Having Troubles Seeing the First Rapture According to Readiness?

re: JohnBaptistHenry - Youtube

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Originally Posted by JohnBaptistHenry

John would see Christ return and he did in the Revelation.

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Peter, John and James saw Jesus at the mount of transfiguration, but this does not refer to His return.

Jesus did not return for we are told when Jesus returns we will all know it. Obviously He did not return then. The things seen (Rev. 1), which are (Rev. 2 & 3) and which shall come to pass (Rev. 4-19) is how the vision is divided.

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The "outer darkness" of Matthew (8:12, 22:13, 25:30) is the same as "the blackness of darkness" that is "reserved" for the "twice dead" (Jude 12-13; cf 2 Pet 2:12-17).

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I agree. Twice dead but not unsaved. The judgment of fire comes upon them to burn off their fleshly works and hearts.

Outer darkness is simply outside the light of reward of reigning with Christ during the millennial kingdom. It is the loss of rewards for non-overcomers, though saved, will not be ready till the New City is built. So be warned of this consequence for carnal Christians.

These are non-overcomers in Jude 12-13, not those going to Hell. They have lost their reward so they are like "wandering stars" for a thousand years in outer darkness. Certainly the fire of hell will have to burn off the dross of their false works before they can be ready to enter the New City even outer darkness. The reward for overcomers is definite: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (v.14).

The reason why so many believers make no progress in their spiritual life is either because they do not walk in God’s will or because they do not know how to walk in God’s will. They have in their mind so many thoughts—each seeming to be God’s will—that they cannot discern what is the right walk. Due to their not walking according to the will of God, their spiritual lives remain stagnant. To those who do not at all seek after God’s will, I would beg them to do so. They must not be independent and follow after their own will, for God is our Redeemer who has the right to have us obey His will. Indeed, this is quite proper, whether the matter be viewed from the perspective of rights or from that of love. His great love has so constrained us that we cannot help but seek to do His will.

For those who do not know how to walk in God’s will, I would ask you to pay attention to the following considerations.

We must walk in the direct will of God and not in His permissive will. The direct will of God is that original mind in the heart of God which He commands us (or guides us) to follow. The permissive will of God, on the other hand, is that which He permits us to do after our (offtimes persistent) entreaties. Let us take the following as an example: The parents see the need one day of an outing for their children. So they take them out for a day. Days later, their children wish to take another trip because they love the beautiful scenery they witnessed the first time. The parents, however, do not see such a need. Yet due to their children’s persistent request and their failure to persuade the children otherwise, the parents finally permit them to go out a second time. Here we see that the first outing is the direct will of parents whereas the second outing is their permissive will. Many believers come to God asking—and even insistently so—for permission to do a certain thing, instead of coming to God inquiring if the thing in question is according to His will. This is truly lamentable!

A review of an incident recorded in the Old Testament will help us understand this matter better. In Numbers 22 we learn that the Moabite king, Balak, had sent emissaries to the prophet Balaam inviting him to come and curse the children of Israel. He promised to give the prophet great rewards, which moved the latter’s heart (see Jude 11, 2 Peter 2.15). Balaam indeed wanted to go, but having the fear of God in him, he felt he must ask Jehovah first before any decision was made. “And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people; for they are blessed” (Num. 22.12). This was unquestionably God’s direct will. Now after receiving this word from the Lord, Balaam ought to have given up any thought of going. But he told the princes of Balak, “Get you into your land; for Jehovah refuseth to give me leave to go with you” (v.13). How reluctant in sound is the word “refuse” that comes from the mouth of the prophet. It was as though Balaam had said to them. “It is not because I would not wish to go, but because the Lord does not allow me to go.” Whereupon Balak sent princes again to Balaam and promised to promote the latter into great honor. So Balaam came to God once more to ask.

How strange, Balaam! Did not God already tell you on your first approach to Him what His mind and will is? Why do you come to ask the Lord again? Do you think because you are moved by great honor that God too will be so moved? Do you think His will is subject to change? Do you not know that He is the same yesterday, today and forever?

Let us clearly understand here that if Balaam had really wanted to do God’s will, he should have frankly told these men on their second visit to him: “God already plainly told me last time that I should not go. So, please return. I will never go.” But his greediness so overcame him that he came and entreated Jehovah a second time. Then God said to Balaam: “Rise up, go with them” (v.20). What the Lord meant by His words was: “Since I am not able to restrain you, you may simply go.” Which thing the prophet did and went his way.

Now many today do not understand why the angel of Jehovah later came to block Balaam’s way to kill him, they not realizing that the way of Balaam was crooked before the Lord (see again 2 Peter 2.15,16 and Num. 22.32b). The same is true in the experience of many Christians today in their walk. They know already in their hearts that the Lord does not want them to do certain things, yet they still love to do them. And whenever opportunities come, therefore, they continue to annoy God by asking. Even though they may not do these things for a time, their hearts have nonetheless already departed from God. And if they eventually do get the Lord’s permission, who can question the discipline of the Lord which—as in the case of Balaam with the angel of Jehovah—may follow? For this reason, we must get the Lord’s “best,” not His “second best.” Whoever has a heart that is estranged from God and yet seeks the Lord’s will as a cover will be disciplined.

They will not only be disciplined today but in the millennial kingdom, losing the reward of the first rapture (Luke 21.36) and of returning with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. That's a long time.

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"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36) This verse has to do with being on the foundation (1 Cor 3:). Being accounted worthy is to be saved by and in the Worthy One (1 Thess 4:14, 16-17; 1 Cor 3:11). John the Baptist, the greatest OT prophet, knew that he was not worthy of the Lord Jesus (Luke 3:16, 7:28). The only thing that makes one worthy is Christ Himself.

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Of course Luke 21.36 has to do with the foundation unto rewards: "accounted worthy". Are all Christians watchful? Of course not. So not all believers alive at the start of the Tribulation will be raptured at the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation (8.7ff). John was not confessing he was a non-overcomer. In Luke 7.28 Jesus was not labeling John as a non-overcomer, but that to enter in the kingdom you will need something else, namely a regenerated spirit for the Holy Spirit to indwell. In the Old Testament though men had new life, Jesus had not yet died, so their spirits were not yet regenerated as the veil had not yet been rent.

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The only way to be saved is by God's grace through faith (Eph 2:8-9) and "... faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17) "Being born again, not of corruptible SEED, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Pet 1:23; Jam 1:18, 21). One born of God has His seed (Word) and witness in his regenerated spirit so his spirit cannot sin (1 Jn 3:9; 5:10). This is the meaning of "thou hast kept the Word of [Christ's] patience" (Rev 3:10).

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A Christian's spirit, soul and body can still sin, yet this is not their life "so they can't keep on sinning" (1 John 3.9b). Not all Christians keep the word of His patience. The Church is the saved and the Philadelphia church is the overcomer church so about 1/7th of those alive at the first rapture are raptured alive. 1 John 3.9 is speaking of the power over sin being in Christ. Only about 1/7th of Christians alive at the first rapture before the Tribulation keep the word of His patience to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world.

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Luke 21:36 simply means to make sure you are saved. "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5) "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure ..." (2 Pet 1:10) "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." (2 Cor 6:1; cf. 1 Cor 15:1-2)

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They already know they are saved, just as Paul knows he is saved. The question is are you an overcomer in Christ? We all overcome in Christ but not at the same time. There are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere. A person who is saved can't lose salvation because John 10.28 says "they shall never perish." Luke 21.36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Such words can not be spoken to someone unsaved or someone who could lose their salvation so it is spoken to someone who is saved but may not be ready to be received "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) to "stand before the Son of man," "before the Lamb". The sureness of election is unto rewards, so don't live like a reprobate. Don't take as it were just half the gospel of accepting forgiveness of sins without also realizing you have also died with Christ for power over sin and self and appropriating it.

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"... Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. ... We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and THE DEAD shall be RAISED incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED." (1 Cor 15:23, 51-52) This could not be clearer. Christ comes. Not all sleep, but ALL will receive glorified bodies simultaneously "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." Dead raised; living changed!

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If it is so clear why have you misread it? Since in 1 Cor. 15:50-52 (“We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed”) “all” is the word used, surely this signifies the whole body. Yes, the “all” here does indeed refer to the entire body, but it does not have reference to the same time. For example, we all will die, but certainly not all of us will do so in one day. Pray then for pretribber and posttribber onlyists to stop arguing with each other for partial rapture brings together both camps in first rapture being according to readiness.

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The carnal saved will have chastisement (Heb 12:5-11) here on earth and if that does not yield "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" they have the "sin unto death" (1 Jn 5:16; Rom 6:16; Jam 5:5:16, 19-20; 1 Cor 11:30-31) to look forward to. But the rapture is for all born again believers! "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Cor 11:31-32)

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The rapture is for everyone, but the same timing is not for everyone.

The Bible mentions a kind of mortal sin or “sin unto death” which believers may commit (1 John 5.16). The death here does not point to spiritual death, for the eternal life of God can never be extinguished; nor can it be an allusion to “the second death” since the Lord’s sheep cannot perish. It necessarily signifies the death of the body.

Now let us especially notice what the essence of mortal sin is. To do so will enable us to know how to keep ourselves away from it so that (1) our flesh may not be corrupted, (2) we may not forfeit the blessing of being raptured before death, or (3) we may still finish the Lord’s appointed work before our days are fulfilled and we die, if He should tarry and we must pass through the grave. May we say that because of their negligence in this matter quite a few of God’s children have had their years shortened and their crowns lost. Many of God’s workers, had they given attention to this, might yet be serving the Lord.

The Word has not spelled out concretely what this sin is. It only assures us that such a sin is possible. From the Scripture records we understand that this sin varies according to people. A particular sin for some is mortal, yet to another person it may not be a sin unto death, and vice versa. This is because of differences in grace received, light accepted, and position attained among different believers.

While the Bible never identifies this sin, we can nevertheless observe that any sin which results in death constitutes a mortal one. The people of Israel committed such a sin at Kadesh (Num. 13.25-14.12). Although they had tempted the Lord many times before (14.22), He always simply forgave them. But this time, though He still forgave them after they refused to enter Canaan, He additional caused their bodies to fall in death in the wilderness (14.32).

At the waters of Meribah Moses was provoked to speak “words that were rash” (Ps. 106.33) : this was his “mortal sin”: he died outside Canaan. Aaron committed the same offense as Moses and he likewise was forbidden to enter the holy land (Num. 20.24). The man of God who journeyed from Judah to Bethel disobeyed the commandment of the Lord with regard to eating and drinking; in so doing he committed his mortal sin (1 Kings 13.21-22). In the New Testament we learn how Ananias and Sapphira were punished with death because they committed what for them was their mortal sin, because they attempted to lie to the Holy Spirit by keeping back part of the proceeds from their land (Acts 5). The man in Corinth who lived with his father’s wife was guilty too of this kind of sin, forcing the Apostle Paul to pronounce judgment by telling those at Corinth “to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh” (1 Cor. 5.5). Not a few of the brethren in Corinth died because they were guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor. 11.27,30). They had committed the sin unto death.

To overcome mortality we must persistently overcome sin, for the former results from the latter. If we wish to live till our days are accomplished or till the Lord returns, we should be careful not to sin. Negligence in this has driven many to the grave prematurely. The mortal sin is not any particular terrifying transgression, because it is nowhere fixed or specified. Such a sin as fornication, of which the Corinthians were guilty, may be counted as mortal; but so too may rash words such as Moses uttered become a sin unto death (for note how the Scriptures characterized Moses: “now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth” Num. 12.3; therefore no sin could be overlooked in this man’s life).

Now is the day of grace. God is full of grace. So let our hearts be comforted. Do not allow Satan to accuse you, hinting that you have committed the mortal sin and hence must die. Although the Bible does not encourage us to pray for others who have sinned this mortal sin, God will forgive us if we judge ourselves and genuinely repent. The man in 2 Corinthians 2.6-7 is believed by many to be that very one who had lived with his father’s wife. In 1 Corinthians 11.30-32 we also are reminded that even though we may have committed the sin unto death, we can nevertheless escape death if we judge ourselves truly. Therefore never permit any sin to reign in your body lest it become your mortal sin. Our flesh can be weakened, yet we must never lose the heart of self-judgment. We must judge our sin without mercy. It is true that we can never attain to sinless perfection in this life, but frequent confession and trust in God’s grace are indispensable. God will yet forgive us. Those who seek victory over death need to remember this.

Then he declares to them their work and their transgressions, that they are behaving arrogantly. He opens their ears to instruction, and commands that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, they complete their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasantness. But if they do not hearken, they perish by the sword, and die without knowledge. The godless in heart cherish anger; they do not cry for help when he binds them. They die in youth, and their life ends in shame. (Job 36.9-14)

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Originally Posted by JohnBaptistHenry

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Originally Posted by Churchwork

A. Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life. If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

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I heard you say this in your video, but what people say is irrelevant. It is not a Scriptural argument. The Bible commands, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth." (2 Timothy 2:15) We ought to be like the Bereans who "... received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11)

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That's not a valid argument to overturn what was said since you don't address the points specifically. We need to rightly divide the word of truth and search the Scriptures daily, but how does this statement change the fact we see a first rapture before the Tribulation according to readiness, the rapture of martyrs during the Tribulation like the Two Witnesses, and a rapture and resurrection at the last trumpet? There may even be gleaning raptures during the last 24 months (bowls) of the Tribulation in the 7th Trumpet.

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B. Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.

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1. I posted 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 to a video where you spoke concerning B above. This passage proves that both spiritual and carnal Christians will be judged together. Again the passage says:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; EVERY MAN'S WORK shall be made manifest: for THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

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There is nothing in this passage that suggests anything about everyone having to stand at the Judgment Seat at the same exactly split second, so why assume it? If we see raptures before the Tribulation, during the Tribulation and at the end of the Tribulation then it stands to reason they come before the Judgment Seat in succession, logically speaking. Both spiritual and carnal Christians come before the Judgment Seat, but nowhere can you find they do so at the same moment. Let us drop all self-imposed legalizations.

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When does this occur? "And now, little children, abide in him; that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, we may have confidence, and NOT BE ASHAMED before him AT HIS COMING. ... Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 2:29, 3:2)

It occurs at the Judgment Seat of Christ directly after the Rapture. "For we must ALL appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10) 2. "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should NOT BE CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD." (1 Cor 11:31-32)

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Again, those who are saved will "all appear before the Judgment Seat" but none of these verses say it must be at the same time. You are struggling to find that verse to support your idea because it doesn't exist. Let us assume nothing then.

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3. According to Scripture "God hath not appointed us to WRATH" (1 Thess 5:9), but rather will "delivered us from the WRATH to come" (1 Thess 1:10). The Thessalonians are our case in point: They repented and "turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (v. 1:9), and believed God having "received the Word" (v. 1:6; cf Jam 1:21). Here are the passages in more context:

"For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. ... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we WAKE or SLEEP, we should live together with him." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9-10)

So we understand from the Scriptures, not from what people think, but from God's Word, that carnal believers will be ashamed before the Lord at His coming, and they receive chastisement here in this life, but "... we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ." (Rom 14:10)

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The wrath is specifically the bowls which last 24 months. Hence, the general rapture and resurrection take place at the start of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11.15) not at the end of the Tribulation since Christians are not appointed unto wrath.

Christians know we will "live together with him". Again, this passage also does not say we all go to the Judgment Seat at the same time. I can see you are trying hard, but you have failed to defend your beliefs. Perhaps consider you are wrong then. Of course, this would take humility on your part. Are you prepared to be humbled before God? We whom are saved (I am not saying you are saved) will "stand before the Judgment Seat" but not at the same moment.