First rapture takes place at Rev. 7.9 and the last trumpet rapture and resurrection take place at 11.15. This is called partial rapture with the first rapture being according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).
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Originally Posted by Enoch
What is your basis on how to judge for which ones are more spiritual?
The ordering stipulated in Rev. 7.1-8 and the Old Testament, such as what was mentioned about Judah and Northern Israel and Dan already.
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I will ask another way. If something is literal an one part, Why then must it be taken literal in another?
This is too vague a question. God deals in specifics, so if you want to ask something, ask specifically. Take the full Word into account.
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Why, then, does the wall of the city have twelve foundations then? Furthermore around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones was twenty four elders sitting; the 12 sons of Jacob and the twelve Apostles.
It has 12 foundations in remembrance of the 12 Apostles who were the first Apostles. How important Apostles are for they are directly commissioned by God to appoint Elders of a locality according to Biblical locality.
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Furthermore around the throne were twenty four thrones, and on the thrones was twenty four elders sitting; the 12 sons of Jacob and the twelve Apostles.
These 24 elders are 24 archangels, the eldest elders of the universe. They are seated on thrones now while Christ is standing. Would the church be seated on thrones before the Church is raptured? No one is raptured to 3rd heaven yet, not even David. You don't come before the High Priest naked. Before you can enter 3rd heaven, you need to receive a newly clothed spiritual body which we shall receive together (1 Thess. 4.15-17).
As regards the 24 elders, it is rather absurd to deem them as signifying the glorified church, Israel, 12 Apostles or 12 Patriarchs, for the following reasons:
(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.
(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?
(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.
(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.
(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?
(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.
(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.
(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.
(9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.
(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.
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It sais, 7:4 “hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” But ALL were not really sealed. There is minus Dan & Ephraim.
This has already been explained in a previous post how the OT treats Dan. Dan will have some association with the Antichrist. All 144,000 were really sealed. There are 12 tribes named, 12,000 from each tribe. In God's infinite foreknowledge, He knew to replace Dan with another for the purposes of preserving a remnant, just as Judas was replaced.
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A seal is a seal as the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
The church is sealed for rapture. Israel is not sealed for rapture. Bother foreordained by the Holy Spirit, but the application is not the same. The secretive seals of the past 20 centuries also show us another application by the Holy Spirit. They are secret, because the world doesn't understand them, even many in the kingdom of heaven don't understand their application. Once the Tribulation starts, added clarity will be given to them, for example, pertaining to exactly what specific events associated to the 6th seal before the Tribulation started. I am pretty sure what events they are though. The more spiritual your walk, the more you will be accurate to the account.
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Israel does have that relationship by then because they must accept Him as Saviour to receive the Seal to be raptured.
Israel is not raptured as a whole. It is a nation as are other nations. For someone to be raptured, they must come to the cross and enter into the body of Christ. The seal of Israel is the covenant promise she will be the center of all nations in which God will save a remnant of this nation. It is not for rapture.
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I see the “Israel of God” being The Christian Church and the Nation of Israel together because Israel accepted Christ as there Savior by then. The rest of Israel are part of the “Harlot” in Rev. 17. Then at the end of the Tribulation will a remnant be saved into the millennium as shall other nations.
Israel did not accept Christ by then, but when Christ stepped down on the mount of olives at the end of the 84 months of the Tribulation. Israel as a nation will be the center of all nations. She won't be the Harlot spoken of in Rev. 17, for this woman who sits on the beast is religious "Rome" which is to say, the Roman Catholic Church and any marriages she makes with the gibberish babble of false tongues in Pentecostalism (called RCC Charismatics) or other large bodies dividing the body of Christ falsely with false teachings. The Antichrist though will destroy the RCC because it is in name in Christ. The RCC will be destroyed before the millennium starts, for she makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8).
The Israel of God is the Church because the true Jew is the Christian. Abraham saw God as Father. He proved Him to be the Source of all things. Isaac received the inheritance as a son. It is a blessed thing to have a gift bestowed upon us by God. Yet even what we receive we may seize upon and spoil. Jacob attempted to do this, and was only saved from the consequences by having his natural strength undone. There must be a day in our experience when this happens. The characteristic of those who truly know God is that they have no faith in their own competence, no reliance upon themselves. When Jacob learned this lesson, then in truth there began to be an Israel of God.
The salvation of a nation is not the same thing as a salvation unto eternal life. The former allows that nation to enter into the millennium. The latter receives rapture.
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There is no article
The article was already given which is in the KJV, RSV and ASV, preceded by "a" in Rev. 7.4 and 14.1. Go to your Lexicon. It says "uncertain affinity" and "a hundred...". It does not say "the..."
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There is only one rapture and this and it the same rapture as 7:9.
The reason that an angle is proclaiming everlasting gospel in 14:6 is that there are no Christians to do it then.
If you are a Christian, and you don't keep the Word of His patience (were unprayerful and unwatchful) God will put you through the Tribulation, even to be martyred. There will be lots of martyred Christians during the Tribulation, who were not yet ready to be received before the throne at the first rapture (Rev. 7.9).
(1) By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.
(2) The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.
(3) Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage relates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.
The rapture that occurs first at Rev. 7.9 (first rapture) takes place before the trumpets of the Tribulation. The rapture near the end of the Tribulation is at 1 Thess. 4.15-17; 1 Cor. 15.23, 50-52) of the last trumpet. God says to escape the Tribulation, you will need to keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) and keep watchful and prayerful (Luke 21.36).
Rev. 14.6, 7 (cf. with v.8) “THE FIRST ANGEL”
14.6 “Another angel” - He is different from the “another angel” spoken of in 7.2 that points to the Lord.
“Eternal good tidings”-The eternal gospel or good tidings is different from the gospel of grace. From the description which follows (14.7), it can be concluded that this eternal gospel is for the purpose of inducing people to worship the Creator. The eternal gospel preaches not God’s redemption but His creation. It does not call man to worship the Lamb but to worship God. It does not proclaim the grace of God, only His judgment. It exhorts people to give glory to God.
Those meant by the phrases “them that dwell on the earth” and “every nation and tribe and tongue and people” (14.6) are not the same. The first refers to that special class of people from among the second-those who are especially related to the earth and who love worldly things most dearly. The future kingdom of Antichrist will only be as big as the Roman Empire, yet its influence will reach every nation and tribe and tongue and people. The words “them that dwell on the earth” may allude to those who dwell within the Roman Empire.
The gospel presented at this juncture is not proclaimed to cause people to believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved; instead, it is to teach them to worship God and not the image of the beast.
How do the sheep mentioned in Matthew 25.34-40 know to treat our Lord’s little brother well (see v.40)? It is due to the influence of the proclamation of the angel here.
14.7 “Fear God”-It is clear in the Old Testament that to be kind to others is indicative of the people’s fearing God. Since the hour of judgment is come, let people fear God and give glory to Him.
Heaven is damaged at the fourth trumpet. The earth is damaged at the first trumpet; the sea, at the second; and the fountains of all waters, at the third.
14.8 “A SECOND ANGEL”
To what does this city of Babylon refer? To Babylon or to Rome? The Babylon in chapter 17 is a mystery and has reference to Rome as a religious system. The Babylon here in 14.8 is also connected with the Roman religious system, for the description concerning both is the same. So that the second angel notifies the world that Babylon is fallen; that us to say, the Roman religious system is defeated. From this we can infer that the big harvest (7th trumpet rapture and resurrection) follows upon the defeat of the Roman religious system.
“The wine of the wrath of her fornication” signifies the oppression which the Roman religious system will mete out to people. To those unfaithful to the Lord will she give the wine of fornication; and to the faithful will she give the wine of wrath. Wine speaks of that which bewilders people.
The Roman religious system will be revived, but she will also be totally destroyed.
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We have a different meaning of MountZion. People are raptured to the third Heaven. Harlot Israel will not be raptured at all but only the ones who repent and accept Christ when He lands on Mt.Carmle to split it. They enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ along with those who do the same after the rapture.
If you are a Christian, you should have the same meaning of Zion that I do since it holds the same principle throughout the Word of God.
The Principle of Overcomers
The way God works, as illustrated in His Holy Scriptures, is to find a few as a nucleus in order to reach the many. This was true in the patriarchal age. At that time God chose people individually: those such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. Later on through Abraham (the few) God reaches the whole nation of Israel (the many)—that is to say, God reaches the dispensation of the law through the patriarchal age. Then from the dispensation of the law (the nation of Israel) God reaches to the dispensation of grace (the church out of all nations); and likewise from the dispensation of grace He will reach to the dispensation of the kingdom (the entire world), and from the dispensation of the kingdom to the new heaven and the new earth (the new creation), for the kingdom is the prologue to the new heaven and the new earth. So then, the principle of God’s operation is from the few to the many.
". . . the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increaseth with the increase of God" (Col. 2.19). The joints are for supplying, while the bands are for knitting. The Head holds the body together through these joints and bands. And these joints and bands are the overcomers.
Jerusalem typifies the whole church, whereas Zion—which is in Jerusalem—represents the overcomers in the church. Jerusalem is larger than Zion, yet Zion is the stronghold of Jerusalem. What answers to the heart of God is called Zion; that which speaks of the failure and sins of the Jews is called Jerusalem. God allows Jerusalem to be trodden down, but He usually keeps Zion intact. There will be a new Jerusalem, but there is no new Zion because Zion never grows old.
Each time the relationship between Zion and Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament we are shown that the characteristics, life, blessing and establishing of Jerusalem are invariably derived from Zion. The elders were in Jerusalem, the ark was to be in Zion (1 Kings 8.1). God does good in His good pleasure to Zion, and He builds the walls of Jerusalem (Ps. 51.18). God’s name is in Zion, while His praise is in Jerusalem (Ps. 102.21). God blesses out of Zion, and Jerusalem receives the good of it (Ps. 128.5). The Lord dwells in Jerusalem, yet He receives praises out of Zion (Ps. 135.21). God speaks first to Zion, and then the good tidings reach Jerusalem (Is. 41.27). He dwells in Zion and thus sanctifies Jerusalem (Joel 3.17).
God today is seeking, among the defeated church, 144,000 (a representative figure, to be sure) to stand on mount Zion (Rev. 14.1). Each and every time, He uses relatively few believers as channels to pour forth life into the church for her revival. As their Lord did, these few must pour forth blood in order to let life flow. The overcomers are to stand on the ground of victory for the church and instead of the church. They are to endure sufferings and shames.
Therefore, God’s overcomers must forsake all self-complacencies, pay the cost, let the cross cut off all that comes out of the old creation, and stand against the gates of Hades (Matt. 16.18).
Are you willing to hurt your own heart that you may gain God’s heart? Are you ready to let yourself be defeated so that the Lord may triumph? When your obedience is made full, God will quickly avenge all the disobedience (2 Cor. 10.6).
There is the first rapture of the overcomer believers before the Tribulation; then the rapture of the martyrs individually during the Tribulation like the Two Witnesses are raptured 3.5 days after they die; there is the last trumpet rapture which is in the first month of the last trumpet (19th month of the Great Tribulation at the 3rd woe); Christ appears at the 42nd month of Great Trib.; and there are the gleanings raptures which follow the last trumpet rapture. The gleanings are in the last 24 months of the Tribulation and may be included also from the 1260th day to the 1290th day, before Israel receives her glory.
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I believe all Christians are overcomers.
All Christians are to overcome, though they do not do so at the same time. For example, some Christians don't keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10) so they are not accounted worthy to be received at the first rapture. Some believers do not keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7, or they are not watchful and prayerful. In each church period there are overcomers and non-overcomers in the Church as stipulated in Rev. 2 & 3, those that receive rewards to reign during the millennium and others that do not. This is called accountability. Under your teaching, there is no accountability, so you can lie on a bed of fornication without consequences, so you think. This is actually a heresy called antinomianism for those who think they can abuse Christianity and get away with it. Non-overcomers do not reign (Rev. 20.4) in the millennium, but are disciplined in outer darkness after the judgment seat for believers, which has no fire or furnace about it.
I already said.
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God is dealing with Israel, not Rome.
Whereas your god is only dealing with Israel, so you think, my God is dealing with Israel and Rome, even religious Rome and political Rome. My God trumps your god.
[quote]Rome is not married to any one, but Israel is(was) married to God. After the Church and true Israel is raptured, all that is left is the whore.[quote]
The Roman Catholic Church-religious Rome, the great harlot-and all the little harlots, are indeed married to the world, as is political Rome. Only the Church is raptured which is true Israel. Israel the nation, like other nations, will not be raptured, but is grafted back into the olive tree to be the center of all nations. At first rapture of the Church, religious Rome, the woman who sits on the beast, is still operating on earth, but through the process of the Tribulation it will be dismantled by the Antichrist, for it is if only in name in Christ. This agrees with the verses you cites: Rev. 17.2, Ez. 16.26, Rev. 17.4, Ex. 28.5-9,39.1-29; Jer. 4.30-31, 1 Thess. 2.15; Rev. 17.5, 9; Isa. 1.21, Rev. 17.6, Matt. 23.34-37, Luk 11.47-51, Acts 7.58-60. Israel is subject to sin, just as anyone is. God deals with the Jews, the Gentiles and Christians. He is a respecter of no persons (Acts. 10.34).
The long section from Rev. 17.1 to 18.24 is best to be taken as one single chapter. Please note also that 18.1-3 serves as transitional words, since they conclude what has been spoken previously and commence what is next going to be said; for these verses mention the following three things:
(1) “By the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen”—only chapter 17 mentions this (17.2);
(2) “The merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness”—only chapter 18 mentions this (18.11,15); and
(3) “The kings of the earth committed fornication with her”—both chapters 17 and 18 speak about this (17.2, 18.9).
The word “Babylon” comes from “Babel”: It is recorded in Genesis 10 and 11 that Nimrod built the city of Babel in the land of Shinar. It was he who tried to protect himself by his own strength. The origin of the tower of Babel is found in Genesis 11.1-4. God confounded the language of the people and scattered them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Hence the city was called “Babel” (11.9). “Babel” or “Babylon” simply means “confusion”. Idol-worship began there, and it stood in opposition to God.
The city grew larger and larger until it reached its golden age at the time of Nebuchadnezzar. Due to the unfaithfulness of the children of Israel, God delivered them into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon.
In the days of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of a huge image: and by interpretation he himself was the image’s head of gold, the most prosperous period in the history of Babylon; then Medo-Persia (the image’s arms of silver) destroyed Babylon, and the city became desolate. Later on, Greece (the image’s belly of brass) destroyed Medo-Persia; and Greece was in turn destroyed by Rome (the image’s legs of iron). Babylon was therefore the first kingdom, while Rome was the last kingdom. And these four kingdoms oppressed the Jews. Three kingdoms have already passed away, but Rome has continued on. The ten toes of the image have yet to appear. Now just as Babylon had greatly worshiped idols and deeply hated the Jews, so has Rome.
Rome was not only politically a city, it was also a center of religion. In the city of Rome were to be found many Christians, yet Rome hated Christians the most. Not until the fourth century after Christ did Constantine the Great accept Christianity and encourage his people to do the same. With the result that Christianity became the official religion of Rome. At the same time, though, the center of politics shifted from Rome to Constantinople. Rome itself became subject to the rule of Constantinople and remained that way until the sixth century. At the time of Leo a general council was held at Constantinople wherein idol-worship was condemned as heretical and illegal. Rome opposed this, and she broke with Constantinople. Thus were formed the Eastern Roman Church (the Greek Orthodox Church) and the Western Roman Church (the Roman Catholic Church). The influence of the Eastern Roman Church began to wane, but that of the Western Roman Church increased steadily. A great number of Christians suffered death at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.
According to Revelation 17 and 18 the Roman Catholic Church will experience tremendous growth in the future, far exceeding that of the past. Her influence will be enormous. But when Antichrist shall arise and set up his image as an object of worship, he with his ten subordinate kings shall destroy the Roman Church. Nevertheless, with the passing of Rome religious, Rome political will still continue. She will make the Mediterranean Sea a center of her influence. Three and a half years later, God will destroy Rome political.
Why is it that chapters 17 and 18 do not mention Rome plainly, but use Babylon instead? Because John lived under the reign of Rome. If he should have plainly written of Rome, his writing might not have been able to be circulated—yet not that John was afraid to write explicitly, but that the Holy Spirit intended to have it hidden. Nevertheless, the same Spirit is concerned lest people take Babylon as being literal. So in Revelation 17.5 He declares:
(1) “Mystery, Babylon the Great”—Being a mystery, it must be spiritual and not literal in its interpretation. For instance, if in 11.8 Jerusalem had been plainly mentioned, the Jews would have immediately risen up in arms. So that a spiritualized form of writing is here used.
(2) By saying Babylon the Great instead of simply Babylon, it intimates that this Babylon is much greater than the actual Babylon of the past. Such a rendering thus helps the reader to know that Babylon is not to be taken as Babylon literally but is to be understood as standing for Rome.
Why Babylon Here Points to Rome
(1) Only one city in the world is built on seven hills or mountains, and that is the city of Rome. Rome historically is called the seven-hilled city (cf. 17.9).
(2) “Fallen” in 17.10 has reference, as we have indicated before, to violent death. Some were murdered, some committed suicide. At the time of John’s writing this book, the king who was then living must have been a Roman Caesar.
(3) Besides the king of Rome there was none else at that time who reigned over the kings of the earth (cf. 17.18).
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (v.18).
In What Respects Babylon Resembles Rome
(1) Babylon was the first nation which broke through to the Jewish holy land and entered the holy place. But so did Rome.
(2) Babylon, as we have said, means confusion. How very greatly confused was Rome also—and still is! She mixed up the church with the country, the church with the world, law with grace, the traditions of men with the word of God, the pagans with the Christians, Judaism with Christianity, God’s promises to the church with His promises to the Jews, the carnal with the spiritual, the earthly with the heavenly, the present rejection with the future glory. In fact, she is the center of all mixtures. How extensive is her confusion indeed!
(3) The church fathers themselves regarded Rome as Babylon. Tertullian noted that Babylon was Rome. Jerome said, “When I dwelt in Babylon and resided within the walls of the scarlet adulteress, and had the freedom of Rome, I undertook a work concerning the Holy Spirit, which I proposed to ascribe to the Bishop of that city.” And Augustine said, “Babylon is a former Rome, and Rome a later Babylon.” *
(4) Some prominent Romish writers such as Robert Bellarmine, Cesare Baronius, Jacques Bossuet, and Hug have also admitted that Babylon meant Rome. Bellarmine, for example, wrote this: “Moreover, John in the Apocalypse everywhere calls Rome Babylon.” **
* Robert Govett, The Apocalypse Expounded, London: Chas. J. Thynne, 1920, p. 442.
** Govett, Ibid., p. 442.
There is a school of thought which maintains that Babylon points only to political Rome, not to religious Rome. This concept, though, is erroneous. If Babylon only refers to political Rome, why should “fallen” be mentioned twice in 14.8 and 16.19? For the event represented by the word “fallen” in 14.8 happens before the setting up of the image of the beast; therefore it is an event occurring during the first three and a half years. But the “fallen” (“fell”) told about in 16.19 takes place at the time of the seventh bowl, that is to say, after the setting up of the image of the beast. Hence there must be two different aspects of Babylon in view. This fits in perfectly with both religious Rome (since “Babylon” means confusion, and this confusion prevails in the realm of religion) and political Rome (since “Rome” in Hebrew means “the one who exalts himself”, and how she exalts herself in opposition to God).
"And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev. 14.8).
"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath" (Rev. 16.19).
“Mystery, Babylon the Great” alludes to the religion of Rome. The reasons for this view are:
(1) “The great harlot that sitteth upon many waters” (17.1). This harlot is a city. Since the city of Rome is never built on many waters (there is only one river in the city of Rome), this harlot cannot be applied to political Rome.
(2) “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth” (17.9). As indicated earlier, Rome is built on seven mountains and she is called ‘the seven-hilled city. Since this seven-hilled city points to political Rome, the harlot here who sits on the seven mountains cannot herself be representative of political Rome but must stand for religious Rome that sits above political Rome.
(3) “And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder” (17.6). Should this woman point to political Rome, where is the wonder or surprise to be found in that? She instead must be religious Rome, and hence the amazement. It is not at all surprising for the nations to persecute Christians; but for the Roman Church to persecute Christians, this is really astounding.
(4) The “fornication” mentioned in 17.2 cannot be applied to something physical, it has to be a reference to something doctrinal in nature. A physical city is unable to commit physical fornication; so that what is meant here must have application to religious Rome.
"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (rev. 17.2).
(5) Political Rome controls the kings of the earth, hence it is not possible for political Rome to commit fornication with them. The great harlot in 17.2 is without doubt religious Rome.
Nevertheless, Babylon also has reference to political Rome, for the following reasons:
(1) According to 17.16 the end of the woman comes when she is burned by the beast (Antichrist) and ten horns (ten subordinate kings). But in 18.8 she is judged by God. For this reason, 17.16 has reference to the religious aspect whereas 18.8 has reference to the political aspect.
"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire" (Rev. 17.16).
"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her" (Rev. 18.18).
(2) In 18.7 it reads: “She saith in her heart, I sit a queen”; but by the time of 17.16 she is already dethroned by the beast and the ten kings. How, then, can it still be said in 18.7 that she sits a queen? This is possible only because one speaks of religious Rome and the other of political Rome.
(3) Chapter 17 is largely symbolic, while the latter half of chapter 18 is almost entirely literal. The angel explains to John what is shown in chapter 17 because it is allegorical; but the second part of chapter 18 needs no interpretation since it is not symbolic.
(4) After 8.13 records “Woe, woe, woe”, there in fact do come three woes shortly thereafter. Similarly, when 18.2 mentions “fallen, fallen”, there must be two fallings to come; one, the fall of political Rome; the other, the fall of religious Rome.
(5) There are two Jerusalems referred to in this book: one is on earth and one, in heaven. Likewise, there are to be found the two aspects of Rome in this book: one which is political and one religious. These two are distinguishable but not separable.
17.1 This begins the narration of the things that are to occur after the pouring out of the seven bowls. Is it not interesting that one of the seven angels who has the seven bowls signifies the New Jerusalem to John in direct contrast with what is said in 17.1? Before the harlot is judged, God cannot show forth the wife of the Lamb.
The phrase “many waters” here in 17.1 indicates “Peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues” (see 17.15). The harlot sits upon peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. In other words, the influence of Rome extends throughout the entire world. How the Romish system frequently styles itself as the mistress and mother of all churches.
Why does God call this woman a harlot? Because she communicates and commingles with the world. She has so broadened the communion of the saints as to hold inter course with the world. What she gains is worldly pleasure and earthly glory. She has become savorless salt. A harlot is one who commits fornication without the due process of marriage. An adulteress is a woman who commits fornication after being married. God therefore calls her a harlot, since a harlot is a woman who commits fornication before marriage; thus signifying that God has never recognized the relationship between the Roman Church and Christ. Like a harlot, the Roman Church has not kept her virginity for Christ.
This woman is called a “great harlot”: Had the Roman Catholic Church observed Matthew 5-7, she could not be great—she could only develop into a “little flock” (Luke 12.32). Her testimony would simply be that the world is rebellious and that Christ shall come again to judge it. Her being “great” is exactly what the Lord predicted in Matthew 13.32.
"Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds [as demons] of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof" (Matt. 13.32).
In this connection we need to read Genesis 1 which states that “the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind” (v.12). Yet Matthew 13 records the Lord Jesus as saying this: “When it is grown, it is greater than the herbs, and becometh a tree” (v.32). A herb is not to be a tree. Hence the greatness here described in Revelation is the greatness of a harlot. Please observe that the Romish pope is greater than an emperor. An emperor can only control a man’s body, but a pope can control a man’s soul, yes, even that of the emperor’s. Now such a situation is not at all normal for the church on earth.
17.2 “With whom the kings of the earth committed fornication”—By way of explanation please consider the following:
(1) In order to please the kings of the earth, the Roman Church was willing to baptize them as long as they wished to be baptized. Thus, she auctioned away the principles of Christ and the word of God.
(2) She made the church co-extensive with the state. Christianity became the state religion of Rome. Anyone who was born a Roman could be a Christian. Normally the church was smaller than the state, but now she became equally as big.
(3) The Church joined to herself the political powers of kings and rulers. The foremost sin of fornication she can commit is to force Christianity on the people by means of the powers of kings and emperors. This was done not only by Rome but also by many other nations. The result was to make merely nominal Christians out of people.
To commit fornication with the kings of the earth is said to be, interpretively speaking, the Roman Church’s direct relationship with them. But the verse, “and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication”, speaks of her indirect relationship with the people on earth. Wine here signifies heresies. The Romish Church has caused people on earth to lose their self-determination and to become foolish through heretical doctrines. On the one hand she has taught that by giving a little money and by making confession to a priest a person’s sin may be forgiven, but on the other hand she has failed to instruct people how they ought to live a holy life. She allows them to indulge in worldly pleasures. Indeed, this wine of her fornication has made the whole world drunk. It is quite true that without religion no one could live on earth. For this reason, the Roman Church is most palatable to the taste of the world. She disregards spiritual reality on the one hand, yet on the other uses all sorts of religious rituals to create emotional comforts as well as glowing expectation within the hearts of the people.
So has been the Church of Rome, and so shall she be revived in the future. Once a Roman Catholic, one dies a Roman Catholic. Several big denominations in the United States had no increase during one year, whereas the Roman Catholics added several millions to their record and still by far remains the largest.
17.3 “Wilderness” may be interpreted spiritually, for the world is referred to in Scripture as a wilderness (Ps. 107.33,34); or it may be interpreted literally, since the vicinity of Rome itself has been called a “marble wilderness” by some.*
* Govett, op. cit., p. 428.
"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns" (Rev. 17.3).
“A woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast”—This beast represents the Roman Empire, for the seven heads and ten horns are merely part of it; it also points to Antichrist, because even though he is the eighth head he nevertheless possesses all the villainy of the other seven as well as the powers of the ten horns. God looks upon Antichrist as just a wild beast. Moreover, He looks upon this woman as a harlot, for she is not as irrationally vicious as a wild beast, though she abandons her rationality and acts a harlot.
“A woman sitting upon . . . a beast”—This speaks of the union of the Roman Church with the Roman state. How this woman has made use of the state! If a local magistrate had offended a Roman Catholic priest, the pope might have issued an interdict upon the city, prohibiting the celebration of mass and thus stirring up the people against their magistrate. Or if the Roman Church had wished for any action to be taken against some people, she would not have acted directly; instead, she would have instigated the Roman state to act. The woman’s influence is as great as that of the beast, because she rides on the beast.
The color of the beast is red as that of the dragon is red. This indicates that this beast comes out of the dragon; therefore, it is the same as the dragon.
“Full of names of blasphemy”—This is different from the words of blasphemy. The words “names of blasphemy” mean calling oneself with the names used of God. How the Roman caesars were accustomed to employing divine titles!
17.4 “Purple”—This is the color adopted in the Roman Empire as the symbol of honor and power. For example, a Roman senator had a broad strip of purple on the breast, while a knight had a narrow strip of it. The emperor wore a purple robe. For the woman to be thus arrayed in purple means that she is in possession of earthly glory (note that the rich man cited in Luke 16.19 wore a robe of purple).
Purple is not a basic color since it is the combination of blue and red colors. Blue is the heavenly color, but red is the earthly (for note that the Biblical place-name Edom means red, and therefore this color denotes that which is earthly). Hence purple is the blending of heaven and earth.
Scarlet is the color of Rome—“‘I caused this inquiry to be made of an intelligent gentleman who had passed much time in Rome, without his knowing my design,’ said Barnes. ‘What would strike a stranger on visiting Rome, or what would be likely particularly to arrest his attention as remarkably there?’ And he unhesitatingly replied, ‘The scarlet color.’” *Scarlet is the special color of the ecclesiastical cardinals as well as the popes. The cardinals are so called since their dresses, their hats, their cloaks, and their stockings are always of scarlet. In the case of the pope, even the inner lining of his cloak is scarlet; and the costume of his bodyguard is also scarlet. Whenever the pope travels, he is welcomed with decorations of scarlet color.
* Govett , op. cit., p.430.
“And decked with gold and precious stone and pearls”—All these things represent the truths of God. The Roman Church, like this woman, adorns herself with these outwardly (cf. 1 Peter 3.3, 1 Tim. 2.9); yet her real condition is most abnormal in the sight of God.
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel" (1 Peter 3.3).
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim. 2.9).
“Having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations”—This woman has no crown on her head for she is not a genuine queen, neither does she hold a staff in her hand since she is not supposed to possess any earthly authority. Instead she has in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, which speaks of her seducing power. Her victory is gained not by any direct authority, but through her seductive influence.
A metal was once struck by the pope in which a woman was holding in her hand a golden cup; and the caption read: “She sits upon the universe”! Unconsciously, the Roman Church acknowledges herself as that woman.
17.5 “And upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great”—She is a mystery, and yet this mystery is written on her forehead for everyone to read. This implies that whoever has an eye can perceive the meaning of this mystery.
God recognized Jerusalem as the center of worship (religious) as well as the center of earthly dominion (political). The error of the Roman Church is to presume that God has established her in lieu of Jerusalem, thus making herself both a religious and political center. What Jerusalem is rightfully to be in the millennial kingdom is what the Roman Church has today already assumed. Jerusalem has suffered so much, even after 430 years in slavery to Egypt!
“The mother of the harlots”—Being herself the great harlot, all that come out of this woman are harlots. These are the state churches, since their institutional systems are similar to that of Rome. Any church group that is united with the world is a small harlot. (For example, membership is not based on regeneration, but is granted to any who pledge to give support financially; also, the qualification for taking communion or the Lord’s Supper is membership instead of salvation; and so forth).
“Mother . . . of the abominations of the earth”—Abominations in Old Testament times always pointed to idols (see Deut. 7.25,26). The Roman Church is known for her idol-worshiping. She worships Mary, angels, apostles, saints, and so forth. Her split with Constantinople was over this matter of her idol-worshiping.
"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold [that is] on them, nor take [it] unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it [is] an abomination to the LORD thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: [but] thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it [is] a cursed thing" (Deut. 7.25,26).
17.6 This verse tells us what this woman did prior to what she will even more intensely and cruelly do in the future. Notice carefully that this verse does not say that the woman herself shed the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus; it merely states that she was “drunken with [their] blood”: The Roman Church never slays people with her own hands, she instead uses the authority of the Roman state to kill. Whereas she is the instigator, it is the Roman state that directly persecutes the Christians.
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Rev. 17.6).
She will martyr Christians in the Tribulation.
The word “saints” here includes also the Jews, for in the future not only those who have the testimony of Jesus but also those who are Jews will suffer persecution from the hand of the Roman Church.
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I believe that John Marveled because he was shocked as you are.
John is surprised because the persecution of Christians comes from a people who profess to believe in Christ. How can he not wonder with a great wonder? It is not so surprising a thing to me since it has already occurred in past centuries. Did I burst your bubble?
It should be noted that 17.1-6 records the vision John saw; 17.7 begins the interpretation given by the angel. Consequently, the section found in 17.7-18 should be taken literally.
17.7 The angel is going to tell John the mystery of the seven heads and ten horns.
"And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns" (Rev. 17.7).
17.8 The angel explains to John that the beast he saw has four stages of history; namely, the beast (1) was, (2) is not, (3) is about to come out of the abyss, and (4) will go into perdition.
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" (Rev. 17.8).
In the book of Revelation this beast, as has been said, represents Antichrist as well as the Roman Empire. In this connection, though, it points to a man, not to a state. The reasons for this view are as follows:
(1) This beast “was”—How then can we say that the Roman Empire once existed earlier prior to the time of John?
(2) The beast “is not”—Yet neither can we say that the Roman Empire did not exist at John’s time.
(3) The beast “is about to come up out of the abyss”—Abyss is the place where the spirits are imprisoned. How can we therefore say that the Roman Empire is about to come out of the abyss?
(4) The beast is “to go into perdition”—How, moreover, can we say that the political entity known as the Roman Empire will go into hell in the future?
Since, from this reasoning, this beast cannot apply to the Roman Empire, it must have reference to Antichrist. “Was” shows that before the time of John there was such a person who once lived on earth.
“Is not” indicates that at John’s time this man is not in the world since he must have died. The phrase “is not” is also used in Genesis 42.36-38 to indicate death.
“Is about to come up out of the abyss” reveals that he is now in the abyss but will come out of it, that is to say, he will be resuscitated.
“Go into perdition” discloses that he will not live forever on earth, neither can he rule forever, because his destiny will be that of being cast into the lake of fire (19.20, 20.10).
His being “was, and is not, and is about to come” is a clever counterfeiting of God “who is and who was and who is to come” (cf. 1.4,8; 4.8).
“And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder”—And this wonderment will eventually lead them to worship the beast (13.12). Only those whom God has chosen will be kept. All whose names have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be preserved by God and kept from worshiping the beast.
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed" (Rev. 13.12).
17.9 is the same as 13.18; except that in 13.18 it says that the mind that has wisdom can count the number of the beast, whereas in 17.9 it states that the mind of wisdom is to know the heads of the beast.
"And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth" (Rev. 17.9).
"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six" (Rev. 13.18).
The seven heads have double meaning; they point to (1) place, and (2) person.
(1) AS A PLACE, the seven heads are seven mountains. The heads of the earth are mountains, which also give the impression of strength or power (see Num. 21.20; Jer. 22.6; Amos 1.2, 9.3).
“Rome was in John’s age usually called the seven-hilled city”, said Dr. Woodworth. Many of the ancient Roman poets in their poetry proclaimed Rome as the seven-hilled city. Someone has noticed that for about five hundred years after the time of John, the Roman poets unanimously called Rome the seven-hilled city. There was once a Roman gold metal which showed a woman sitting on seven hills. Even the coin of Emperor Vespasian, as described by Captain Smyth (Roman Coins, page 310), represented “Rome seated on seven hills; at the base Romulus and Remus suckled by the wolf; in front, the Tiber personified.” *
* Robert Govett, The Apocalypse Expounded. London: Chas. J. Thynne, 1920, p. 442.
The poet Horace once said, “The gods, who look with favour on the seven hills.” And another poet Tibullus said this: “Ye bulls, feed on herbage of the seven hills.”
Now the names of the seven hills are these: Aventine, Coelian, Esquiline, Capitoline, Palatine, Quirinal, and Viminal.
(2) AS TO PERSON, these seven mountains are also seven kings, for kings are heads of the peoples. While the heads of the earth (that is, the mountains) are contemporary and continuous, the heads of the peoples are temporary and successive to one another. This double concept of head as being both of the earth and of the people may be demonstrated in one particular passage of Isaiah: “The head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin” (7.8,9).
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the beast is the devil.
The dragon is Satan, the Devil, the Serpent. The first beast is the Antichrist. The second beast is the False Prophet. Don't get these mixed up.
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God calls her a harlot in the book of Hosea
God calls religious Rome a harlot too in Revelation 17. God will be judge you by the way you treat Israel. All I ever hear from you is how much Israel is a harlot, completely overlooking the great harlot of religious Rome. Israel is being attacked on many fronts in the middle east.
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How then would it be possible for 144000 Christians to keep there virginity?
Though this may be impossible for you which is why God says it is better someone such as yourself be married, there are some people who can remain virgins to devote themselves to the Lord and prefer to do so, like Paul did. Don't be offended for it gives glory to God.
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Luke 20.35 is talking about glorified bodies in heaven & 1 Cor. 7.7 is talking about special circumstances that were then because of the persecution
"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Luke 20.35).
Christians may have a foretaste of this today for we have resurrection life now!
"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that" (1 Cor. 7.7).
Christians are persecuted today, and those who remain to be virgins like Paul, do not do so just because of persecution, but because it gives more time for study and to do the work for the Church. That is the reason.
Judging by 14.1 here, those whom God has given such a gift amount to only 144,000 (cf. Luke 20.35, 1 Cor. 7.7).
Think of these 144,000 as the most virgin of virgins as well as Christians who will be closest to Christ.
Matt. 19.10 Jesus' disciples then said to him, "Then it is better not to marry!"
11 "Not everyone can accept this statement," Jesus said. "Only those whom God helps. 12 Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made that way by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone who can, accept this statement."
You may not be able to accept these words of Christ.
Since Jesus is talking about virginity, this agrees with the 144,000 virgins in Rev. 14. Again, we see, "the Lamb standing" (Rev. 14.1).
In response to when I said, "Surely, more than 144,000 Christians do not worship idols or follow evil doctrines," you said "naw". Why so hostile to Christians?
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John does not se specifically the 144000 in 7:1-2, however, since he does se the Lamb and 144000 with him in14:1, of which the is no article before the number 144000.
The Greek rules are when there is no indefinite article then the word that seems to miss it is speaking of a specific and therefore refers to the 144000 in 7:5-8
John specifically saw and specifically heard since he said he saw and heard, then described what he saw and what he heard, but we have been over this several times. I quoted John seeing. Why then read more into what you think he didn't see? Would it not be to promote your false teaching? Indeed. Don't let your petty self get the better of you. The article is found in KJV, RSV and ASV as was shown, so you are going against the best translations, and you are repeating yourself when the evidence pointed against your idea. The burden of the proof then is on you to show otherwise.
Your posting style is a problem because it is sinning bearing false witness. You make it difficult for people to know what you underline is your idea or if you are quoting me:
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Rev. 12:5-10 is represented as the... right next to a quote of mine that you underlined... Rev. 12.5-10 does not refer to the first seal...
To which I had responded at length to show that you were wrong. Please review what was said as I see you did not respond to it, but quoted yourself as though it was me, which I found to be discourteous and sloppy.
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That is what the first seal is.
You said "That is what the first seal is" in response to my saying "Christ sitting on the white horse with a bow that has shot an arrow giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross". This happened almost 2000 years ago. But then you contradicted yourself, saying "I am referring this to when the Messiah shall be cut off in the last week in Daniels seventy weeks as told in Dan. 9:25-27".
Since in Dan. 9.25-27, Christ has not returned yet, it is not the Messiah that is cut off, but Israel, for it says "He [Antichrist] will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler" (v.27).
You are accusing Jesus of causing desecration and terrible deeds. I thought I was talking to a Christian before who just had some false teachings that he needed to be delivered from which I was trying to help you. Now I realize I am talking to someone who is pretending to be a Christian, what the Bible calls the "tares" who try to look like the saved wheat or try to impersonate us. Because of this pretending, I will have to remove you from the forums in the good conscience.
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The first four seals span from the Crucifixion to the reign of the anti-christ and the false prophet. Rev 12 spans from the birth of Israel to this present day.
The fifth seal and the sixth seal also precede the Antichrist reign in the 7 year Tribulation, for the 6th seal leads up to first rapture at Rev. 7.9, and first rapture causes the reaction of Satan because he knows his time is short. Then you say the events to follow in Rev. 12ff already happened. How strange! Your ordering is all a mess. Talking to you further to help you will serve no further purpose, for your ideas are not by the Holy Spirit. Spend the time to understand what is said here.
Genesis 1 speaks of eternity past, so it is reasonable to consider most of Revelation yet to be fulfilled in the future, and certainly not later events happening before former events in the book.
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I see the sixth seal being part of the sixth bowl. My theory is that I believe it is possible for these two witnesses to be responsible for the seven bowls that God pours out on the earth.The premise for this is that these two witnesses are in the same time span or sixth trumpet as the four angels who have been bound at the great river Euphrates in verse 9:14which coincide with the sixth bowl. Also, we don’t read of the Judgment bowls in this great sign of this vision. Therefore I believe the bowls fit together into the sixth and seventh trumpet.
The sixth seal happens before the Tribulation, and we are definitely in the 6th seal now, which happens before the first trumpet of the start of the Tribulation. The bowls of the 7th trumpet are in the last 24 months of the Tribulation. The Two Witnesses are involved in the bowls because they will be killed by Satan's armies in the intensity of the bowls.
You had said Rev. 12-19 has already occurred up to today, while saying some of these events are yet to occur. This sounds like confusion. This is a contradiction and lets you pick and choose according to your flesh.
Since the Two Witnesses are going to be around for 1260 days, this will span the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets of 42 months of which the 7 bowls are poured out from the 7th trumpet. The bowls are part of this vision of John. The bowls are poured out from the 7th trumpet. This is consistent with the 7 trumpets being blown from the 6th seal.
In all sincerity, I find most of what you say to be wrong, and is not edifying to people that want to go deeper.
