The Supernatural Being of Calvinism is Satan
Re: Theo1689 - CARM
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Originally Posted by Theo1689
Maybe because no matter about the other teachings, the all realize that "Total Depravity" is completely Biblical (Deut. 6:5, Isa. 64:6, Rom. 3:10-18, etc.)
"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" (Deut. 6.5). Here God is pleading with us to love God with all our hearts, souls and minds, so how is this Total Depravity? If I plead with you to go to the store to pick up some milk obviously you have the choice to comply.
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" (Is. 64.6). This verse is telling us we are sinners and the power of sin, so why insert Total Depravity? Where does it say we are Totally Unable and God doesn't provide sufficient grace to all to be able to respond? You can still help an old lady across the street. You're still made in God's image with free will though it has been corrupted. God has still supplied you with sufficient grace to be able to respond to what Jesus did on the cross. "For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men" (Tit. 2.11).
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes" (Rom 3.10-18).
That there are none righteous, where does it say we are Totally Unable? Nobody is good because we are full of sin. How can we be good if you are full of sin? A big mistake would be to be a legalizer and say that means you can't even help an old lady across the street. That's not what is being said at all. Rather, though you can help an old lady across the street yet you remain unsaved and are going to Hell because you admit you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Calvinist must insert Total Depravity into the text that is not explicitly stated in order to excuse themselves from repenting to the cross as helpless sinners as God would have you.
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The Bible doesn't each "free will" anywhere. Quite the contrary, the Bible teaches "total depravity" (which you assert is the opposite of "free will"); The Bible teaches wills enslaved in sin (Rom. 6:16-22); The Bible teaches that salvation is not a matter of man's "will" (John 1:13, Rom. 9:16).
There are over 4000 verses speaking of free will. "Say to them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Ez. 33.11). God is pleading with you having provided you with sufficient grace to be able to respond, but you will not listen. "Willingly offered" is found five times, such as "the people willingly offered themselves" (Judges 5.2); "willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord" (Ezra 3.5). The offer of salvation to Nicodemus, "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) would not be given if he could not actually receive the cross by faith as a helpless sinner. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)?
Obviously, if you are Totally Depraved, then you don't have the free will to receive what Jesus did for you, so it is hardly an assertion, but naturally follows, you can't be both a sovereign free-willed being and Totally Depraved at the same time. It's a contradiction. That's why when you see the comparison of the 5 points of Arminian with Calvinism the first point of difference is always Free Will vs. Total Depravity.
The will is enslaved to sin, but that doesn't mean it is Totally Depraved, for God of the Bible provides sufficient grace to us all to be able to respond. A slave can escape his slavery. He can run (figuratively speaking) to God and God will take him out of slavery to sin.
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God" (Rom. 6.16-22).
"Ye yield yourselves" is free will. Even though you are a "servant of sin" you have the choice to have "obeyed from the heart". Why? Because God doesn't leave people hanging. He graces us all with prevenient grace to be able to respond. "Now yield!" It does not say God yielded for you. You are free from sin IF you give your life to Christ instead of assuming pridefully you were irresistibly selected. What you believe is really obnoxious!
"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1.13). This verse doesn't say salvation doesn't require your will to freely choose the cross to be regenerated. It says we are not saved by our flesh (passion), will of man (planning), but of God, since God is the one who regenerates us, not our will. Our choice left hanging can't regenerate us, but it is our choice if it fulfills God's condition He will then regenerate us.
Calvinists often quote John 1.13, misread it and insert into it without looking at the prior verse. What does it say? "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (v.12). Who is given power to become a son of God? Those who "received him" (antecedent) indicating free will.
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Rom. 9.16). You can't will yourself into salvation, that is to say, you can't as Calvinist do declare they were irresistibly regenerated. You can't work for it (runneth), but it is according to God's mercy, but nothing here is said about God's mercy not being prevenient, sufficient for us all to be able to freely respond. How God applies His mercy and grace is His prerogative; even so, it is sufficient for us all. "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37). So why insert irresistible grace? Makes no sense unless you are unsaved and reject God of the Bible, thus worshiping a false Christ. Think what a charade the Scriptures would be "if any man" meant actually only those your god irresistibly imposes. God says what He means and means what He says: "if any man". He doesn't mince words or expect you to have to perform mental gymnastics to understand what He meant.
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Actually, I have never come across anyone who believes "we don't even have a will". In my experience, this is a misinterpretation (unintentional or otherwise) by Arminians, who hear, "we don't have a free will", and then say, "Oh, so you don't believe we even have any kind of a will!". It also makes it easier to present the straw-man argument of "automatons" or "robots". I challenged you to cite anyone who teaches that "we don't even have a will". And when you cannot do so, you need to get rid of that lame straw-man.
I have come across lots of hardened Calvinists who say they don't have a will, but it is all irresistibly made to do what it does. They say "man has no will". They don't just say "man has no free will". Moderate Calvinists feel guilty by that stance so they try to sugar coat it and say man has a will but it is not free; it can't help old ladies across the street or receive what Jesus did for them, because of the idol of Total Depravity erected by which they mean Total Inability. Hence, flows preterition to those your god does not irresistibly force the will to choose Him. This is "automatons" and "robots" since to impose regeneration can only be done robotically in your world scheme, never giving the person the choice. You shouldn't in your imagination out of embarrassment disallow the most extreme Calvinists from believing man has no will let alone no free will. Otherwise, you cut off the free will from choosing to believe this ridiculous idea. Obviously, God has given you the choice to believe such nonsense and you do.
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In my experience, most Arminians who proclaim "free will" haven't done any kind of study or thought on the subject, and simply throw around the term. Words have meaning, and in order to assert or deny something like "free will", one must first understand and recognize what it is referring to. There seem to be two different uses of the phrase. Many/most seem to use it in the sense, "will that is free from control by God", or "Libertarian free will". That is the kind of "free will" that Arminians believe in. But it can also be understood in the perspective of, "a will that is free to follow the desires of man", which Calvinists agree that we have.
I don't know any Arminians who believe in libertarian free will, that is, will that is free from God or outside His provision, for obviously even our very existence is due to God; therefore, all our available choices are within God's providence too. Calvinists don't realize they engage in libertarian free will because they try to usurp themselves above God by claiming they were irresistibly selected when, obviously, God does not save someone by such proclamations. To be saved, you would need to repent and believe on Him to be regenerated. "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17.31). God can't call you to repent if you are unable to. That would be evil! You are evil to believe such evil.
You're not thinking this through properly. If God provides sufficient grace to all to be able to respond and He wants you to receive what His Son did on the cross then through the abundance God supplies, how is that free from the control of God? If a parent gives her child a toy and wants the child to play with it, how is the child's will free from the parent's control if the parent is giving the child the choice to play with it or not? True free will allows the choice. What you call free will is just a twisted charade because your child is irresistibly made to pretentiously enjoy playing with the toy. Really your child has no choice. You're fake! And frankly, you're boring. A dullard!
"A will free to follow the desires of man" is a will free to receive God's grace also, so Calvinists really don't accept true free will, but that of an evil tyrant which irresistibly imposes salvation. What love is that? I would even tell you what your god irresistibly imposes on its people is like putting them under the jail cell of living in the city of Geneva under the murderous protestant Pope of Geneva, and actually, those who would be preteritioned are freed from your demonic influence. Praise the Lord!
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Well, first off, your "objection" seems to be based on the (unBiblical) idea that God "owes" sufficient grace to everyone. He doesn't. God doesn't owe us anything, except the eternal torment of hell that our sins have earned us.
It is not that God owes sufficient grace, but that is His nature, being a holy, just and righteous God. How can God not do what is righteous, holy and true? Do we, let's say, give a person a life sentence in jail for committing a crime? No, of course not. God supplies that individual with sufficient grace to be able to repent. God doesn't owe eternal torment to anyone just because they were born into sin. It is not the fault of anyone they were born into sin, so God is obligated as always to do the right thing and supply each and every soul with His abundant prevenient grace. Obviously, this is something your god is unable to do because he is Satan masquerading as an angel of light, trying to counterfeit God's redemptive design. What you believe is demonic and unBiblical.
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Secondly, your "objection" that the elect are unable to "refuse" God's saving grace is without merit. I've yet to meet any saved individual who is angry at God for not "letting" them refuse His grace, quite the contrary, they are all glad that God saves them to the uttermost. It might be useful to compare irresistible grace to Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus didn't need to "accept" Christ's grace (nor could he have even if he had wanted to, he was dead!), nor did he have any kind of heart to "resent" what Christ had done for him. And so it is with those whom God has redeemed.
Your accusation I have an "objection that that elect are unable to refuse God's saving grace" is not what I believe it at all. I believe those who are elected will never perish. Why? Because they gave their lives to the God who keeps and God keeps His promise. This is the OSAS of Arminian. It would be like me asking my boss not to fire me even though I may at times falter. He keeps me because that is the relationship I entered into; that's what I wanted so God keeps His promise. Many of those saved are carnal Christians, but God won't let them go. In time they will be perfected because that is the relationship they asked of God to enter into with them. Their choice was a genuine one at the start as God requires, unlike Calvinists who just pompously declare they were irresistibly selected, and never did repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You did not enter into a real relationship with Jesus but have chosen a false Christ by your own free will (the very will you deny even exists).
Comparing Lazarus raised from the dead is a false comparison to your tyrannical irresistible grace. Lazarus was already saved so resurrection naturally follows. He did not get saved when he was resurrected. Even you will be resurrected one day to Hell, but not because you were preteritioned but because you refuse the God of sufficient grace and prefer to worship a god who sends the Jews to the gas chambers irresistibly for no other reason they were Jews. You don't realize what sick bastard you are! The truth is you like it that way.
Lazarus already accepted God and thus Christ. Just because he was dead doesn't change that fact. After I die, I am still saved. I simply await to be resurrected as a child of God. Since Lazarus was redeemed before he died, why would he resent His Creator whom he gave his life to? You're not making sense.
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1) The Bible teaches "total depravity".
2) The Bible doesn't teach "free will" (anywhere).
3) It is "free will" which is the "idol".
4) You are the "confused lot", You follow teachings of man, rather than the word of God.
As we have seen in all the verses discussed above none support Total Depravity. You always insert into the text that which is not there-typical of all cults who must insert their particular heresy. We have supported free will from many verses above, none of which suggest the will is not free to receive or reject God's saving grace. "God is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe" (1 Tim. 4.10), not the "Savior of all men but not from hell, specially those who believe" since those who believe would then not be saved from hell. Nor the "Savior of all men of different classes, specially those who believe" since that would be redundantly nonsensical. It reads just as it says: "God is the Savior of all men, specially those who believe" because "Savior of all men" is the sufficient grace for all men to freely respond with their free will. Amen. Ergo, Total Depravity is an idol that says you can't repent, so you don't and you won't, thus eternally separating yourself from God because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated.
It might not be that you are confused at all, but you prefer man's made up teachings to follow a man (John Calvin) instead receiving Jesus as He would have you clearly given in God's word. "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). The plain teaching of God's word! I have yet to find a child who reads the Bible as you do. They have a conscience not yet tainted by the world. I am fearful for those souls whom you might try to indoctrinate at the youngest age possible to manipulate them.
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You really need to lose the worthless rhetoric. It's not that the God of the Bible "can't" do this (as if He has "inability"), it's that the God of the Bible chooses not to do this. And nowhere does the Bible ever teach, "God provides sufficient grace to us all to have the choice", which is presumably why you didn't even pretend to try to give any citations for your false teaching.
God's word is no rhetoric. Lots of verses are given to you. Many more can be given to support God's prevenient grace, free will, conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, and preservation of the saints. These are basic teachings in God's word. Not hard to understand; even a child gets it. No child would accept the molested rendering of God's word you are trying to impose. It's since; you are a sick person for trying to insert it into God's word.
God chooses not to be holy and righteous? Surely you jest. All the verses given above, you have not countered that support the sufficiency of God's grace to all men, which obviously you clearly and outspokenly reject, thus you are not a Christian. "Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." The same "all men" in parallel!
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Logic 101 - When you begin with a false premise ("free will"), everything that is based on that false premise is equally false. There's only one Judge in all the world. And you ain't Him.
Is that suppose to be a valid argument for Calvinism when you accuse me of claiming to be God? Where in the heck have I ever done that? How obnoxious! God created me so how can I be God? You're attempting an emotional appeal like Satan as the false accuser, sinning bearing false witness (breaking the 9th commandment in Deut. 5), but really aren't you pretending to be God with your libertarian free will, since to be saved according to you all you have to do is usurp yourself above God by declaring apart from God you were irresistibly selected and did not have to (as God afforded you to) repent and believe on Him to be regenerated.
Do you realize you are a pelagian? A pelagian denies original sin, for original sin doesn't mean you are Totally Depraved, but that as a result of sin by the first man you are separated from God, hence God provides sufficient grace to all to be able to respond to what His Son did on the cross.
That's logic 101. Deal with it. When you start from a false premise of Total Depravity, naturally you will reject that man is made in God's image with free will, thus everything else you believe just falls apart: "And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up" (Matt. 13.4). You can consider yourself demonically possessed by those demons or fowls of the air that have devoured you which you freely allow in. The idol is erected you can't believe in Christ to be regenerated so as long as you maintain and cuddle this idol, so shall you remain unsaved and bound for Hell.
There is only one judge in the world, it is not you, nor is it your god, for your god is Satan. Don't you know Satan loses?
