it was never your choice. You really don't know if you are saved or not because it was never your choice so you work hard for it. Who is to say those you claim are preteritioned are not the saved ones under your scheme? They may very well have been the ones irresistibly selected. And those who allege they are irresistibly selected would go to Hell because God hates pride. All you can do is go with the evidence. There are over 4000 verses that speak of free will in the Bible, yet you say man has no free will. That's worse that being belligerent and obtuse. What can satisfy your heart but Hell? With so many verses supporting Christians and you can't find one verse to support your faith, is it still not obvious to you that you are going to the Lake of Fire?

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Please read Romans 9. I will not argue with you about my relationship with God. I know Him, he knows me, I don't really worry about what you think. seriously go talk to some people and learn what the true identity of Arminianism and Calvinis are. You keep on accusing me of thinking I have to work for my salvation, and that's exactly the first reason I rejected Arminianism in the first place, because that, in fact, is an Arminian idea. LEAVE ME ALONE AND GO LEARN SOMETHING!

God doesn't know you and I don't know your god either. Read Romans 9 again. Nothing in this chapter says anything about a person being irresistibly selected. You have a relationship with Satan who is masquerading as an angel of light. If you are not the false Christian worshiping a false Christ then who is? Remember, your argument is based on sinning bearing false witness against Jacob Arminius? That is not a solid foundation but one based on quicksand.

The difference between Arminian and Calvin is that the latter pridefully assumes he is irresistibly selected whereas the former does not. The former repents and believes unto regeneration; whereas, you accuse people of being genuine in their repenting and believing to be regenerated. Don't you see how obnoxious your position is? It's like you are on the highest mountain declaring you have been irresistibly selected, yet you still can't reach God. "The accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" (Rev. 12.10). God is going to kick you off that great and high mountain you exalt yourself upon.

Since you consider faith to be a work, and you have faith that you were irresistibly selected, then according to your way of thinking you are definitely going to Hell.

How sad for you.